Glockaroo,

Why the personal attack did I somehow offend you?

This is an argument like any other it has two sides. I have repeatedly tried to civily respond to your's and others somewhat personal attacks with reason. I have tried to argue my point and even was willing to admit that I had come off as arrogant and had allowed the discussion to get heated.

Now you are implying things, making generalizations and putting words in my mouth. I think you need to throttle back a bit.

It is not hypocarcy to expect average climbers to be responsible for their actions on moderate climbs but make concessions for people pushing the envelope of climbing. It is not because they are celebrities but because there is a higher danger and consequense to failure on the climbs they undertake. That does not excuse them from being self reliant it just explains why thay may need a rescue; same with solo ocean sailors and such.

When Lynn Hill fell SHE was her worst critic she was embarrased and said so. Taking a sleeping bag (synthetic) up El Cap makes sense and is considered essential gear, taking one up Royal Arches does not. The rescues you mentioned were mostly in times when the weather is impossible to completely predict so in their case it may have been more bad luck than irresponsibilty. I don't know the details of these rescues so without research so it is hard to comment. But that does not excuse them; sometime even elite climbers get rescued from their errors I would have to ask them but I bet some of them were ashamed of what happened.

Lastly what someone posts on an internet forum is not a complete snapshot of who they are so don't paint a picture of someone you don't know. You don't know anything about me other than what I post here.

Obviously I have stuck a nerve. This discussion has now turned into me defending myself from being called things like "snide" and arrogant and have had words put in my mouth.

I am a self reliant rock climber and proud of it. If my attitude of self reliance is too much for you too freakin bad dude!
I have assisited many people both on and off the rock and have no problem with who I am and what I think about this subject. Please don't try to imply that I am not understanding or compassionate to others in need. That is very insulting and you are very wrong anyway.

I would still be ashamed if I screwed up so bad as to need a rescue under the same circumstances that Vic did. I could accept the fact that I needed help but I would still be disappointed in myself.

I think it is time I bow out of the fray before I lose my temper and post a response to you that may get me tossed off ETS.
So as far as this thread goes I will no longer respond to your comments; it is a waste of time.