Al,

We all have those who's judgement and skill we trust from experience.

We all have those of whom we would not turn our backs on.

The what-if's are endless.

The lives of my loved ones are not.

I am not arguing against fire arm ownership.

I have my own and if someone breaks into my house when I'm home, they will be shot and killed, no discussion, period.

I'm arguing against the blanket, anger and fear driven argument that large numbers of people walking around armed is going to make us and our loved ones safe.

If the goof down the street is ccw licensed he has demonstrated safety and at least basic gun handling skills on the range. The Tennessee requirement is safe handling and hits within the target at ranges beyond what would be normal distance. (IIRC the ranges are 9' 21' & 45') They also go into depth about the legal responsibilities of carrying and what constitutes self defense.

Edit:
Legal age is 21 and the initial permit isn't cheap. The required class and permit fee ends up being about $150-200+ depending on what caliber gun is used to qualify.

Samhain:

I understand your fear of unworthy people having weapons (guns) I don't know you, but I know I am not qualified to say who should have or not have a weapon. My feelings are if they are law abiding citizens and have no record. They schould have the right to carry.

This is an unfortunate product of a coddling culture. There is no reason why college students, or for that matter high school students, shouldn't be treated as adults. People have created this idea that people under twenty-five or thirty or forty aren't trust worthy and then made it true by not trusting them. You can't drink until you're 21, can't rent a car until you're 25. Students on college campuses are forbidden from possessing or carrying anything that can be considered a weapon. The dormitories here even put nerf guns on the list of banned weapons that should be stored in the police station. Colleges are not here to train people to have self-control, thats what parents are for. Colleges are institutes of higher, more specific learning. Yes, you also learn what it is to live on your own outside your parents influence (generally), but I am not spending ten thousand dollars a semester for my RA to teach me to do my own laundry. I'm paying ten thousand dollars a semester to learn about geology, so I can get a job which will pay me more then minimum wage because I've spent the time learning skills that not everyone possesses.

Try treating people as adults and you will find they act as adults. A person is considered to be an adult in the United States at 18 but is not granted all of the rights and privileges of being an adult until many years later. But we do expect them to pay taxes and sign up for selective services. We even allow them to join the military at 17 so they can be given an M-16 or an M9 and sent over to kill our countries enemies in a foreign land, but they can't own a handgun or drink until they are 21.

While I don't suggest that everyone should be armed. I think its appropriate for suitably trustworthy (as determined by a background check) and suitably trained people be allowed to conceal carry their weapons. A well trained and armed citizen could very well have made a decisive difference in this and similar situations.

Samhain:

I understand your fear of unworthy people having weapons (guns) I don't know you, but I know I am not qualified to say who should have or not have a weapon. My feelings are if they are law abiding citizens and have no record. They schould have the right to carry.

Samhain
For what it's worth, I tend to agree with most of what you're saying. Most college age kids ARE "not quite there." After all, many of the 18-22 crowd have come straight from high school into college. They're book smart, but not necessarily street smart. Too little "real world" experience, given that the majority of them have been or still are living under parental oversight (I'm as guilty as them).

That being said, those that are a bit older, or have worked before going to college, usually are a bit more seasoned. As people rightfully point out, most of our soldiers are in that same age bracket. But the difference is, they have training, and are working, and are seeing overseas tours. I'm sure most vets on here would agree that it matures a person rather quickly.

To those that say more armed citizens are a deterrent, I beg to differ (though admittedly, this can be argued many ways). In most countries of the world, firarms are easy to get. Yet, there is still violence. It seems that between Africa and South America, there are always a few coups or 'ethnic cleansing' attempts in the making. Perhaps the argument shouldn't be against armed citizenry, so much as avoiding the mob mentality of armed persons? 1000 individuals with guns are armed citizens, 1000 buddies are a militia (insert your own "unit" here).

If anyone has ever read "Starship Troopers" (no, the movie is way different), there was an idea that citizenship had to be earned. Only after being a citizen was one allowed voting priveleges. It's an interesting concept: after voluntarily service for 'the greater good,' one is more likely to keep their fellow countrymen in mind, and act accordingly. One solution might be for only certain folks to be allowed weapons (former/current police, former/current military, perhaps needing a standardized training course for ownership, etc). Of course... this would be a HUGE political and emotional nightmare!

Anyway, just some random thoughts while I procrastinate.

Too true. There's also probably two or three what they call non-traditional students there. I'm working on my second engineering degree and know at least four in one class including myself. The other three are all ex military.

Becuase the average human is inherently cowardly, and has never seriously contemplated thier own demise, any more than most livestock has. Something scares them, and they freeze, on the theory that if they don't move they won't be seen. Then greed kicks in, they pray that will be saved, the beg, they cry, they try to run away. They'll even release wastes, hoping to disgust the predator.

They are also inherently greedy and ungrateful, due to their upbringing, social dynamic, and age. To them, to be injured period is an alien concept. To injured by another, shockingly so. And being injured or killed to protect someone whom you don't have a biologically-programmed instinct to protect just doesn't even enter into most of their minds. Ever.

What happened on Flight 93 is that they had time for thier thinking brains to kick in.

What does the skin color of the guy looking in the window have to do with anything??

I will agree, reluctantly, with samhain for one simple reason- most kids in a class room are under 22. Most of them have never had to do very much for themselves. As I said elsewhere, I wouldn't have trusted most of them with a baseball bat. I'm only 30, turn the clock back a year and I was in a tech school- when I was surrounded by the 20 year olds, I was the stranger in a strange land. They are kids, regardless of a legal status tied to a biological benchmark. They act in a manner I would have been embarrassed to act in when I was 14. I've watched them cry hysterically becuase they got a "B" on a paper; this was a member of the National Gaurd, by the way. It shocked, it didn't awe.

Now, there were some who didn't have thier lives pasturized, homoginized and sanitized for their protection. These are the guys (and gals) who didn't spend their childhoods drooling in front of the television, got cut, got scraped, broke bones by falling out of trees, all the stuff that parents generally don't let their kids do today. They are the kind of people who fit in here, like JIM or AROTC, and my brother, and the guys I'm trying to drag here. But they are those outsiders looking in, shaking their heads. The guys everyone else thinks is weird.

I will disagree with trusting my safety to a police officer. I went to a college that had 1 security guy on on each shift, and he was allowed by a step up the chain of command that was off the campus to carry neither pepper spray nor a baton. Most days, we had the head of security around unless he was in a meeting, or in court (he was also the county sheriff), but that was it. It takes 15 minutes to get an ambulance there most of the time, and 10 to get state troopers. At least the volunteer fire department is on the otherside of the soccer field. And I grew up in a place where the times we could have really used a cop, it was over 20 minutes get one there. In 20 minutes, I can beat someone to death with a soaked bath towel.

Someone with a firearm wouldn't have prevented all the deaths. Just a lot of them. If we are ever in the same place, samhain, you don't have to trust me. You've got my protection anyway, even if I am unarmed. I won't expect gratitude either, it is an emotion beyond the capacity of most humans. I would just ask people not to puke on me.