In North Carolina, this time. http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/18/boy.scout/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

They were able to follow him for a ways, and don't suspect foul play. No, of course he didn't have his backpack with him.

Let's see how this one plays out. Was he taught to STOP and wait to be found? Does he have anything with him to help deal with the temps in the 20s? Has he been taught anything about survival? Has he been taught by his parents to be afraid of everyone, and to hide from rescuers? Is he mentally handicapped in some way?

We shall see.

Sue

Did you read the description? "wearing blue jeans..."

Apparently he forgot the rule of two. Hopefully he will be found alive and well...

I am worried that he stayed behind with one adult when the others were hiking- and then left after they returned. This seems odd and indicates that there might be other factors involved in his disappearence. Something is not right.

When my son was in Scouts I had a funny feeling about the Scoutmaster, so I went on all of their campouts (I also had the only P/U, and carried all of their gear. If I couldn't go they didn't go). Years later it was learned that he was a convicted child molester from Texas. I know that the majority of the Scoutmasters are good guys, but the occasional bad apple can slip through...

Still no updates on this? One can only hope that he is found alive. My prayers go out to him.

He's still missing, three days. They've expanded the search, using dogs, searchers on foot and a helicopter. And they've issued an Amber Alert, 'just in case'.

But temps have warmed up, only 40s at night, up from the 20s.

Maybe tomorrow...

Sue

NBC: Missing Boy Scout found alive after disappearing in N. Carolina woods.

You trusted your instincts & they were right. Funny how we can't always put our finger on it, but our gut is right a lot of times.

The article on CNN said he was found only 1 1/2 miles away. That's about a 7 square mile search area - I'm surprised it took 3 days to find him - he must have been moving the whole time. Will be interesting to hear the follow-up details.

They have found him tired, dehydrated, BUT alive

This is such great news. I hope the positive outcome doesn't make it be forgotten too soon. It will be interesting to hear how the details shake out on this one.

I know that we will make this a "teachable moment" at our Scout meeting tonight. Fortunately, this turned out ok, but, there were a couple things that we work really hard to avoid in Scouting, and they happened here. Things like always having a buddy when you leave a site. Letting a leader know when you leave a site. 2 deep adult leadership at all times. (That didn't seem to be a factor, in that the boy didn't dissappear until all 3 adults were back in camp anyway, but, it's actually a formal BSA policy to never have one boy and one adult alone, unless the adult is their parent.)

I hope we uncover more about what actually happened here, I think there are some things to learn and share from this.

IMO, The #1 thing that went right in this situation was that boy was dressed for the environment. A fleece jacket inside a heavy winter coat. If you removed either one of those then this probably would have ended differently.

This is a live demostration of why the SHELTER is at the top of the list when it comes to the rule of 3's.

"I wonder if his parents will re-evaluate his Ritalin usage?"

Maybe. Maybe not.

Parents will refuse Ritalin or reduce the dosage all based on the uproar the Scientologists made in their war on mental health, not on any research they've done themselves.

If the kid couldn't see the blackboard or computer monitor, they wouldn't hesitate to get him glasses would they? But I suppose that giving him the proper dose of something that would help him focus long enough to cross a street without being hit by a car, or to assist in his own rescue is too much to expect.

(Mods: I still think we need a Smiley Face with a good sneer.)

Sue

Like someone else said, probably not. Lots of kids/parents use it for school only. Though to take him off for the few days he's out of school while hiking is DUMB (I wonder how long it takes to get back to therapeutic level of ritalin?).

If I recall, some of the side effects aren't that welcome, so over summer the kids just stop taking it. Remember, most kids with ADHD are fidgety and interrupt others, in addition to having trouble with school. So, taking the drug during school helps the whole class, not just that person.

Most kids with what is called ADHD are perfectly normal kids, who are suffering from sugar shock from the crap they drink, from toxic reactions to the coloring and additives in the "food" they eat.

Passive bovine children are certainly easier to manage. But fidgeting and interruption is NORMAL BEHAVIOR FOR CHILDREN. It's not a "disease"at all - we're treating childhood and all it means as a pathology.

This article in the New York Times has this snippet:

"Peg L. Smith, the chief executive officer of the American Camp Association, a trade group with 2,600 member camps and three million campers, says about a quarter of the children at its camps are medicated for attention deficit disorder, psychiatric problems or mood disorders."

25% percent of the population of children can't be so mentally ill (and ADHD is a mental illness) that they need drugs. It's like saying that 25% of the population has cancer or AIDS. A population with 25% of the members suffering a pathology can't survive, no matter what the pathology.

Children are not convenient.
Children are not alway easy to deal with.
Children are not machines to be turned on and off when it suits parents and teachers.
Children are smarter than you think and less rational than you can imagine.

Children are small people with limited experience. As a result, they don't know how to act like adults, and they should net be expected to do so.

You've hit a raw, raw nerve with me here, because I've seen what Ritalin and the other drugs do to exuberant, brilliant, but excitable children.
"The Onion" a satirical weekly paper, had a brilliant "news" article about Ritalin a few years ago:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/32261

"WORCESTER, MA—Area 7-year-old Douglas Castellano's unbridled energy and creativity are no longer a problem thanks to Ritalin, doctors for the child announced Monday. "After years of failed attempts to stop Douglas' uncontrollable bouts of self-expression, we have finally found success with Ritalin," Dr. Irwin Schraeger said. "For the first time in his life, Douglas can actually sit down and not think about lots of things at once." Castellano's parents reported that the cured child no longer tries to draw on everything in sight, calming down enough to show an interest in television."

OK, I'm stepping off this thread because I'll go totally ballistic if I see another post extolling the virtues of easy-to-manage drugged children.

Bravo, Martin, Bravo.

YES!!!!

Studies have shown (Science Daily) kids who spend time playing outdoors have greatly improved attention spans. Maybe it's because they blew off a bunch of excess energy?! Who knows, but it's better than drugging them. Maybe the scout was off Ritalin in the woods because he didn't need Ritalin in the woods.

-Blast, giving Martin a standing ovation

I'm with you there. I'm sure there are one or two kids somewhere that really need Ritalin, but if you go by the usual symptoms of ADHD, just about every single kid has it!

Go here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention-Deficit_Disorder#Diagnosis
and tell me that doesn't describe every kid you know.

Heck, I must have had it. After all, I accidentally shot my third grade teacher with a crossbow made from a large hairpin, a mechanical pencil and string pulled out of my sock. Maybe I still have it…

I'm a firm believer in the Bill Cosby school of child psychology:
"All children have brain damage."

That is not surprising at all. I'll bet that a good 25% of the kids at camp have been stuck there by parents who would rather be doing something other than being parents. Drugging their kids is just one way to avoid the perceived hassle of dealing with them. Sending them to camp is even better.

When I was young my family vacationed together. No camp. I was a lucky boy.

Thanks for teh rant. I agree, Ritalin is way over-prescribed.
"calming down enough to show an interest in television" -- like that's a good thing.

Snippets about the find here: http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2007/03/20/ap/headlines/d8o046u80.txt

From the article: "As a Scout, Michael had had some wilderness training... They do a great job in the Scouts of educating the kids of what to beware of and tips."

Like WHAT, for instance??? Don't wander off on your own in the wilderness? If you realize you're lost, STOP MOVING?

It took FOUR DAYS to find this kid a mile or so from camp, and I'll bet it was because he wouldn't stop moving.

Once again, dumb luck and the efforts of a bunch of volunteer searchers saves the day.

Sue

It's way too easy to say that ADD doesn't exist. Almost as easy as a teacher recommending psychiatric drugs because they're incapable of handling a class.

I've got ADD. I've had it all my life. Taking meds makes the difference between functioning and not.

ADD means Attention Deficit Disorder. ADHD means Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. They are not the same, despite usually being run together.

Hyperactivity is a kid thing, and often seen as a fault, which it isn't. In the school system, it replaces dyslexia as the excuse for poor teaching methods. As ADHD is dampered down, another "mental disability" will show up to replace it.

But ADD truly does exist, and by leaving hyperactivity out of the equation, it is probably very much underdiagnosed. Many of the kids who have it are quiet. Some of them even do well in school, simply because they force themselves to learn something.

When I found I had it, I was shocked, and it bothered me for a long time. I always thought I was "normal" (relatively, anyway). I thought everyone's mind worked like mine. Then I found that not only did I seem to think differently from a lot of people (I knew this ), but I had trouble learning things. In school and most my working life, I was able to take notes and refer to them to get the job done until I was used to doing it. Then I got a job where I wasn't allowed notes, and talk about S hitting the F. I felt like a total idiot. They would tell/show/explain something, and unless I could keep doing it right away, over and over, I forgot a lot of it. Talk about having to be retrained after lunch! I guess I'm bright enough, but I just have the attention span of a gnat. It's more debilitating than you could realize without experiencing it.

So please don't blow off the suggestion of ADD if someone dares suggest your kid (or YOU) have it. Have an evaluation done. Educate yourself. Ask questions. INSIST on answers to your questions. If you don't get them, go elsewhere. But don't handicap your child because of your wishful thinking or other people's opinions.

There are naturopathic treatments that really do help (that's what I take) if you don't want 'hardcore' drugs.

Sue

great post martin

No doubt in my mind it took 3 days considering terrain and condition Search and rescue is not just a walk in the park.

To reinforce what Martin said, one thing that a lot of folks don't realize is that Ritalin use is a bar to military service. That might seem like a good thing to some, but certainly not all. Do you really want to red flag your kid for life?

Recently I was asked to help out with a Cub Scout pack here in Brisbane. These are young boys and girls (yes, they have girls in cub scouts here) who are 8 to 10 years old. The first day I was in class, I mostly observed how the class interacted, helped out with setup, and spoke to the kids a bit one-on-one. What was apparent was that every one of these kids must have ADHD, as they seemed incapable of any sort of self control, were constantly distracted from the task at hand, and had the scout leaders (both young adult women) yelling at them to get their attention and try to control the unwanted behavior.

On my second visit, I was asked to teach the kids how to make a survival bracelet (just like the one we've seen here on this forum). At first, I had to deal with all the frenetic energy that had been the usual habit. Instead of trying to captivate a lost crowd, I took one of them aside and began teaching them how to do the weave in front of the rest. Once the kid had it going, I moved on to another one and got them started, and so on. Many were simply unwilling to focus on the task, that is until the first one started getting excited because hers was forming up. I never yelled at any of the kids, I left the other scoutmasters to keep them from wandering off too far, and I actually taught the scoutmasters how to do the weave so that they could also help out. By the end of the session, most of the kids were busy working on their bracelet, a few were still wanting to visit and carry on, but the group was essentially quiet and under control. By the end of the night, I had picked one of the younger kids who stayed on task the whole night and, in front of everyone there, I awarded her my LED flashlight that I had since first going to Baghdad. I told her about how special the flashlight was and with her dad standing just a short distance away I showed her how to operate it. On the side of the flashlight was one word, "Attitude" (how great a coincidence that was). It was time to replace it anyways, though it was still quite functional and in pretty good shape considering.

The next meeting, most of the kids came up at the beginning and asked if I was going to show them any more cool things to make.

IMHO, ADHD is an excuse for adults to justify not dealing with kids in the manner to which we have evolved. ADHD cannot be some new disorder, just recently visited upon mankind. So how was it dealt with in the eons before modern psychology discovered this "novelle clinique"?

This may sound a bit crude, but I believe it is consistent with our history, and I know it sure works well. When I was growing up, I spent a good deal of my time doing chores. School, playtime, and even meals were a privilege. If I didn't get the chores done, then I would be prohibited from my privileges until they got done. I hated doing chores, but I had no choice. It taught me to value my free time, to appreciate my provisions, and to focus on doing well (if I didn't bring home good grades, then I got more chores, dad figuring that manual labor would be more in my future and wanting to condition me accordingly to that lifestyle, or motivate me to aspire to greater accomplishments). I only ever missed a few meals (surprisingly I didn't die, just got really hungry). I also didn't just sit around when I had the chance to go play either. Sitting around was a sure invitation that I needed something more to do.

I believe there are some kids who need medication. I met one who had suffered some brain damage at birth. You could run that boy into the ground, and he would still fidget so much he would scratch sores on his face. He was otherwise fairly normal. When he got on the right medication (and that didn't happen right away), he became a lot more functional and able to integrate with his peers. However, I do not think that most of the kids on meds today really should be. I look for cause and effect. Without physical cause, there can be no associated manifestation. That means that whatever abberrant behavior is observed can be conditioned and trained to be under control (I suspect that sounds suspiciously Dianetic, if so, then that's what I've been doing with all my dogs over the years, with great success I might add). I won't say you can eliminate it, as it is a personality trait, and I abhor the notion of conformity. I think we are all different in many ways, and the dynamics of human psyche challenge the notion of labels for normalcy, thank God. We all have our strengths and our weaknesses, some would say alchohol really helps them do better. To each his own. Susan's example is a great indication of how we can adapt to overcome inherent difficulties to accomplish great things.

Back to the point, I reckon it was the extra clothing and the modicum of training he retained that had a bigger impact on his survival than all the drugs he's been given over time. I doubt very much that Ritalin or any other mind altering chemical is going to make a huge difference in our ability to survive such an ordeal.

I thought I'd share an interesting reaction I received from the Scouts in my troop tonight. After we opened the meeting, we all sat down in a big circle, and I asked them if they had heard about the Scout that had been lost since Saturday, and was found today. Many of them had, some hadn't. I gave a basic recap of what we knew about the story to get them on the same page, then I asked them what they thought of the situation, what they think went wrong, what they'd do differently, etc. Then I let them talk for a while.

I was actually a bit reassured by what I heard.

The initial reactions were disbelief, not that it couldn't happen, but, that it took 4 days to find a kid that was a mile from the campsite. I tried to jot down some of the things that came out. They said things like:
"What an idiot, didn't he STOP when he knew he was lost?"
"Why didn't he blow his whistle, or bang some rocks or sticks to make noise?"
"Why did he leave the campsite by himself?"
"If he made a fire, they would have found him faster, and he could have stayed warm while he waited."
"Yeah, and maybe he could have boiled that water he was drinking out of the stream, might be nasty bugs and stuff in there, he could get the runs from bad water like after eating too much of Mr _____'s Dutch Oven chili" (LOL on that)
"He should have used his flashlight at night to try to signal"
"Who walks out in the woods by themself, especially without a map or compass?"
"If he had his trash bag, he could have made a sleeping bag out of it"
"In the woods, he could make a lean-to with some branches like we did at camp last year"
"He should have had something shiny to flash at the helecopters"

I stopped taking notes at some point, and was amazed to watch a couple of the older guys start to "coach" the new guys. After a while, we kinda broke up this activity, because they had some planning for our upcoming camping trip, but, it was a good 15 minutes of these guys basically brainstorming about the scenario. It was really pretty cool to watch. It was also interesting that they just assumed the boy had certain things on his person if he was in the woods, something we kinda drill into them once or twice a year, maybe 4 or 5 months ago most recently. I asked them at one point what they figure he probably had in his pockets, since the story said his backpack was left at camp. They said he probably had a knife, flashlight, matches or a lighter, maybe a trash bag or space blanket, a whistle, and water bottle.(Most of them hang a Nalgene water bottle on their pants with a caribiner around camp.) They rattled off other things he should have in a daypack, but, I think they all thought about what they carry around in their pockets anytime we're camping. They knew he should have a map and compass, for example, but, seemed to conceed that most of them don't have them in their pockets hanging around camp. The whistle, knife, fire, trash bag, and water kept coming back. Not a bad place to start if you are already wearing appropriate clothing. Not exactly all of the 10 essentials, but, some pretty key things to make waiting for rescue a little easier.

When we were locking up the church for the night, one of their dad's, who isn't at many meetings, but, tonight had been lurking and listening off to the side because he came to bring us some camp paperwork and a payment, basically said something like: "what you're doing here is important"

I gotta say, sometimes you wonder if anything you're doing with kids penetrates their skulls full of mush... tonight, I really felt good that some of them had actually absorbed basic survival knowledge over time, and were at least marginally better prepared than average. I wasn't teaching anything tonight, just kinda doing a "quiz" that turned into a great discussion. There is hope.

Great story. And definitely, this job is really something to be proud of! In Russia we had the obligatory course of "Civil defense" once every week for several years of study in the school. They were in fact really useful urban and wilderness survival lessons. I'm still remember (past more than 20 years) our class on wilderness trips full of survival games. So sad it was discontinued with the Soviet Era collapse.

The only thing I would point out to them is that a mile diameter centered on camp is over 3 square miles to be search. If you have a tile floor where you meet, if they are a foot on a side, ask them how big they are.

Yes, it means math. And it provides a really concrete example to go with this kid as to why it is important to increase your "size" with noise and visual signals.

The way I heard it, he took off to try to get the road and thumb it home?

I want to formally apologize on behalf of all of my fellow Texans... We try to take care of the scum ourselves, but some slip through the cracks...

Shows just how important a whistle can be...
He said he kept shouting to the rescuers, but that they never heard him!...

That article was priceless!!!

And I agree completely...
The percentage of children, diagnosed with ADHD, is too high to be real... Either that, or ADHD needs to be removed from the category of a mental disease and declared to be one of the common personality types.

My personal view, is that it is a REAL condition, but one that is over diagnosed to an EXTREME degree...

If I remember correctly, grades in classes right after recess and PE are higher than at any other time of the day. This is thought to be because the kids are tired after running around during recess, and do not have the energy to be disruptive... But the trend is to shorten, or eliminate recess, and also to limit physical activity during that time...

This is the first case I've heard of where a kid getting lost in the woods might have actually saved his life. Why? Because they are now reporting that he was trying to hike out to the road so he could Hitch-Hike home!

The problems with this kid (and his home life) most likely go way beyond any kind of disorder. The dad is an attorney & more than likely works mega hours each week & the scouting trip was just another excuse to get rid of the kid for a few days.

My wife & I led our son's Cubscout group for 4 years. There are parents that get involved, help out & go on the trips. And there are parents who are looking for any excuse to dump their kid off on someone else... my gut is telling me this is an example of the later.

Maybe I can arrainge to have him sent back for a belated "treatment"...

Well as it turns out he RAN AWAY. So it was a deliberate action because he wasn't having fun. It is sad but it has had a happy ending as he was found.

He was planning Hitchhiking so the getting lost in the woods may have saved his life.

The only thing I would point out to them is that a mile diameter centered on camp is over 3 square miles to be search. If you have a tile floor where you meet, if they are a foot on a side, ask them how big they are.

I think that was one of the most amazing things to them. One of the concepts we talked about was how easy it would be to walk a mile or so from camp, and yet how big an area that is to search in the woods. It helped reinforce the importance of signalling, and also the importance of stopping before they go too far. I like the analogy of the floor tiles, I might use that one in a future meeting, thanks.

I guess the point of my message was that I felt a lot better knowing that something we were doing was actually getting through to these guys, because it's often hard to tell if anything happens between those ears!

It's kinda sad now that we hear about how he was trying to hitch hike home, and that his dad was essentially paying him to go on the camping trip. As others have mentioned, there are always boys that are basically on these trips as extended daycare for the parents. I think that is sad, but, I look at it a different way. From my perspective, those boys need us even more than the ones who have parents actively involved with the troop, so we always go out of our way to make them feel "at home".

I have our summer camp photo of our 20 or so boys on my desk at work. 2 other dad's, who are my Assistant Scoutmasters look forward to spending "summer vacation" with our extended family each July. I feel lucky to have such a good group of boys and adult leaders, and wish more of the moms and dads would join us. They are missing a chance to see their kids in a different light, and see them grow from boys to men. I guess my comments are starting to stray from Survival Forum to Campfire, so I'll stop now

I have been a cubscout & Webelo den leader and assistant scoutmaster for a scout troop. There is no doubt that there is a certain amount of "baby sitters of america" out there in both organizations. Yes, we leaders get agrivated at times when it becomes very obvious. There are also a lot of dedicated parents that contribute time to those organizations to help make them work.

However, there is another group out there that believe that the program helps their kids, but are just not outdoors type of people. Our advancement chair is very active, but has never camped with the troop. I was involved with a summer camp situation where a youth, who had never gotton homesick on a weekend camp, that was a complete basket case by mid week of summer camp. The parents are good people that believed in the scouting program. Kids get homesick. Not every parent likes to camp. A lot of parents believe that this program works to instill good values and leadership in young men.

Please do not slam the dad for trying to get his son involved without knowing the "rest of the story". I would bet there is not a parent on this forum that has not had to bribe their kid to do something that the parent knew would be good for the kid, but the kid just didn't see it in the same light.

Possibly this was a baby sitting case, but maybe not. I can't tell from the news reports.

AMEN!

I like it!

Excellent point!

I actually grew up with an alcholic father which after 5th grade turned into a single parent home. And some of my best memories/experiences are going to scout campouts & church summer camps & being involved in a good church youth group. Those are the places where I found out what real men are like & how I should live my life.

So you are absolutely correct in that those are the kids that need us most!

Actually, bribery I think sends an entirely poor message to kids, rewards for good work might be more appropriate. I feel that the activity itself should be reward enough, so I prefer to give them a choice. They can choose to do the thing I think they will benefit from more, or they can choose the other option, which will help build their character more and teach them a deeper appreciation of property ownership. (which involves an endless list of household chores, or heading to the berry-picking fields, or out to the woodpile, etc). I prefer to have my kids feel that the choices I present them are privileged opportunities to avoid the mundane tasks and that they have inherent value enough to be worth their interest. It worked pretty good for me, and it does require that parents get more involved in their childrens lives.

I think if the dad really wanted to get his son involved, then he would've taken the time and made the effort to ensure that the kid was interested and motivated to participate. Nothing in the story indicates this was the case, so it is easy to conclude the worst about the man. I can't see it as anything but either laziness or general disinterest, both of which are repugnant.

I've not been with my kid for two years now, but the previous 16 were spent taking the time and making whatever effort was needed to raise a responsible, respectable, confident and capable young adult. If you are going to have children, then they need to be the most important thing in your life, above career, above personal interests; you need to be willing to do whatever it takes to ensure their success, or else you have failed in life. That's my philosophy anyways.

I didn't leave until I was sure the kid was capable of functioning without me being right there, that she had learned the set of values she needed to and was able to apply them accordingly. Then my priority shifted from gentle but firm guidance to earning more money so I could pay for her college needs and whateve else she had to have to get ahead over the next 4 to 6 years. I do not enjoy the work I do, nor do I like being away from my loving wife, but by doing this I have doubled my earning capability and I am improving her chances to accomplish as much as she likes by increasing the funds available to her.

To her credit, she has earned a college scholarship in my absence, got a job, made the varsity volleyball team, and is setting records in track and field at her high school. She basically self motivated through all this, despite having to move to a new school her junior year. As I discovered from the first daughter, even with a scholarship they need a lot of financial help these days.

I have no tolerance left for parents who foist off their responsiblities onto others. That especially includes single parents who've elected to go it alone because they are unhappy with the choice they've made for a partner. This trend of apathy in family life by men and women who know better is rotting the core of our society. There's not so much wrong with the children these days who get into trouble; there's plenty wrong with their immature and selfish parents.

This is a terribly complex subject. I believe scouting has a tremendous impact to boys lifes. I joined as a cub and stayed until 18. I felt that it had such an impact in my life that I joined up again with my son. (just as much fun the second time around!!!) Its not for everyone. You lose some to sports and other interests. Some stay. Four of the boys who were in my cub den will be getting their eagle award together this summer (including my son).

We like to get parents involved. You lose adult volunteers the same as youth. We have a lot of involved parents. We always alow parents who have not registered to attend campouts. However, without registration, there is no training. Sometimes it is difficult to curb untrained parents enthusiasm and let the boys run the troop. "Never do for a boy what a boy can do for himself." Boy scouts is not like cub scouts. We expect to see a certain amount of distancing from parents. The boys learn to cook and clean up for themselves. Adjustment for 11 and 12 year olds is easy for most, more difficult for others.

As I recall the story, the dad was going to give the boy $5 if he didn't have fun on the trip. The newscaster noted that the dad payed up. That seems more like a reverse bribe. Having seen a lot of boys go through our troop over the last seven years, the first few trips can be sometimes be tough. My own son didn't want to go camping the first trip out.

I really don't want to defend the dad since I don't know him or his motivations. However, I feel forced in that direction because I know a lot of good parents who want to give their sons the benefit of scouting, but do not have the interest to participate themselves.

I always felt every boy can benefit from scouting. If we could only get them in the door and out in the woods, we could peak enough interest to keep them long enough to change their lives. I think any parent that brings their sons, to get them involved, is to be commended. Could they do more? Certainly. Sign up, get trained, get involved.

Some parents coach, some help the band, some are involved in other civic organizations or the church. Some help the scouts. Some do nothing. We all have only so many hours to go around.

Yes, scout leaders babysit. We know it. But it is for the benefit of the boys.

I will get off my soapbox.

"I have no tolerance left for parents who foist off their responsiblities onto others. That especially includes single parents who've elected to go it alone because they are unhappy with the choice they've made for a partner. This trend of apathy in family life by men and women who know better is rotting the core of our society. There's not so much wrong with the children these days who get into trouble; there's plenty wrong with their immature and selfish parents."

That is so true. The kids who are so obnoxious today didn't get there by themselves.

But the ones who are truly amazing are the ones who rise above parents who've never cared, and make something of their lives. One of my friends is one of four kids of a woman who was an alcohoic since she was about 12. Dad was a cop who let her do as she wanted, and was rarely around. My friend was the eldest, and she raised the younger ones. They all eventually escaped and lived together, supporting each other, and all graduated from college. In later years, they took care of that nasty old woman until she had to be put into a nursing home with Alzheimers. Today, at least one of them visits with her every day.

A young man I met about ten years ago was the child of a hardcore junkie. He didn't sleep in a real bed until he was 13. He was 18 when I met him, had passed his GED, was working at two jobs and was attending college.

Coming home from his job, he fell asleep, crossed the center line and hit a log truck head-on.

Sue

Sue

Yep, I would agree with you about the values of scouting for young folk. It is good to see parents step up and take an active role in their children's development. I also agree that as the kids get older and more experienced, it is natrual that the parents direct involvement with the development diminish, and they become more the cheerleader and enabler, and eventually the proud spectator.

I guess I can go along with your position about parents who don't share an interest in some of their child's undertakings, so long as they are enthusiastic about whatever they've got their kid involved in, and do also actively particpate to a major degree in other mutually interesting activities.

In this case, I think the dad was just too busy to spend the time needed to help his son develop a healthy interest. Too busy chasing other interests that probably have nothing to do with his kid. Rather than spend time with his child doing anything together, he took the easy way out, at least based on the kid's reaction you would think this is the case. Offering the kid $5.00 was just motivation not to participate at all. I can pay a kid $5.00 to not eat a candy bar once too, and feel pretty sure he'll take the deal.

I've not always been able to do all the things with my kids that were available. Sometimes it is a matter of priorities, and sometimes I make the sacrifice to be there for them no matter what. I also make a tremendous effort to draw them into my interests as well, because it is there that I can pass on much of my values to them I think. I guess it is simple logic for me, how much of my child's future success do I want to leave up to chance, and the answer is only what is beyond my limits to provide for. In return, I am allowed to expect them to perform, to respect the sacrifice, and to learn values and develop confidence. So far, I have not been disappointed, and my girls have done great things and are glad that I was there to instill the desire and give the support to do.

Like I said before, it ain't easy, but it is required if you are to be a parent.

Ben, not to many people can say what you did about single parents and still have my respect. I'm not sure where you are.

My birth father is the kind of guy who thinks black eyes and broken fingers are sexy- he didn't get his little kink until after I was born. Do you think less of my mother because she eventually was able to get out? Or just less of me because I'm the product of a single parent household?

Or did you speak without thinking through all the variables?

Keep in mind that there are a lot of reasons to get a divorce. I've seen people who's parents stayed together "for the kids". And those people are just as likely to be screwed up as those who's parents got that divorce and those who's families aren't screwed up. I've seen parents who should have great kids have children that are messed up in the head. I've seen kids that were basically forced to fend for themselves since they were six become great people.

And yes, I believe nature as more to do with the outcome of childhood than nurture does. Some kids are just born messed up- I knew one of my cousins was going to be trouble when he was 2. And I was right.

"...That especially includes single parents who've elected to go it alone because they are unhappy with the choice they've made for a partner..."

My wife left her first husband after a broken jaw and looking down the barrel of his .44 mag, so I guess you could say that she was unhally with the choice she made in a partner. She then raised two kids as a single mom, working graveyard shift as a law enforcement dispatcher, taking college classes, doing her Navy Reserve time, being a room mom at school, taking the kids to their various clubs and interests, being an assistant Brownie leader, the list goes on and on and on. I have no idea how or when she slept. Beind divorced often has little to do with the quality of the parent. Not all divorced parents go on the Jerry Springer Show...