Britain wants to punish people for crimes they "might" commit. Scary stuff...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6261791.stm
From the article:
"The orders, ... , would put curfews or other restrictions on potential offenders, who might have no criminal convictions."

It's not just the direction in which we are going, but the speed in which we are proceeding to our own enslavement !

*shudders* This should make benterrian happy.

At least there people who oppose it. Although they are lining up to be first in line for this program- it might take a few years, but the UK could do it. I wonder what this will mean as far as thier relationship with the EU goes- I think this kind of thing is mentioned as vaguely naughty by the EU charter, but it's been a long time since I read that.

The next step is concentration camps, because people who get slapped with this sure as hell will eventually have something charged against them.

I know that BBC english is somewhat different to the NBC version, but you really need to read the artical through. We have a problem in the UK with certain individuals who need to be controlled, either for their own good, or the good of the people around them. This is one of the methods being used.
We have an independant Judicary in the UK. They don't permit misuse of such powers.

Wow... scary indeed. I remember watching Minority Report and thinking, "Jeez, this stuff is pretty far-fetched."

Not so far-fetched anymore.

Do they not already have the ability to charge you retro-actively for a crime,ie-we made this law yesterday-we know you violated it a month ago,so now we are charging you with the offense today.I know I heard it somewhere.

"We are willing to do it relation to Anti-social Behaviour Orders, why not in relation to other sorts of offences as well."

If I recall the Nazis locked up those whom they considered anti-social as well.

Very scary. It's a slippery slope.

Leigh, you have a much rosier opinion of The Establishment than I do.

I guess then I will be probably be one of the first in line for this program, but the truth is that these politicians like Dr John Reid ('patronising bastard') and Prime Minister Tony Bliar will be long gone before they get around to get me. The next Prime Minister Gordon Brown is a sensible man. I'm sure he will get the message about how silly these ideas are.

Anyway Tony Bliar is heading for the Jail in the not to distant future for his corrupt misdemeanors.

The undermining of civil liberties in the UK is indeed worrying. According to this scaremongering articleit's not much better in the US - you have your Guantánamo already.

Guantanamo houses mainly foreign terrorists taken in arms against the United States and its allies. I didn't see anything in the proposed UK law about that. Rather, the UK plan seems to concentrate on domestic criminals and anti-social types who might pose a threat in the future. So it's not really a valid comparison.

we have 10 "escape & evasion" prison camps across this country already and FEMA is building 10 more at this time, for "emergency relocation/evacuation" purposes.

No one has come forward as a witness that the E&E camps are actually training troops, as yet!!!???

It has never been far fetched. This proposal is a very tiny leap away from being about "enemies of the state", "thought criminals", "state traitors", etc. Now we just talk about doing it because they MIGHT be a danger.

Wildman I've read the same claims and I've had the same thought running through my head for 18 months- why didn't they put the Katrina refugees into these relocation facilities?

Fortunately the U.S. has not slid that far down the slope yet. What you are referring to are known as "ex post facto" laws and thankfully they are still considered unconstitutional in this country (at least for now). If it was legal when you did it but is made illegal after the fact, you cannot constitutionally be charged with violating the law for your earlier action.

i don't know, but i can think of several reasons!

Does the system of Presidential Executive orders have any democratic oversight from the Congress or Senate?
The executive order, which is currently in place, which created the Federal Emergency Management Agency appears to already have much more severe powers than anything that can be implemented let alone thought about by even the most Machiavellian politician here in the UK.

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/12148.html#

The subsidiary Presidential Executive Orders E.O. 10998, E.O. 10999, E.O. 11000 are already currently US law.

They appear to allow the enforced enslavement of US citizenry under the executive powers of the President of the United States of America during an emergency.

During the recent tragedy of the Virginia Tech, why was a reported state of emergency declared in Virginia. I never did understand legally why this happened for what was a essentially a civil criminal act.

I wasn't familiar with ASBO, so I googled it and came up with the Wikipedia explanation. Kind of strange. "The type of evidence required to obtain is much wider than for criminal cases. Both hearsay evidence and anonymous testimony are admissible as evidence." Some of the 'dangers' they use ASBOs for in Britain:
* Posting illegal flyers ('Please help Fluffy get home!')
* Begging (our beggars hold up cardboard signs, what on earth are they doing in England???)
* Trying to commit suicide. Regarding this last, if they catch you trying to kill yourself several times, they can send you to prison, where you can ask one of the other inmates to throttle you and they would probably be happy to help. Are mental hospitals as passe in Britain as they are here?
* They want to include 'fare dodging', but that hasn't been updated.

Some of the "less common ASBOs":
* Two teenage boys were forbidden to wear one golf glove (I guess they split the pair).
* One teenager was forbidden to use the word 'grass'. ("I'm going out to mow the schneckledorf, Mother!"
* One teenager was forbidden to use his front door. (Servants' entry only?)
* An old man was ordered not to yell, swear or make sarcastic remarks to his neighbors. (Does this apply to Parliment?)
* Children playing games could qualify for ASBOs. (Now that must be a scary bunch of kids!)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour_order)

Wikipedia also has similar information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchhunt

Sue

I wasn't familiar with ASBO, so I googled it and came up with the Wikipedia explanation. Kind of strange. "The type of evidence required to obtain is much wider than for criminal cases. Both hearsay evidence and anonymous testimony are admissible as evidence." Some of the 'dangers' they use ASBOs for in Britain:
* Posting illegal flyers ('Please help Fluffy get home!')
* Begging (our beggars hold up cardboard signs, what on earth are they doing in England???)
* Trying to commit suicide. Regarding this last, if they catch you trying to kill yourself several times, they can send you to prison, where you can ask one of the other inmates to throttle you and they would probably be happy to help. Are mental hospitals as passe in Britain as they are here?
* They want to include 'fare dodging', but that hasn't been updated.

Some of the "less common ASBOs":
* Two teenage boys were forbidden to wear one golf glove (I guess they split the pair).
* One teenager was forbidden to use the word 'grass'. ("I'm going out to mow the schneckledorf, Mother!"
* One teenager was forbidden to use his front door. (Servants' entry only?)
* An old man was ordered not to yell, swear or make sarcastic remarks to his neighbors. (Does this apply to Parliment?)
* Children playing games could qualify for ASBOs. (Now that must be a scary bunch of kids!)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour_order)

Wikipedia also has similar information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchhunt

Sue

I've come across the same reports- a lot of it strikes me as being very similar to some of the more "exclusive" communities where they limit what color of car their members can own! Now, if where those kids was playing was cemetery, that's one thing, but to give a bunch of kids what amounts to a criminal history rather than giving them a stern talk followed by one that might include a small ticket to their parents is just asinine.

Executive orders on wikipedia

If even one tenth of this info is true, its still completely outrageous.

Hearsay and anonymous testimony are admissible!
Reminds me of the good old Stalinist Russia, where all you needed to forever get rid of your "annoying" neighbors, was a trip to your friendly local NKVD office.

Someone from England, please tell us we are missing something!?

Enemy combatants' accusations are getting our troops in trouble. That load of crock makes me think some of this stuff isn't so far fetched when our politicians use our brave men and women as pawns in their political games and the seamingly corrupt media is amplifying all this.

Sorry about the rant, but this is ridiculous!

So in effect the Congress has about as much chance overturning an Executive Order as agreeing to whether they would all agree to order a Pizza or Chinese takeaway.

No I don't. The Judicary in the UK has a demonstrated history of striking down law's that are considered unjust. Which is an advantage of an appointed judicary. They don't have to worry about appeasing the masses or politicians.
Also, these laws are intended for use against - for example- a diagnosed paranoid or schitzophrenic who won't accept treatment. It's a lot more humane than sectioning them.

Too many people have been murdered in the UK by people who where known to be a problem or risk/threat, but the authorities have been unable to act against.

I understand where the civil liberties groups are coming from, and such powers do admit of abuse. But, and it's a major but, you have to balance the rights of an individual against the rights and needs of all the individual's in a society. Which is why you need these powers. But you also need a check on those powers that prevent there misuse.

Re Susan

Looks like ASBOs have been around since Arthurian times.

You're right about over turning one. If it's not funded it's mighty difficult to enforce. If it's a big enough issue they could hold up the entire budget except for some emergency spending (i.e. minimal funding for critical departments).

Do National Security Executive Orders have any Congressional oversight considering these are kept top secret even from the prying eyes of the members of Congress. Could funding for these Executive Orders be provided from Black Project accounts. Apparently on 10th September 2001 the Pentagon couldn't account for $2,400,000,000,000 worth of transactions.

Yes there is oversight by the House and Senate Intelligence Committee to which the President's National Security Advisor and several other high ranking officials in the intelligence world are required to give briefings. The President cannot do anything without the eventual approval and oversight of Congress. For example, even the Presidental War Powers Act only permits the President to wage war for a short period of time before getting to approval of Congress.

The problem for Congress with the "war on terror" is that they gave the President almost blanket approval to fight the terrorists without any specific defined goal of victory which would call an end to his power to wage this war. Because there is not a well defined enemy such as in the case of WWII the President could in theory wage the war on terror indefinitely or until the Congress passed a bill repealing his power and Congress was then able to also override the President's veto of that bill (which is exactly where we seem to be headed this week although the Congress does not have the necessary votes to override the coming veto.)

As to the whole issue of Executive Orders, legally it is extremely questionable as to whether or not they are even constitutional. There is nothing in the Constitution that explicitly gives the President the power to issue executive orders and more importantly there IS a provision in the constitution that expressly reserves the power to make laws to the Congress.

The Supreme Court has the ability to spank either of the two branches. And if Shrub thinks that the current Court will rubber stamp him, he's missed comments made outside of the court by some of the Justices. The problem is is that it has to go through the steps up the ladder, and that takes time.

The "State of Emergency" was not declared for the entire state. It was, in fact declared locally and then reinforced by the Governor in order to allow state assistance to flow more freely into Blacksburg and areas adjacent who were recieving victims of the shooting. A declaration of this nature simply allows localities to by-pass the normal "red tape" in making purchases and requesting aid during a natural disaster or a large on-going emergency event of this nature.

IIRC it is possible to go straight to the Supreme Court. I think it was about some election results.

Unique circumstances. Election issues at the national level go straight to the Supreme Court.

Something like this, where is it is a civil rights issue, would generally have to start in a state court or lower down the ranks in the federal system. And as backed up as that is,it might be years before anything moves. I don't know of anything that would block the Justices from inviting a case out of a lower court, but I can't think of any cases.

I don't either but I agree it would be almost unheard of. If they did go after a case rather than waiting for it to come to them I think it would cause problems with the Court looking more political than judicial.

If you wanted to speed things up add a charge of denying you your right to a speedy trial to the filing.

Been tried. It's hard to show at this point. Most of the federal court system is back logged a couple of years at this point.

Oh, we have our recent anti-terrorist laws. They are pretty bad. Terrorism is such a dreadful thing that the mere suspicion of it seems (to the government) to justify the loss of civil liberties.

ASBOs work at the other end of the scale, in that they address minor annoyances - the kind of "offence" that would just get you a clip around the ear in the good old days. ASBOs attempt to formalise that, with the best of intentions. However, they can turn just about any action into an arrestable offence, which is again worrying from civil liberties point of view.

I don't agree about Guantanamo but I'm not going to debate that here.

Wildman,

Are these the trailer parks like the "Renaisance Village" set up in Baker, LA?

That's the one here that FEMA had guards preventing the local media from going in and interviewing the "residents", basically blocking any information getting to the outside community about who was in there and what was going on in there.

The local news was run off from even interviewing the people from outside the chain link fence.

I'm not a fan of competative(read sensationalistic) media but in a democracy it is necessary.

NO! What I am referring to, according to the photos I've seen from Michigan, look amazingly like the POW camps that we set up for German POW's, the Concentration Camps like we set up for Japanese-American Internees, like the British and German militaries set up as POW camps, in Europe.

Raw wood clapboard construction sitting on top of Dragon's Teeth. FEMA is trying to build one in Adams County, Miss, outside of Natchez, and the locals are fighting it "tooth and nail".

On the web, find "The Natchez PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER." website and look through Feb and Mar 07 news stories.

1 news story I read about the UK earthquake had a statement to the effect: that local "potential troublemakers" had already been rounded up.

Quite frankly, That statement scares the hell out of me!!! I wonder where the "potential troublemakers" have been stashed??

The "Colonial Warriors" want to know.....

Natchez PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER.

It's currently down for unscheduled maintenance.

that's unusual

i just got it up but the search engine refused to produce. I tried "FEMA emergency evacuation center public discussion". Then it stopped working!!!

Very Interesting !!!

If they don't have a sunday edition, I'm going to apply Occam's Razor and guess that the middle of the night on Saturday is a good time to do system maintenance. Check it in 24 hours.

check out these stories:

http://www.alternet.org/rights/33295

http://www.guerillanews.com/headlines/7254/homeland _security_to_build_detention_camps_in_the_united_states

http://www.haliburton.com/default/main/h...nws_012406.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/150306hotel.htm

Hmm, maybe we oughta start a thread then about how to survive once we are rounded up and put in these camps.

I suspect pretty much the same way we survive now on the "outside".

We're restricted legally and socially on what we can have with us now, and we find ways to work with/around that.

The human animal is pretty much the same where ever we go.

The office knuckle-head is going to be the knuckle-head where ever he/she is.

The protector, caregiver and rescuer is going to rise to the occasion regardless of where we are.

The politician and manipulator is going to try to gain control for their own gains no matter where, and like now we can use them for our own purposes (as Qui Gon Jinn said in Star Wars "greed can be a valuable ally).

I think those of ya'll who have military experience would be invaluable in organizing large masses of people to live and function in a group.

I think that it's helpful to remember that there's safety in numbers and using our knowledge to teach as many as we can now will make things easier regardless of what happens and to remember that we are all in this together (whether we like it or not).

We already have a blueprint for social structure (our own democratic tradition).

Maybe including a copy of the Citizens Handbook (contains the Constitution, etc )should be included in our BOBs in addition to first aid reference and whatever book of Scripture/Devotion that brings the individual comfort.

This thought just popped into my head; I find it curious that in all the listings of BOB contents, I've never seen anyone include a Spiritual source.

I'm Pagan so my source of Spiritual connection and comfort is all around me, and I know that folks draw an emense sense of comfort in stressful times from their Bible, Torah, Koran, etc.

Seems like that would rank right up there with shelter, fire, water, and food.

Re wildman800

I could only get the first link to work

http://www.alternet.org/rights/33295

All very worrying. You may be interested in this story about what happened to the foriegn aid sent over for Hurrican Katrina.
Its a sorry tale indeed.


Full story is available here at http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3575

or the latest Foxnews story on the subject is here at

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269128,00.html

The FEMA organisation needs to be radically reformed and requires some demoratic oversight exercised.

try copying the text and paste it on the address line and hit "go".

Tried that - got http error 404 Page not found. Can you get these pages in the US? Damn that project Echelon. Don't what you to get paranoid but .......

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That should get me some attention. Hi to all the folks at the NSA; can I please view wildman800's Links

So, the government watches our Star Wars discussions now, too?

Thanks!!! I once did something similar, and the spooks were in a parked RV, in a park about 300 yards down Hwy A1A, from my house, for about 4 weeks. It took them a week to get there.

We snuck up to the rear of the RV, after dark, and listened. They were monitoring 3 or 4 homes. We could clearly hear the music coming from my house.

We noticed the RV from the beginning because it stayed parked in a restricted park where public access was allowed during daylight hours only. Obviously the Air Police dog/beach patrols weren't bothering them, so something was up. My stereo speakers had been turned toward the RV for 3 weeks by the time we came up behind it and listened in.

I don't want to play that game anymore!!! It caused me a great deal of trouble and had several serious ramifications....

Oops. Good point. For a local paper it's probably a good time for web site maintenance even if they do have a Sunday edition.

Well at least the porn sites are still safe from being snooped on.

Right?

Have you forgotten about the Beatle (?? George Harrison ??) I think it was, who was arrested for visiting a child porn site. His explanation was that he was conducting research into the child porn industry. I guess he was since NO charges were filed or they were dropped after more investigation.

So yes THEY are watching!!!

Actually it was Pete Townsend of The Who.

Just for the record I was referring to the adult stuff only.

Anyone hitting the kiddie stuff can "disappear" into Gitmo as far as I'm concerned.

Just in case anyone is "listening", I want it in the record that I didn't vote for Sanjaya!!!!

Thank you for the clarification,, this senility really s**ks!!!!

I do still remember when I had a fine working brain. Long, long ago; in a galaxy far, far, away....