I got my dad's old penknife when he got a new one. I was about seven. I knicked myself a few times. And if I had gashed myself pretty good, so what? That's what Bactine and Bandaids were for.

I agree that the chance of a lighter exploding is fairly astronomical. I see the little toads smoking all the time --- which are the most dangerous, the cigarettes or the lighters?

I think some people really need to get a grip. If a kid hits their finger with a hammer, they'll probably be more careful next time. The answer is NOT to eliminate hammers.

You give the kid equipment while you're home, and you teach him how to use it, how not to use it, and make sure he knows all the safety issues. And not just once, either. Education is a lifelong project. The number of parents who will let their 10-year-old rip over a hilly field in a 4-wheeler at top speed, but not teach them how to use a knife make me grind my teeth in frustration.

Obviously one thing the Scouts don't teach is what to do if they do get lost. Maybe a lot of parents put their kids in the Scouts so they'll disappear and never be found? It seems to work in some cases, esp in UT. Some of them have been missing for years.

The bottom line is that you can give a kid all the gear in the world, tell him "NO" and "Don't" only a million times or so, and he's still going to act like a twit when lost in the wilderness. Why not teach him at home how to make a fire, how to use a lighter, how to use a knife, how to collect water, how to protect himself from the elements?

The gear in his pockets isn't going to be worth much if he doesn't have some gear in his head.

Cynical Sue

Ken,

How would the scouts carry the trash bags?

Thanks!

Craig_PHX
Troop 824
Webmaster
http://www.bsatroop824.org/

in the 1950's we called them "lost kits"..matches,whistle.
small candle..foil.. so on.. putting the kit together and talking
about what to do to be found again was probably more important
than the kit itself which was more of a "group working together"activity..i recall the "don't call wolf" speech from
the scoutmaster..scouts who hid out for the "fun" of causing
a panicky search for them would be sent home from camp.

YOu fold them. A 33 gallon contractor's bag folds up to about the size of a skinny sandwich. Then put it in a 1qt freezer bag so the big bag doesn't get snagged up, sit on it (redneck vacume sealer) and close it up.

I have only "blown up" one lighter (Bic) in my life. Takes a Bic, flat surface, awl, and lots of alcohol. Short story is that if you puncture one it will fracture and parts fly away. This was about 20 years ago and the plastic formula may have changed by now.

Bill

By a long shot... If that kid had had a whistle, I think he would have been found a LOT sooner... He said that he heard the searchers but they did not hear his shouting...

The BIGEST problem with the metal whistles are that, in the winter, they can freeze to your lips!

There are some pea whistles that are just about as loud as I have ever heard... The Windstorm for example...

The problem is:
1. That the pea can be swallowed and choke someone(Not likely in my opinion, at least with a GOOD whistle).
2. That it stops the whistle from working when it is wet.(But that does not seem to be a problem with the Windstorm)
3. That, if wet, it can freeze inside the whistle.(I have no idea if that would effect the ability of the Windstorm to produce a whistle, but it would change the sound to a normal Storm whistle sound at the least)

There is a lot of debate on how well the sounds of different whistles carry, and of how well they can be NOTICED(which are totally different things...
Some people believe that the sound of a whistle with a pea is more UNNATURAL and so will be noticed more easily than that of a pea-less whistle, even though the pea-less whistle is actually louder...

To some of us with lousy hearing, some of the fancy pea-less whistles are too high a freq to be heard. But then I am too old and worn out to be doing much SAR stuff anyway...

OK, I agree with most of that list, but #13: "Explain why it usually is not wise to eat edible wild plants or wildlife in a wilderness survival situation."
?????
I guess it depends on what they are calling a survival situation, but anywhere that is COLD is going to require you to eat, if you are in it for more than a day...

I had some issues with #8: "Show that you can find and improvise a natural shelter minimizing the damage to the environment." until I read #9: "Spend a night in your shelter."
I do not think that "minimizing the damage to the environment" is of ANY concern in a real survival situation... But because they are actually having to DO it, it may be OK, because the task will actually be harder than normal...
You SHOULD tell them that if their life is in danger, to forget about minimizing the damage to the environment, and make the best shelter they can in the QUICKEST time they can!

The rest of the list is very good, and I would bet that a lot of people that get out of survival classes cannot do some of them... Like #6: "Show that you can start fires using three methods other than matches.", or #11: "Show three ways to treat water found in the outdoors to prepare it for drinking."
It is the SHOW combined with the THREE in those that is rather 'hardcore'...

I kept trying to figure out what the alcohol was for...
Then I suddenly realized that it was for the courage/stupidity...

Obviously one thing the Scouts don't teach is what to do if they do get lost.

While I do acknowledge that a couple times a year you hear about a situation where a Scout is lost, what we don't tend to hear is that hundreds of thousands of them hike and camp every year without any problems. In the current edition of the handbook, which is almost 500 pages, you'll find on page 38 the start of a discussion on safe hiking and what to do if you're lost, including STOP, signalling, shelter, etc. It's one of the first requirements for the first rank you can achieve, Tenderfoot, so I think the BSA does consider it a priority. It's also revisited in several other places, and incorporated into training for several merit badges.

I think this has been a great topic, and we've picked up a lot of great info from it. I'm just a volunteer, but, I know that our training as Scoutmasters emphasizes that a HUGE responsibility as leaders is to make this a safe environment to be in. You would be amazed at how much training the BSA provides now for leaders. In our Council, they have chosen to make all of the training free for adults, to encourage even more of them to attend beyond those of us required to be there. They require varying levels of training to recharter your troop each year, depending on your role in the troop. I think many of us work hard at it, but, like anything, there are going to be varying degrees of quality in an organization built on the goodwill of thousands of volunteers.

I do believe your point that education is a lifelong project is worth repeating. You're so right that the equipment alone is not enough. Knowledge, and a cool head to employ the knowledge when needed is so vital to the development of these boys.

It's always tough when you see a news story about a Scout lost. Unfortunately, there will always be some situations where a boy gets into a bind. There are plenty of things built into the system to make that a remote possibility, but, it will happen. You hear the "Scout lost" story more, I think, because there are just so many more of them out there trying to enjoy the outdoors. Scouting also tends to place some personal responsibility on boys, something our society tends to avoid everywhere else. Our job is to let them make some mistakes, without having it become a disaster.

There are a lot of things in life that bring risks with them when you participate. The Coast Guard probably could point out that there are more boaters lost at sea each year than people who don't have a boat. There are just a lot more opportunities to get lost at sea if you're spending time there. Many boaters take Coast Guard Aux. and/or Power Squadron courses. When they do get training, they don't tend to be in the news as often as those who don't, but, once in a while, stuff happens. We just have to try to be ready as best we can when it does. Ok, I know, this probably belongs in Campfire...be gentle