Tom_L, those are some very interesting comments about the differences between acquiring survival skills and installing mental toughness at survival school. I do believe that there are people who have a higher level of strength of character and who have a stronger desire to live when things get difficult or 'tough' than other people have. The problem here is that no survival course can prepare its students for this level of personal danger and to do so would be unethical. Surely the aim of the survival school course is to ensure that this point in their students lives is never reached (either on the survival course or real world) but to give the student the opportunity to understand that its the individuals own decision making processes and appropriate survival skills which are important to ensure a successful outcome of not becoming deceased prematurely. The attitude of the survival instructor you have detailed is in my opinion wholly incorrect and ultimately useless to prepare someone for a 'tough' situation anyway. It sounds as though this instructor never got past the first and second chapters of the U.S. Army Survival Manual FM 21-76 or Wisemans SAS survival guide which concentrates on the psychology of the will to live. In my honest opinion I really don't think that these survival schools which concentrate of the 'Strength of Character' approach serve much in relation to survival ability anyway. I would suggest that people should save their money and do something like a PADI Scuba course or a rope climbing course. This type of course will teach planning, procedure and team work and allows individuals to learn about their decision making planning and allows the student to be competent in a outdoor pursuit. These courses are also very enjoyable and I think will allow anyone interested in outdoor pursuits or survival techniques to achieve more by being confident an 'unnatural environment' situation rather than having to suffer doing push ups in the mud to satisfy the ego of some green beret wannabe. As for being 'tough', I shouldn't really need to be because having learned the principles of PPPPPP, hopefully there isn't a situation where I would need to become a 'tough guy'.

PS. I wonder what that survival instructor would think of the ABCDE approach.

A. Accept the situation.

B. Brew up a cup of sweet tea if time allows.

C. Consider all possibilities.

D. Decide on a Plan.

E. Execute your Plan.

"I was killing Jedi when being a Jedi meant something." - Jabba Du Hutt....

Thats why my survival kit has a mirror. Fry the SOB with his own stare.......

Could be that a lot of schools are trying to create a "State Dependant Learning" Experience.
This is like stress-fire for firearms training.
It has been established that people will react as they have been trained.
This is actually a sound concept.

The only criticism I have is training should not create any deliberate danger. Discomfort sure, psychological fear/panic possibly, but foreseeable risk of death provides no training benefit.

Even in the Ranger school survival training at Camp Rudder (Eglin AFB,Florida) a compass is provided. Here these folks are playing for keeps and still have basic survival equipment (knife,canteen,compass).

In the military for instance live fire exercises are controlled as to minimize the danger.

You could create just as much discomfort with risking life and limb, by breaking the trek into segments for example.

Lastly I agree, if a school will not let you bring a water,watch,compass,knife etc. then a good survival instinct is to put distance between you and them.

There are better and safer ways of pushing the limit, skydiving,rock climbing,scuba etc.

This school evidently hails from Boulder, CO. Right around the corner from me. I wouldn't normally associate these tough Rambo style instructors people have been talking about with Boulder. Rather, I'd expect the Boulder style to encompass things like chanting whilst throwing dandelions in the air during adverse conditions.

When I first read this story in the local paper a few days ago I was thinking it was so one-sided in presentation that there had to be more to the story than was being told. Something that would in some way support the BOSS position. But as time goes on and I read other's comments in this thread, I have to agree ... those BOSS guys must be total nimrods. Training - and that is what this course was - should entail practice and learning for "the real thing" later on, should it ever happen to you. There might be some discomfort during the course. However, it seems like they artificially made the training worse than the real thing, with a terrible outcome. Who in their right mind, while trying to survive in a desert, would NOT try to carry as much water as they could should they find some? If I were lost in a desert and stumbled across a water supply, I think I'd just park my butt right there and concentrate most further efforts on attracting attention to myself. Hopefully they'd find me sitting there, cup full of water in my hand, thanking them for the rescue. Hiking onward and abandoning what might well be your top priority for desert survival is some pretty poor "training" IMHO.

Do you think that 'mental toughness' is all that much of a trait that has been trained into people, or was it there, in certain people, all the time?

Some people just can't do it, no matter what, and I really doubt that anyone could train them into it, ever. (Try to imagine Paris Hilton in a really tough situation without any help from anyone.)

Others just do what needs to be done. They don't discuss it, they don't ask for advice, they just step up and do it.

Most of the people here at ETS probably wouldn't go to BOSS. If there was a poll, I would bet most of the people here would think the premise was... well... silly.

Maybe I should ask and see...

Sue

Sounds silly to me...

I went to "BOSS" - sorta---USCG Boot Camp, MLE BO School, and working with the 2nd, 7th, & 10th Special Forces Groups AND with the 2nd & 3rd Ranger Battalions.

The mental toughness and determination is either there or it isn't....But under adversity, most people will rise to the occassion and do what has to be done,,,,others will just survive as long as they can, but eventually they will drop by the wayside. It truly is an internal trait,,most have it but some don't-survival of the fittest.