billym, I really don't like your condescending attitude. I understand and share your ethic of self rescue, but if your life, and more importantly the life of a loved one is in real daner, it is foolish and irresponsible not to consider asking for help. We weren't there so we can't know exactly what it was like, but it sounds like his son was suffering from hypothermia, and with the change in weather, he very well could have died without assistance.

Sure this guy made some mistakes, but he also did some things right. He had the sense not to attempt a climb in adverse conditions, eventually decided to shelter for the night, and he brought at least some survival gear(mylar blanket, garbage bags, ponchos, heat packs, headlamp and flashlight-thats more than many people bring). He was also able to let go of his ego and call for help when he thought it was necessary, and that may have saved the life of his son.

Your arrogant attitude may be acceptable in some climbing circles, but I don't think it's appropriate on this forum. True, sometimes criticism here is brutally honest, as it should be, but its also constructive.
I really hope your 'involvement in many rescues' was just bragging and exageration, and that you are not an official SAR member. If I needed rescue and knew that you would be the one coming for me, I'd probably avoid calling for help even if I needed it.

I am sorry that you feel that way.
I guess the way I was taught to climb was in a very traditional way
and that included an ethic of responsibilty to oneself and others. This includes one's climbing partner, other climbers and even the SAR folks who may one day need to rescue you. That said I was taught to do everything to avoid getting into bad situations by proper training and planning. The ultimate failure of this ethic is to get so deeply in trouble that someone else needs to come save you. It is not like I wouldn't call an ambulance if someone was having a heart attack. It means that when I choose to go climbing or do any other outdoor activity I am not expecting to get bailed out and I am planning on doing everything to not get into trouble.
Too many folks feel they can "dial 911" and have someone come get them. This was certainly the case with Vic and his son.
Rememer the guy who was saved by using a PLB recently in Texas? I think he was in Big Bend; everyone praised him for having the foresight to bring a PLB. I held my toungue then; I thought he was a fool for climbing into a situation where he got stuck. Never climb what you can't downclimb or at least rappel; he had no rope. Lucky the PLB made up for his mistake.

So if I got too high on my horse I sincerely apologize. That is not what I want my contributions here at ETS to be.
I was just trying to convey the notion that if you contibute to your demise and cannot get yourself out you have failed to be responsible for yourself. That would embarrass me.

Vic did exactly that. He failed to climb Royal Arches in a manner that allowed him and his son a successful finish. He got caught out and still made matters worse.

Again I wan't to say sorry for coming off as condescending that was not my objective.

As for SAR work; I used to volunteer with the San Mateo County Sherriff's office. They have a mountain rescue unit for local steep terrain and mutual aid call outs. I worked numerous searches on Mt Shasta for lost climbers.
I don't volunteer any more because you have to be able to drop what you are doing and miss work. I don't have that luxury.

Is that what you said to Middendorf when he and his Valley friends got plucked from Half Dome? Should they have refused the helicopter rescue and allowed themselves to die on the wall in the spirit of personal responsibility?

Did you express similar disdain to Russ Walling's face when he and Erikson got plucked from Native Son due to poor decisions regarding basic storm gear?

Should Takeda and Perrin have refused escape on Epperson's rope when they got thrashed on Sunkist?

All were Valley hardmen (most with extensive YOSAR time) and they all would have died (their words, not mine) without outside rescue.

You elitists are tough guys until it's your life on the line.

Billy

Thanks for the clarification.

Actually, I agree with you that people who call in SAR because they couldn't be bothered to prepare properly are a menace to themselves and others. I'm just not convinced that Vic fell into this category. Yes, he made mistakes; but calling for SAR when his son began suffering from hypothermia wasn't one of them.

On the other hand, people who refuse to call in SAR because of an overly macho atttitude may be just as bad. I remember a case some years ago when a group of adventurers were trying to reach the North Pole unassisted (i.e. no resupply from aircraft). One of the group fell ill and was forced to turn back; in an attempt to maintain the "integrity" of the adventure, he refused to call for an airlift evacuation and struck out on his own to return to base. When it became apparent he was overdue, Canadian SAR had to go out and find him; it cost us Canadian taxpayers over $500,000 (about $400K US) to satisfy his personal code of honour. ;-) The kicker is, he wasn't even a Canadian taxpayer :-(

Laurence Gonzales, in his excellent book "Deep Survival", tells the story of a US Army Ranger who died on a civilian whitewater rafting expedition, after he fell in the water and just laughed at the civilian guide who tried to rescue him. Gonzales makes a convincing case that it was his Ranger survival training that killed him; because Rangers are so deeply indoctrinated with the notion that having to be rescued is the worst form of failure, he could not bring himself to accept assistance when it was offered. (He also probably didn't realize the danger he was in until it was too late.) Minutes later he was swept round a bend in the river, pinned under a rock, and drowned.

Again, I agree with you that if you're going to indulge in adventures - whether it be climbing a mountain, trekking to the North Pole, or flying an airplane - you should take responsibility for your own actions. Where we apparently differ is that I think that includes admitting when you've screwed up and being prepared to say "Uh, guys, I need some help here."

I agree totally. I never implied that calling for help was totally out of the question and I think there is a difference between a guy fumbling up and down Royal Arches and the "Valley Hardmen" mentioned in a previous post. The "hardmen" Glockaroo mentions are not weekend warriors and are in the business of pushing the limits of alpinism. Almost every climber and route mentioned are at the top of the difficulty scale not to mention grave V-VI big wall climbs. Comparing that to a novice being unpreparred on Royal Arches is like comparing a crash in NASCAR and an average driver in a car accident. They are not completely the same thing.

The point that I guess I made poorly is that if you are going to do things like rock climbing you should consider yourself on your own. Rescues are a luxury that have begun to be taken for granted. I was trying to convey a feeling that people like Vic need to take more responsiblity for themselves when undertaking risky endeavors.

Being that I am not an elite climber that is pushing the envelope of the sport I expect myself to stay out of harms way by planning and acting responsibly. If I totally failed at that or had a terrible turn of luck and someone was in danger I would call or go for help. I never said it was out of the question.
I am not too stupid to admit defeat but I still think Vic cashed it in real easily because he had the luxury of rescue.

I think I have both made my arguement and apologized for coming off as arrogant. If that doesn't satisfy everyone so be it.
Somehow we have gone from an inexperienced climber blowing a grade III climb to comparing it to rescues from grade V-VII climbs and North Pole expeditions.

And that is the crux of the biscuit, so to speak. People like Billy are willing to give the celebrities a pass because they are "cutting edge" and "pushing the limits". If Billy was truly interested in personal responsibility, not sucking up to the big dogs, then he would condemn the experts MORE than the dabblers.

Billy: who should know better about dealing with Valley weather: the old codger on the Arches or Erik Erikson? Oh, but it's OK for Erikson to take a down sleeping bag up on El Cap because his route is rated A5, not 5.7.

When Lynn Hill forgot to buckle her harness and took a terrible groundfall, nobody in the "elite" community criticized her. It was all "oh poor Lynn; best wishes sweetie". Would BillyM give the same kidglove treatment to a weekend warrior who made the same mistake? Or would the weekender be subject to Billy's snide criticism about how the weekender should stay on the couch or in the rock gym?

Why can't you see the hypocrisy you embrace, Billy?

Glockaroo,

Why the personal attack did I somehow offend you?

This is an argument like any other it has two sides. I have repeatedly tried to civily respond to your's and others somewhat personal attacks with reason. I have tried to argue my point and even was willing to admit that I had come off as arrogant and had allowed the discussion to get heated.

Now you are implying things, making generalizations and putting words in my mouth. I think you need to throttle back a bit.

It is not hypocarcy to expect average climbers to be responsible for their actions on moderate climbs but make concessions for people pushing the envelope of climbing. It is not because they are celebrities but because there is a higher danger and consequense to failure on the climbs they undertake. That does not excuse them from being self reliant it just explains why thay may need a rescue; same with solo ocean sailors and such.

When Lynn Hill fell SHE was her worst critic she was embarrased and said so. Taking a sleeping bag (synthetic) up El Cap makes sense and is considered essential gear, taking one up Royal Arches does not. The rescues you mentioned were mostly in times when the weather is impossible to completely predict so in their case it may have been more bad luck than irresponsibilty. I don't know the details of these rescues so without research so it is hard to comment. But that does not excuse them; sometime even elite climbers get rescued from their errors I would have to ask them but I bet some of them were ashamed of what happened.

Lastly what someone posts on an internet forum is not a complete snapshot of who they are so don't paint a picture of someone you don't know. You don't know anything about me other than what I post here.

Obviously I have stuck a nerve. This discussion has now turned into me defending myself from being called things like "snide" and arrogant and have had words put in my mouth.

I am a self reliant rock climber and proud of it. If my attitude of self reliance is too much for you too freakin bad dude!
I have assisited many people both on and off the rock and have no problem with who I am and what I think about this subject. Please don't try to imply that I am not understanding or compassionate to others in need. That is very insulting and you are very wrong anyway.

I would still be ashamed if I screwed up so bad as to need a rescue under the same circumstances that Vic did. I could accept the fact that I needed help but I would still be disappointed in myself.

I think it is time I bow out of the fray before I lose my temper and post a response to you that may get me tossed off ETS.
So as far as this thread goes I will no longer respond to your comments; it is a waste of time.

"Hardmen" pushing the envelope get in embarassing situations all the time, too. Just check out this story:

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0512/features/tomaz_humar.html

Getting back to the original topic/situation...

When people do things like Vic did, my first question is, 'What was the hurry?' Except for ego, was there some reason that I missed that they had to finish on that same day? Did one of them have an appointment the next day to donate a kidney or something? As far as I understood, it wasn't a rescue situation until he forced it to be one.

Aren't reasonable judgment calls one of the main weapons for survival situations? How many times have you read about people who refused to re-evaluate existing conditions and change their plans, no matter what? ONWARD, no matter if the weather goes bad. ONWARD, even if hypothermia is setting in. ONWARD, even if it's getting dark and you've lost the trail. ONWARD TO THE DEATH!

All this just seems kind of stupid to me.

Try it this way: Okay, son, it looks like we're not going to make it down tonight. The sun is setting, the weather is going bad. No big deal, we've got some survival gear with us. That looks like a good place to settle in over there. It's out of the wind and there's some overhead shelter if it starts to rain. Let's see what we can scrounge for firewood. Hey, did I ever tell you story about...

Oh, Aardvark:

"The fact that he last climbed in Yosemite three decades ago doesn't mean he hasn't climbed in three decades"
If he had been climbing recently, why would this be the first time he took his son?

"..what's your evidence that this guy wasn't up to the climb?"
Putting his son into a rescue situation, maybe?

"He sounds to me like an experienced climber with 30 years experience, not some yahoo trying to relive his glory days."
Actually, he didn't say he was experienced. He just said he had done that climb 30 yrs ago. He lives less than 150 mi from Half Dome. He's never taken his son, and he didn't know his limitations. Yeah, experienced.

"Granted, he made some mistakes."
Yes, I counted at least six or eight, and some of them could have been life-altering (or ending). Maybe you would want to send your kid with him next time?

"He also had the courage to post publicly about those mistakes, and he had no problem admitting to them."
Since he was able to fall back on having someone else rescue them, he didn't have to post "I killed my son with my bad judgment", did he? It's just as easy to admit doing stupid things on the web as it is to insult people on the web, as it's so anonymous.

You criticized BillyM because he disapproved of the guy putting the two of them into a position where they HAD to be rescued. It might be a good idea to remember that there is an unending supply of idiots, and places like Yosemite are Mecca. And if Keith Lober had words with him, well... maybe he was displeased with his antics, too. Think?

Sue