Randy, Nothing is "old hat" in this endeavor. Everytime I think I can start a fire at will Mother Nature dumps 65 lbs of comet ice on my sqaw fire <img src="images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> The mark of a good instructor is the student(s) who return to share new knowledge discovered on the foundation we provide <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />