Its a survival course. Dead=failed. Student dies=instructor failed.

Sounds like macho, Rambo nonsense. Talk about that stuff here and you'd get run off. Criminally negligent doesn't begin to describe it.

I'd be intersted to read the opinions of DR or another moderator... wonder why they haven't piped in on this one?

"Does anyone know if there are records anywhere of how many students have died as part of civilian and military survival training in the past, say, 20 years? Maybe broken down by school, season and cause of death?"

Try this one: "Boot Camp for Kids: Torturing Teens for Fun & Profit" at http://www.nospank.net/boot.htm It has 179 incidents, and that's probably just the tip of a bloody iceberg.

One camp had 16 deaths!

Sue

It's a real shame that survival schools so often turn into a fake boot camp, usually run by Rambo wannabes who for the most part don't even have any serious outdoor or military background. I only thought about taking a survival class once. It was actually supposed to be pretty good and the main instructor is considered a major authority in his field, also teaching various branches of the armed forces etc. Fortunately, I met the instructor in person before signing up. One of the most arrogant persons I've ever met. What's worse, it was evident even from the brief conversation we had (in fact it was more of a macho monologue on his part) that much of what he's teaching isn't very practical, let alone safe and might well get you sick, hurt or killed in a real survival situation. Needless to say, I didn't take that class and I'm really happy about that. I don't need to spend any of my money to listen to some fake tough guy and his "motivational" ramblings.

I have actually found this website absolutely shocking. I didn't know things were this bad. These boot camps for Kids and the youth criminal justice system have even come to the attention of Amnesty International. Amazed!! Torture, humiliation, sexual abuse, rape, murder and execution.

From the link; http://www.nospank.net/boot.htm


This guy who this is quoted from must have Sadistic personality disorder and yet is still allowed to continue to work with children. Where is the oversight for these child justice programs or doesn't anyone actually care anymore.


These are difficult and possibly disturbed 'problem' American children not International terrorists or enemy combatants being detained. It appears there is more oversight for the latter.

Re Tom_L



I am actually intrigued by your post. Can you go into some details about the fake tough guy's approach to survival training and his "motivational" ramblings, obviously not naming any names of course. I am just interested in the instructors philosophy and approach and what you found so objectionable.

Why do so many survival technique schools seem to have to make their students suffer physically and mentally rather than teaching and mentoring the specific survival skills in the field. Subjects such as navigation, firelighting skills, shelter building and signalling do not require their clients to first be at deaths door before this knowledge is imparted from the instructor to the student. I'm at a loss to know why many survival schools take this approach and why this happens myself.

Well, that guy basically claims he can teach you to survive in any environment without any tools at all. He doesn't even allow a pocket knife in his class. Everything is supposed to be improvised on the spot, though from what I've heard it doesn't work all that well. Especially as the "expert" doesn't give much practical advice but just "motivates" the students with tough talk and bravado instead. Which I imagine could be quite funny as although he doesn't allow his students to bring along any gear, food or water he himself is always well supplied with everything. Nor does he actively take part in any of the activities. He does not even demonstrate most of the techniques he teaches, he just tells the students what to do and pontificates on their errors.

He also likes to split his classes in groups and endorses fierce competition between them. In the sense of having them do various tasks and the group that does worst (takes last place) is always punished in some way. He has the losers do stuff like pushups in deep mud or not allowing them any water for the rest of the day etc. I've heard this kind of competition leads to serious conflicts, especially as his classes take a week and pressure really builds up between the participants eventually.

Having talked to the guy and observed his class briefly I must say I've not been impressed by the quality of instruction. He seemed the kind of guy who talks the talk but has never really walked the walk. The classes are very hard on the students, unnecessarily so. By the end of the week most are in a seriously bad shape. I'm not sure they pick up many useful skills either. It all looked more like some kind of a perverse "hell week", the only real purpose of which is to boost the instructor's ego.

Re Tom_L

Sounds like this survival school instructor was a member of the First Earth Battalion who could kill a goat with a single stare.
A most dangerous Jedi Warrior if there ever was one!!

I'm starting to think that many people, including many "survival instructors" equate learning survival with experiencing physical discomfort and learning to "tough it out". I would call it the "Mind Over Matter School of Survival".

Perhaps some people would benefit from being forced to learn to "just be tough" but that's really missing the point. Better to teach people to be prepared and learn to use their brain, and the skills to use their tools.

Personally, I already know how to be tough.

Couldn't agree more. Mental toughness is a big factor but it has to be genuine and it's one attribute that's not developed easily. Nor could it be taught in a few days of a survival class. I've met quite a few really tough people in my life. Coming from all kinds of background, farmers, lumberjacks, soldiers, LEO's, even quite ordinary people that you'd never think had the capacity to stand up to great adversity, yet they did it when time came. One thing they all have in common is that they tend to be pretty quiet, kind, nonobtrusive individuals. It really separates them from the phony tough who need to brag about themselves to feed their confidence.

Anyway, there is only so much toughness can help in a survival situation. You can be the toughest guy on the planet but if you fail to find water, you'll die. If you get seriously sick, you'll die. Maybe die with a grin, but end up dead all the same. That's why I think survival schools that emphasize toughness over skill are pretty much out of place.