link

Again?

Thats what? 2 in the past year? 3? Waiver or not, that track record should be sufficient to show that they are negligent in their duties.

A survival school that kills its students. Thats pathetic.

From the Foxnews story

What I want to know of course is; were the survival school instructors 'Special Forces' types or were they pretending to be 'Special Forces' types just like in the Hollywood movies or on the Discovery Channel? Was the student going to get a boy scout badge for passing the course or is there more going on here than meets the eye. A lucrative contract overseas maybe?

From the Foxnews story

This is just unbelievably ignorant, this I suggest should be grounds for manslaughter charges. Ignorance is no defense against culpability nor is a liability clause.



If the students are not even allowed to carry a watch, which absolutely fundamental to any survival course kit together with a compass, even if it a SERE model, and a PSK on a 28 day course, what is this survival course fundamentally trying to achieve? Is it to allow its students to feel encroaching death through ignorance. Someone at this school has been watching to much 'Man V Wild'. Even Bear Grylls knows to carry a watch. All a rather pointless exercise anyway if that is the case.


As for the survival school course matra. It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

This is a followup story to the guy who died on the BOSS course last year.

BOSS is one of the oldest survival schools in the US.
This does not excuse their screw up but they are no fly by night operation.

BOSS is primarily a primitive type school so their training does not involve a lot of gear. Students are expected to make and find what they need. Maybe they should have offered this as an advanced course with a prerequisit of taking more basic courses.

While BOSS was definitely party to this students demise I can only wonder how much previous training he had before this trip.
Perhaps he was taking a course that was over his head and BOSS should have known this before they started the course.

The BOSS staff should have noticed the students deterioration and pulled the plug on the course for this student.

The "more you know the less you need" mantra in quite valid and widely accepted but it turns out to be an ironic twist to this sad tale. This phrase or its philosophy are ubiquitous to almost all primitive schools.
Personally I agree with this mantra to some degree. Many people can carry plenty of gear and still get in trouble but the folks with experience and training can make the best of a situation with less. In fact in many cases their training helps them avoid the crisis all together.

I have just been on the the BOSS website. BOSS philosophy



The problem is that this Survival Course in which the student died was 28 days in duration passing through very difficult and inhospitable terrain - the Utah desert. Desert regions are some of the most difficult and dangerous terrain on the planet probably just after the arctic and antarctic regions. Who in there right mind would head of into the desert without any form of navigation be it instructor or student. What kind of crap does it mean when they say that backpacks are a recent invention and that to get 'back to nature' you won't need one on the course. Even the 3500 year old ice-man found in the Alps would have been better equipped than these people. To pretend that you are leaving the modern world to become one with nature by leaving your watch, your compass and your backpack behind is absolute B***s**t. The problem with this Primitive Survival School is that it seems they do not realize just how sophisticated the primitive people and the kit they carried, actually was. Primitive people have always used any advancement in survival technology. If they didn't there would have been no stone age, no bronze age, no iron age.

Maybe some of the instructors would do well to read;

The Art of Travel or Shifts and Contrivances Available in Wild Countries (1872)

available at http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/gutenberg/1/4/6/8/14681/14681-h/14681-h.htm

for some sensible advice on how to survive in difficult terrain without all the so called modern day backpacking contrivances or is 130 years old advice and technology still just a bit too modern.

"The guides did not want him to fail the $3,175 course."

With all the guides' "help", he still failed, didn't he? Did he get his money back?

BOSS says then can only drink water they find, then take them where there is no water.

"...participants can drink water at the source only and cannot carry it with them."

They have a container, yet can't take it with them. Smart!

"He seemed capable of completing the hike to camp that evening."
Exhaustion, cramps, vomiting, slurred speech, delirium, collapse, cardiac arrest... "BOSS instructors can give water based on their assessment of a camper's needs." Isn't DEAD a little late, after a poor "assessment"?

This whole situation was stupid beyond belief. All BOSS did was take money to put their customers into a dangerous situation. It didn't really teach them anything that they might be able to use in the future. That "toughing it out" crap is just that, and nothing else.

I almost said that they would be better off teaching their victims to use their brains, but with BOSS, that would truly be a case of the blind leading the blind.

Sue

Very few people are ever pushed to their limits to see just where these limits are. Those that are ie: Navy Seals, have people there to save them when they pass out underwater etc. If those people fail they are court martialed, punished, demoted and even jailed. A "survival" school can legitimatly develop a person's mind and survival mindset by pushing limits but to me it's primary goal should be training how to totally avoid those limits. This outfit seems to have evolved into a New Age self help cult designed to instill self esteem/ self awareness etc. rather than skills. Testing your limits should come at the end of a course when all you have learned can be put to good use reinforcing one's confidence and survival perpective. Allowing your client to die from lack of water just means you need to take a true survival course so that you don't go on negligently killing people

Ah, ok.

Changes things a little bit. They are still just stupid, rather than having gotten stupider.

EDIT with a question: Does anyone know if there are records anywhere of how many students have died as part of civilian and military survival training in the past, say, 20 years? Maybe broken down by school, season and cause of death?

I'm asking becuase I first learned about BOSS about 15 years ago, and they've seemed to have a reputation for killing students. That's how I learned about them, actually. I'm curious to see how others stack up.

Apparently the guides from this school would do well to read Codin Lundin's book and instead of depriving their students from water, make them drink even more than they want. A safer way to test your limits would be to try drinking like a camel for 10 min...

I was going to reply to this thread with a long rant, but Susan already said pretty much everything for me. There should be a point at which one of the guides says, “Okay, he’s at the point of no return.” (And that point should preferably be before death.) Last I checked, people do not spontaneously recover from dehydration hallucinations.

I always felt like when I signed something acknowleding that I'm doing something dangerous, possibly fatal, that I was essentially signing a CYA note for the guide. I expect them to do their best, using prudent judgement, and understand that there are some things beyond their control. However, I wasn't signing something that said, "and when I get in a really bad situation, and I'm going to die, please don't even try to help me"

I don't think disclaimers are meant to create a negligent attitude among the guides, they still should attempt to run a safe adventure, it just covers them if TSHTF and someone doesn't make it back even with reasonable efforts on their part.

We're going rafting in a couple weeks, and some stretches are going to be Class V rapids. We'll all sign the "I could die" waiver, but, we'd all expect our guides to try to get us back in the raft if we get tossed. I don't picture them just watching us float down through the rapids saying "well, he came here for the adventure, we told him he might die"

Pathetic situation. Very poor risk management. Managing risk is one of the biggest things that you learn when you take any sort of outdoor leadership training. Duh.

Bentirran,
There is no doubt that BOSS messed up big time and was responsible for the students death. But I am not sure that this type of course has no place.

I think we may have slightly different philosophies about gearing up; me a bit on the light side and you on the heavier end of the scale. This type of survival course has always appealled to me for many reasons including a desire to learn the everyday knowledge and skills our ancestors used and we have since lost.

Learning primitive skills will surely make one's survival abilities stronger and learning to make do with little or no gear might be very useful in a real SHTF situation. That said this type of course should be an advanced course and the instructors should have had back-up emergency gear and plans for when and if something goes wrong. Heck they should have had some way to "pull the plug" and get a medivac to airlift the sick student out. The school's primitive philosophy should not be so written in stone as to kill or endanger the students.


I just went and re-read the story. The most disturbing thing is that they should have given him the emergency water they were carrying. Their unwillingness to let the student fail caused them to fail as trip leaders.

Primitive skills are great, I’m all for it. But that has nothing to do with going without water for 10 hours in 100 degree temperatures. Teach them how to carry water in an animal skin, not to just do without it.

From what I have read, I'd say that BOSS teaches one very little about survival. BOSS teaches you how to push your limits, "find yourself", cope with adversity, flirt with death and commune with mutha' nature.

They also teach you that staying hydrated is not important. That’s not survival.

Can you imagine paying someone over $3,000 to put up with that crap?

He didn't get the "I survived" t-shirt.

I agree; if this is what they are teaching then they are going to get more folks killed either on the course itself or afterwards when a student who passes the course takes their poor training out on their own.

Yes staying hydrated is one of the very most important skill to learn. The fact that they were teaching almost the opposite makes them very irresponsible.


Just a side note to another comment regarding Outward Bound; they also lost a student in the desert that same week.

IIRC, it was a heat/dehydration related death also. She was seperated from the group and died with water still in her bottle...

some thoughts:

1) assuming this business strategy is still ongoing: how about TELLing the students that emergency ration and water are available, but if you drink, you fail and no refunds

2) regarding the last sentence, the student (former) mentioned fear of desert, really, it should be fear of irresponsible and simply stupid guides

3) i don't think boss has mentioned any actions taken against the guides in this case

4) note to self: if hiking partner mentions he's a graduate/guide of BOSS, stay the hell away from that guy.

5) really don't think that liability waiver is going to stand up in court.

If someone really wnats to run classes like these, I think basic medical training should be mandatory. Sounds like pretty obvious signs. If they weren`t completely sure, there are simple ways to test how far it`s gone.

Then basic rules for desert survival are:
1) Carry as much water as you can comfortably carry. Then add some more.
2) Cover up. That means broad brimmed hat, long trousers, long sleeved shirt, sunblock and sun glasses.
3) GET OUT OF THE SUN!!! Even the locals don't go out in the mid-day sun. Take a hint.....
4) If some moron says that you ain't allowed this or that, walk away from him. Map, compass, watch, signal mirror, knife, whistle etc arn't luxurys. They are basic life support. If he gets persistant, take it that he's going to try to hurt you. So then it's him or you. So do as your spirit bids...
5) Remember that "Liability Wavier" means: We Can Do Anything We Want To You.

Its a survival course. Dead=failed. Student dies=instructor failed.

Sounds like macho, Rambo nonsense. Talk about that stuff here and you'd get run off. Criminally negligent doesn't begin to describe it.

I'd be intersted to read the opinions of DR or another moderator... wonder why they haven't piped in on this one?

"Does anyone know if there are records anywhere of how many students have died as part of civilian and military survival training in the past, say, 20 years? Maybe broken down by school, season and cause of death?"

Try this one: "Boot Camp for Kids: Torturing Teens for Fun & Profit" at http://www.nospank.net/boot.htm It has 179 incidents, and that's probably just the tip of a bloody iceberg.

One camp had 16 deaths!

Sue

It's a real shame that survival schools so often turn into a fake boot camp, usually run by Rambo wannabes who for the most part don't even have any serious outdoor or military background. I only thought about taking a survival class once. It was actually supposed to be pretty good and the main instructor is considered a major authority in his field, also teaching various branches of the armed forces etc. Fortunately, I met the instructor in person before signing up. One of the most arrogant persons I've ever met. What's worse, it was evident even from the brief conversation we had (in fact it was more of a macho monologue on his part) that much of what he's teaching isn't very practical, let alone safe and might well get you sick, hurt or killed in a real survival situation. Needless to say, I didn't take that class and I'm really happy about that. I don't need to spend any of my money to listen to some fake tough guy and his "motivational" ramblings.

I have actually found this website absolutely shocking. I didn't know things were this bad. These boot camps for Kids and the youth criminal justice system have even come to the attention of Amnesty International. Amazed!! Torture, humiliation, sexual abuse, rape, murder and execution.

From the link; http://www.nospank.net/boot.htm


This guy who this is quoted from must have Sadistic personality disorder and yet is still allowed to continue to work with children. Where is the oversight for these child justice programs or doesn't anyone actually care anymore.


These are difficult and possibly disturbed 'problem' American children not International terrorists or enemy combatants being detained. It appears there is more oversight for the latter.

Re Tom_L



I am actually intrigued by your post. Can you go into some details about the fake tough guy's approach to survival training and his "motivational" ramblings, obviously not naming any names of course. I am just interested in the instructors philosophy and approach and what you found so objectionable.

Why do so many survival technique schools seem to have to make their students suffer physically and mentally rather than teaching and mentoring the specific survival skills in the field. Subjects such as navigation, firelighting skills, shelter building and signalling do not require their clients to first be at deaths door before this knowledge is imparted from the instructor to the student. I'm at a loss to know why many survival schools take this approach and why this happens myself.

Well, that guy basically claims he can teach you to survive in any environment without any tools at all. He doesn't even allow a pocket knife in his class. Everything is supposed to be improvised on the spot, though from what I've heard it doesn't work all that well. Especially as the "expert" doesn't give much practical advice but just "motivates" the students with tough talk and bravado instead. Which I imagine could be quite funny as although he doesn't allow his students to bring along any gear, food or water he himself is always well supplied with everything. Nor does he actively take part in any of the activities. He does not even demonstrate most of the techniques he teaches, he just tells the students what to do and pontificates on their errors.

He also likes to split his classes in groups and endorses fierce competition between them. In the sense of having them do various tasks and the group that does worst (takes last place) is always punished in some way. He has the losers do stuff like pushups in deep mud or not allowing them any water for the rest of the day etc. I've heard this kind of competition leads to serious conflicts, especially as his classes take a week and pressure really builds up between the participants eventually.

Having talked to the guy and observed his class briefly I must say I've not been impressed by the quality of instruction. He seemed the kind of guy who talks the talk but has never really walked the walk. The classes are very hard on the students, unnecessarily so. By the end of the week most are in a seriously bad shape. I'm not sure they pick up many useful skills either. It all looked more like some kind of a perverse "hell week", the only real purpose of which is to boost the instructor's ego.

Re Tom_L

Sounds like this survival school instructor was a member of the First Earth Battalion who could kill a goat with a single stare.
A most dangerous Jedi Warrior if there ever was one!!

I'm starting to think that many people, including many "survival instructors" equate learning survival with experiencing physical discomfort and learning to "tough it out". I would call it the "Mind Over Matter School of Survival".

Perhaps some people would benefit from being forced to learn to "just be tough" but that's really missing the point. Better to teach people to be prepared and learn to use their brain, and the skills to use their tools.

Personally, I already know how to be tough.

Couldn't agree more. Mental toughness is a big factor but it has to be genuine and it's one attribute that's not developed easily. Nor could it be taught in a few days of a survival class. I've met quite a few really tough people in my life. Coming from all kinds of background, farmers, lumberjacks, soldiers, LEO's, even quite ordinary people that you'd never think had the capacity to stand up to great adversity, yet they did it when time came. One thing they all have in common is that they tend to be pretty quiet, kind, nonobtrusive individuals. It really separates them from the phony tough who need to brag about themselves to feed their confidence.

Anyway, there is only so much toughness can help in a survival situation. You can be the toughest guy on the planet but if you fail to find water, you'll die. If you get seriously sick, you'll die. Maybe die with a grin, but end up dead all the same. That's why I think survival schools that emphasize toughness over skill are pretty much out of place.

Tom_L, those are some very interesting comments about the differences between acquiring survival skills and installing mental toughness at survival school. I do believe that there are people who have a higher level of strength of character and who have a stronger desire to live when things get difficult or 'tough' than other people have. The problem here is that no survival course can prepare its students for this level of personal danger and to do so would be unethical. Surely the aim of the survival school course is to ensure that this point in their students lives is never reached (either on the survival course or real world) but to give the student the opportunity to understand that its the individuals own decision making processes and appropriate survival skills which are important to ensure a successful outcome of not becoming deceased prematurely. The attitude of the survival instructor you have detailed is in my opinion wholly incorrect and ultimately useless to prepare someone for a 'tough' situation anyway. It sounds as though this instructor never got past the first and second chapters of the U.S. Army Survival Manual FM 21-76 or Wisemans SAS survival guide which concentrates on the psychology of the will to live. In my honest opinion I really don't think that these survival schools which concentrate of the 'Strength of Character' approach serve much in relation to survival ability anyway. I would suggest that people should save their money and do something like a PADI Scuba course or a rope climbing course. This type of course will teach planning, procedure and team work and allows individuals to learn about their decision making planning and allows the student to be competent in a outdoor pursuit. These courses are also very enjoyable and I think will allow anyone interested in outdoor pursuits or survival techniques to achieve more by being confident an 'unnatural environment' situation rather than having to suffer doing push ups in the mud to satisfy the ego of some green beret wannabe. As for being 'tough', I shouldn't really need to be because having learned the principles of PPPPPP, hopefully there isn't a situation where I would need to become a 'tough guy'.

PS. I wonder what that survival instructor would think of the ABCDE approach.

A. Accept the situation.

B. Brew up a cup of sweet tea if time allows.

C. Consider all possibilities.

D. Decide on a Plan.

E. Execute your Plan.

"I was killing Jedi when being a Jedi meant something." - Jabba Du Hutt....

Thats why my survival kit has a mirror. Fry the SOB with his own stare.......

Could be that a lot of schools are trying to create a "State Dependant Learning" Experience.
This is like stress-fire for firearms training.
It has been established that people will react as they have been trained.
This is actually a sound concept.

The only criticism I have is training should not create any deliberate danger. Discomfort sure, psychological fear/panic possibly, but foreseeable risk of death provides no training benefit.

Even in the Ranger school survival training at Camp Rudder (Eglin AFB,Florida) a compass is provided. Here these folks are playing for keeps and still have basic survival equipment (knife,canteen,compass).

In the military for instance live fire exercises are controlled as to minimize the danger.

You could create just as much discomfort with risking life and limb, by breaking the trek into segments for example.

Lastly I agree, if a school will not let you bring a water,watch,compass,knife etc. then a good survival instinct is to put distance between you and them.

There are better and safer ways of pushing the limit, skydiving,rock climbing,scuba etc.

This school evidently hails from Boulder, CO. Right around the corner from me. I wouldn't normally associate these tough Rambo style instructors people have been talking about with Boulder. Rather, I'd expect the Boulder style to encompass things like chanting whilst throwing dandelions in the air during adverse conditions.

When I first read this story in the local paper a few days ago I was thinking it was so one-sided in presentation that there had to be more to the story than was being told. Something that would in some way support the BOSS position. But as time goes on and I read other's comments in this thread, I have to agree ... those BOSS guys must be total nimrods. Training - and that is what this course was - should entail practice and learning for "the real thing" later on, should it ever happen to you. There might be some discomfort during the course. However, it seems like they artificially made the training worse than the real thing, with a terrible outcome. Who in their right mind, while trying to survive in a desert, would NOT try to carry as much water as they could should they find some? If I were lost in a desert and stumbled across a water supply, I think I'd just park my butt right there and concentrate most further efforts on attracting attention to myself. Hopefully they'd find me sitting there, cup full of water in my hand, thanking them for the rescue. Hiking onward and abandoning what might well be your top priority for desert survival is some pretty poor "training" IMHO.

Do you think that 'mental toughness' is all that much of a trait that has been trained into people, or was it there, in certain people, all the time?

Some people just can't do it, no matter what, and I really doubt that anyone could train them into it, ever. (Try to imagine Paris Hilton in a really tough situation without any help from anyone.)

Others just do what needs to be done. They don't discuss it, they don't ask for advice, they just step up and do it.

Most of the people here at ETS probably wouldn't go to BOSS. If there was a poll, I would bet most of the people here would think the premise was... well... silly.

Maybe I should ask and see...

Sue

Sounds silly to me...

I went to "BOSS" - sorta---USCG Boot Camp, MLE BO School, and working with the 2nd, 7th, & 10th Special Forces Groups AND with the 2nd & 3rd Ranger Battalions.

The mental toughness and determination is either there or it isn't....But under adversity, most people will rise to the occassion and do what has to be done,,,,others will just survive as long as they can, but eventually they will drop by the wayside. It truly is an internal trait,,most have it but some don't-survival of the fittest.