I would stick with ASP. They were one of the first. The materials are high quality and its usually what you will see LEOs carrying. ASP had a civilian training program years ago, I would definitely check into that. Stay away from the cheap Chinese junk. This is definitely one piece of equipment you do not want to fail.

Craig.

Monadnock advantages over the ASP. They also are metal, they can be collasped by pushing a button and not having to hit it on a hard surface like the ASP. Also the polymer tip wont cut those you strike lik ethe damaged tip of the ASP. All tips on ASP's are damaged due to the fact they have to be hit on a hard surface to close.

My only question is what and or who are you going to use one on?

The police use them on unarmed but aggressive and combative persons. The bad thing about a baton is that they are light and you have to have some decent training to make them effective. The general targets are the hands/ forearms / elbows / legs / knees / shins ect...

Hit someone in the head or neck with one and you might as well shoot them as those targets may be considered using lethal force.

If someone deployed a baton against me I would shoot them.

Something to think about.

When facing someone with a knife, the issue has already escalated to a deadly force situation and I'm going to take whatever target is presented.

Truthfully I have an ASP but almost never carry it. Choices are usually whether to employ OC or a pistol.

Properly used, a baton is a less than lethal force option. If you are worried about it being light, you aren't using properly- an escrima stick is only a few ounces, and in the hands of someone who been given a few hours of instruction and then practices for a while, it starts at "ouch" and moves very quickly up to broken ribs. It isn't a club or mace, it doesn't rely brute force, but selectively applied and controlled force.

And unless they have a gun or knife, it's really hard to justify shooting to a civil jury. And in a lot of places, it's easier to carry a baton than a pistol.

The tip on my Asp is still in as good a shape as when I got it 6 years ago. I close it against a wood floor.

Too get back to my original post.

I don't know of anybody who can claim any proficiency with a baton with a couple of days training. Yes, any fool can pick up a baton and use it as a cudgel, but that is not what I would call proficiency.

If you want to learn any martial art or weapons system, seek out an experience instructor, check their credentials, and practise.
It takes weeks of intensive practise to develop the skills and muscle memory to become proficient with any type of weapon.

A baton in the hands of any experienced practitioner can be used for everything from disarms, throws, from purely defensive blocks to fatal strikes.

When I studied Kali and escrima, we would spar and train initially with rattan sticks. We then progressed to one man drills and forms with steel pipe to build up the forearms and wrists. Watching an experienced kali, escrima or arnis practitioner spar is a thing of beauty.

I would also strongly advise against carrying a baton for defensive purposes until you reach a level where you know what you are doing. In my experience, flashing a weapon can often escalate a situation, even when that is not your intent. And if you flash a weapon, you damn well better know how to use it.

M

Winners drip, losers gush. - Fred Degerberg
If it has an edge, go for the meat. If it doesn't, go for the bone.

Well put. When I was trained in the PR-24, it was by a Monodoc instructor, who worked us, and beat the snot out of us, for two long eight hour days. And that was just the bare minumum before I could carry it on duty. We had a hanging dummy (we put Sgts chevrons on it) that I worked on, on my own time, for at least an hour a day for months before I really felt that I was pretty proficient with it. Plus practicing the take downs and come alongs on another officer. After that I whacked that dummy a little bit before every shift, and really worked on it once a week or so. For about twenty years.

And you are right on about flashing a weapon, any weapon. I have carried a firearm off duty, and now retired, since 1971. Luckily I never had to draw it, because I had made up my mind that it would not come out unless I fired it. No waving it around, no "stop police" stuff, it would be drawn and fired only if the badguy had already reached the point where lethal force was justified, ie to save a life. Please remember that we are talking off duty here. On duty I made a jillion felony arrests where I drew and aimed my weapon at a suspect, but I never had any intention of making an off duty arrest. Doing that is almost guaranteed to bite you in the butt eventually.

If you "flash" a weapon, no matter what it might be, and are not justified both legally and morally to use it, AND ready and willing to use it, you stand a really good chance of having the bad guy take it away from you, and then you are in deep doodoo...

I have to disagree with some of the opinions posted here. While there is something to the fancier stuff with a baton, at the core it is just a stick once it is deployed.

There is great value in a stick, and it doesn't require a lot of training or practice to use. It gives you reach, and a hard striking surface.

I won't dispute that training is good, but a baton is still useful even in relatively untrained hands. Humans have been using sticks since the opposable thumb came about.

I have trained with some very good instructors, in both cane and stick. The most useful for the street can be learned in about 2 hours. These are the items a civilian is most likely to be able to use. Block. Strike. This is instinctive. If you have any training, including some basic hand to hand, you understand your targets. Strike the knee. Strike the elbow. Strike the hand holding the knife. For that matter, if he has a knife, or a gun (both constituting lethal force and therefore justifying a lethal response) hit him in the head or neck.

All the rest is fancy stuff, but you don't really need it to defend yourself, and I think it is a mistake to discount the baton just because you haven't trained in it.

Instinctive?? Like the hay maker punch that every dumb-arsed bar brawler thinks is going to lay out his opponent?

We were discussing proficiency. If you honestly feel that you can develop muscle memory and technique within two hours, I bow down to your mastery, Sifu.

Where's your free hand? Open stance, closed stance? How do you strike at the off knee on an advancing foe? Or are you striking at his leading leg? Strike the knife hand? Do you think your opponents going to extend his lead that much if you have a stick or baton in your hand?

I'm also assuming that your opponent is the aggressor, which assumes he/she is no stranger to sudden violence. You seem to have automatically assumed superior training or technique over your adversary. I've got almost 25 years of training under my belt, and I would never be that arrogant. I've had my arse kicked by the best!!!

Years ago, while studying under Fred Degerberg, I attended a demonstration done by Prof. Remy Presas. Every time someone thought they had an opening, they were trapped. It wasn't until afterwards that we realized every opening we saw was a trap.

I agree that any improvised weapon would be better than empty hand when the women and children go to bed, but nothing else you posted makes any sense to me.

You feed me someone with two hours of training, and even now, middle-aged, overweight and out-of-training, I'll eat their lunch.

M