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#88525 - 03/16/07 10:15 AM Fear of...
Since2003 Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2205
I was surprised - almost shocked - with the recent thread about airline travel, and got to thinking about Fear of the unknown, fear of change, fear of fear itself.

A major component of fear is a lack of experience. I recently listened to a tirade by a relative about what a "filthy, graffiti-ridden mess" the New York Subways are, and how "Dangerous" New York is because of all the "rampant crime". Now, if you have ridden the subways in the last 20 years, you know - from first hand experience - that the graffiti problem was eradicated long ago.

And you also would know that New York is one of the safest cities in America. It's not even on the list of dangerous cities anymore, and hasn't been for years:
http://www.morganquitno.com/xcit06pop.htm

But this isn't jsut about New York or Air Travel. I've posted here before, but for some reason it seems that today I need to say it loud and clear - your mind is your best survival tool, and experiences reduce your fear OR they can give you a proper validation of your fears.

Let me give you an example. When I was training to become a firefighter, we did a burn building drill on a hot August day. It was one of the first times I had been in fire, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise, it's pretty awful. The steam is the part I hate, you feel it right through your gloves, especially when you're crawling in the wet soot. After about 4 straight hours in turnout gear, going an and out of the fire, my heart rate shot up to 188, and I started to pass out. It was heatstroke, I rolled out of school that day in an ambulance with an IV and a heart monitor.
When I went back to the burn building the next time, it was just as hot...but having experienced the fire, I was able to pace myself, think and keep cool - mentally - and to identify the real hazards in the fire, while trying to filter out the irrelevant noise. In recent years I've been reminded that I need to take a similar view of things when it comes to people, places, cultures and situations. When I am afraid of something, 90% of the time it's because I've not experienced it before, and at that point, I try very hard to remember that what I'm afraid of is NOT what is about to happen or what I'm about to do, it's that I'm afraid that I don't know what will happen or what to do. And surprisingly if you hold your fear off to the side and treat it as this thing that's a reaction to your inexperience, you can either let your inexperience feed your fear, or you can overwhelm fear with experience.
One last fire company story, kind of a sad one. A long while ago, I was at one of my first "messy" car wrecks. In this case, a guy hit a tree at 40+ miles per hour, was not wearing a seatbelt, and for some reason, he had a set of barbells in the back seat, which smashed into him from behind. The physical trauma was tremendous. I was ordered to do patient assessment, "Check if he's breathing" was the simple order. I couldn't tell where his face was, there was so much trauma and blood, and I was scared of what I was seeing. But then, I realized that there was something more important than my fear, and that was that the guy WAS ALIVE and we needed to get him out. "Breathing and a Pulse!" I shouted and then we got a BP (something absurd like 70/50 and falling), and we got the guy out. From that moment on my fear of those situations was replaced with a fear that's more real and valid - my fear is based on if we mess up and the person in the wreck dies, or we get hurt by an exploding airbag. But the fear of the gore and the trauma, that's not as big factor anymore. It's not pleasant, don't get me wrong, but it's expected. We all look the same after a bad car wreck.

So, this long pre-coffee ramble is a bit of advice to all of you who are equipped for Armageddon and being lost in the woods or trapped in a "big city" but unwilling to actually go into the woods or a go to a distant city or country. Don't let fear rule your day. Don't let the unknown become an enemy, because eventually, all that will be left to you are your familiar fears of the unknown, which thrive in a mind that has no new experiences.

Don't be equipped because you're afraid of what could happen, be equipped so you can enjoy life!

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#88534 - 03/16/07 02:54 PM Re: Fear of... [Re: Since2003]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
Good point. Fear of the unknown is, in my opinion, much bigger than some imagined "bad thing." When I first got into law enforcement, I was worried about my first fatal T/C, my first felony stop, my first fight on the side of some freeway, my first flare pattern in the middle of the El Segundo curve, etc etc etc. And as I experience each one, without any hesitation or shivers as it happened, I discovered that I was somehow already equipped to handle each one rapidly and properly. Don't know if was my training, experience (I was a whopping 25 years old), the fear of looking bad in front of my peers and the public, or just blind dumb luck. After a very short (in my estimation) time, I was able to handle whatever came up without any problems whatsoever. I don't recall feeling anything like fear since 1971. I do have a healty respect for a lot of things, and try to maintain a high level of awareness where ever I happen to be, because I know that bad things can happen in an instant, but fear? Nope.

A few weeks ago the campground we are "working" in had the biggest wood chipper I have ever seen (this thing will chew up a 12" diameter log at high speed). My wife and I were both feeding wood into it as fast as we could drag it up, the young male seasonal worker at the park was supposed to be helping, but he was sooo afraid of that thing he only fed one piece into it all day, spent the rest of the day just staring at it from 100 ft away, almost visibly shaking. He apparently has not learned to overcome his fears yet...
_________________________
OBG

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#88566 - 03/16/07 09:31 PM Re: Fear of... [Re: OldBaldGuy]
teacher Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 988
Good stories. Training and practice, I say. Learn it (whatever "it" is) when you're not under the tremendous stress of an actual event.

Some First Aid classes are taught using 'practice' scenarios --OK, you walk into a room and you see a person with a bleeding ...etc. A great way to apply those skills.

Teacher

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#88583 - 03/17/07 03:50 AM Re: Fear of... [Re: teacher]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
"So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself -- nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance."
--- Franklin D. Roosevelt, 1933
(For those weak in history, he was talking about the Great Depression.)

Sue

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#88590 - 03/17/07 04:55 AM Re: Fear of... [Re: Susan]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
Those Roosevelt boys were good for all kinds of great quotes...
_________________________
OBG

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#88640 - 03/18/07 12:25 AM Re: Fear of... [Re: OldBaldGuy]
Stretch Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 707
Loc: Alamogordo, NM
I'm not afraid of New York. I'm afraid of Washington, DC. I've been there many times and, even though I carry a firearm, residents there cannot. Nor can they own one in their own home (capguns excepted, although I don;t think they can be manufactured anymore because someone complained that they make a loud noise).

Yes, I'm afraid of that city. Where else do you get the gift of an accelerated crime rate by the simple act of banning legal ownership of weapons?

Why am I afraid? Because the novel idea (started in 1976) of becoming famous (We have the highest crime rate per capita anywhere the world over!! We are number 1 ! Look at us!!!) could spread to other cities and, eventually, entire states.

Other than that, I'm only afraid of fires.
_________________________
DON'T BE SCARED
-Stretch

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#88651 - 03/18/07 02:30 AM Re: Fear of... [Re: Stretch]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
Everyone in their right mind is afraid of Washington D.C., for one reason or another. I understand that it and Chicago have the highest crime rates in the U.S. Both have restrictive gun-control laws. There must be a connection... mad

Sue

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#88657 - 03/18/07 04:29 AM Re: Fear of... [Re: Susan]
Stretch Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 707
Loc: Alamogordo, NM
Chicago may have "restrictive gun-control" laws but DC doesn't. It has the "You will not own a gun" law. The connection, as you already know, is that criminals love those kinds of laws. Soon, they'll be loving the "You will not own a knife" law. And after that will come the "You will not own land" law. [yawn]
_________________________
DON'T BE SCARED
-Stretch

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#88679 - 03/18/07 04:09 PM Re: Fear of... [Re: Stretch]
raydarkhorse Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 510
Loc: on the road 10-11 months out o...
AHHHH come on I read a great speach once that talked about how people not having guns would make things safer and make it easier for the police to protect the population. It was writtten by a Time magazines man of the year, and you know Time magazine could never be wrong, and Adolf Hitler would never have lied, I mean look how he protected the german citizens.


Edited by raydarkhorse (03/18/07 04:09 PM)
_________________________
Depend on yourself, help those who are not able, and teach those that are.

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#88728 - 03/19/07 12:22 AM Re: Fear of... [Re: raydarkhorse]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Well, fear is a part of our existence. I would say that fear can be categorized as rational and irrational. Rational fear is for the most part a good thing. It generates a healthy and necessary aversion to harm and allows for reason to benefit our learning where experience alone would be a bit counterproductive. Having a healthy fear of wild critters keeps some of us from wandering around in bear country without suitable precautions. While I was in Iraq, rational fear kept me alert and aware of my surroundings and thinking about what to do if... Irrational fear would've paralyzed me, made me do stupid things, and ultimately I would not have lasted as long as I did.

One trip I took to Taji I was on the threshold from rational to irrational. I managed to keep my nerve. When the security group cmdr asked if I was scared, I said yes, but I was still willing to go. Fortunately nothing happened, but it can be a bit rough driving in all that traffic and dodging the big "potholes" from earlier car bombs. Especially when I was 200 meters from one getting popped in front of me a while before, with all the passengers in the primary vehicle getting killed.

I stayed alert, but every time traffic slowed us to a crawl, or we went through a checkpoint, I got exceedingly nervous. Was it warranted, well, there wasn't much I could do about it if someone popped us once we were out the gate, so taking all that adrenaline probably didn't do a great deal for my health. It did give me some perspective later on, and make me think about what is really important in life. Now, everyday I am not in Baghdad is a good day. I tell people when it gets rough here at work (Denver, Manhattan, Phoenix, Brisbane) that at least nobody is shooting at me or trying to blow me up, which is a really good thing.

Now when I got caught out in the parking lot one day during a rocket attack, the adrenaline did help me outrun a couple young marines. Of course, I needed the oxygen bottle once I got to the bunker, and the marines had something to talk about for the day, and I had to go back afterwards and pick up all the junk that fell out of my pockets, but at least I learned when I have to, I still have the hustle in me...


_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#88736 - 03/19/07 01:03 AM Re: Fear of... [Re: Susan]
Since2003 Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2205
Originally Posted By: Susan
I understand that it and Chicago have the highest crime rates in the U.S. Both have restrictive gun-control laws. There must be a connection... mad

Sue


Before you get crabby with me on this, I'm an NRA life member, CCW permit holder, I can and do carry a pistol from time to time. I think the right to keep and bear arms is absolute, unquestionable and without a doubt an essential part of a free society.

That said, here's some numbers from http://www.morganquitno.com/dang06.htm

Gun laws seem to have little to do with the danger rates:

Most Dangerous States, 2006:
1. Nevada (still the leader for 2006)
2. Louisiana
3. New Mexico
4. Arizona
5. Maryland (thanks to Baltimore)
6. South Carolina
7. Florida
8. Tenesee
9. Alaska
10. California

Illinois ranks 19th.
Pennsylvania 29
Massachusetts is 30
New York is at 31
New Jersey is 32

By virtue of the fact that nobody lives there anymore, North Dakota comes in 50th in the list of most dangerous states.

Lets look at the cities:

Highest Crime Cities 2005 (Violent crime per 100,00 residents)

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921299.html

1.St. Louis MO. (Right to Carry state)
2.Detroit MI (Right to Carry state)
3.Flint MI (Right to Carry state)
4.Compton CA (Limited/No Carry State)
5.Camden NJ (No Carry State)
6.Birmingham AL (Right to Carry state)
7.Cleveland OH (Right to Carry state)
8.Oakland CA (Limited/No Carry State)
9.Youngstown OH (Right to Carry state)
10.Gary, IN. (Right to Carry state)

Washington DC Comes in at #19
Reading, PA comes in at #21
Orlando Florida comes in at #25

New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston and Philadelphia don't make the top 25 at all.

Having been in all of New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston and Philadelphia at least once all in the last 18 months, and having been to Reading PA, Camden NJ and Oakland CA as well, I can assure you that these statistics are an accurate reflection of the "feel" of the city.

I'll say it again. If you've never been to New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston or Philadelphia and you claim these are "dangerous" places, I can't fathom what you're basing your fears on. I feel far less safe driving on some state highway in Ohio than I do on the Subway in New York City.

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#88737 - 03/19/07 01:05 AM Re: Fear of... [Re: Stretch]
Since2003 Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2205
Originally Posted By: Stretch
Chicago may have "restrictive gun-control" laws but DC doesn't. It has the "You will not own a gun" law. The connection, as you already know, is that criminals love those kinds of laws. Soon, they'll be loving the "You will not own a knife" law. And after that will come the "You will not own land" law. [yawn]


Read the news lately?

This March 9, 2007, AP article reports

A federal appeals court overturned the District of Columbia's long-standing handgun ban Friday, rejecting the city's argument that the Second Amendment right to bear arms applied only to militias.

In a 2-1 decision, the judges held that the activities protected by the Second Amendment "are not limited to militia service, nor is an individual's enjoyment of the right contingent upon his or her continued intermittent enrollment in the militia."

A lower-court judge in 2004 had told six residents they did not have a constitutional right to own handguns. The plaintiffs include residents of high-crime neighborhoods who wanted the guns for protection.

The Bush administration has endorsed individual gun-ownership rights, but the Supreme Court has never settled the issue.

If the dispute makes it to the high court, it would be the first case in nearly 70 years to address the Second Amendment's scope.

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#88739 - 03/19/07 01:21 AM Re: Fear of... [Re: benjammin]
Since2003 Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2205
[quote=benjammin While I was in Iraq, rational fear kept me alert and aware of my surroundings and thinking about what to do if... Irrational fear would've paralyzed me, made me do stupid things, and ultimately I would not have lasted as long as I did. [/quote]

Rational Fear: An excellent concept. Fear what you know can kill you, not what you think might kill you.

For example, there was 44,000 people killed last year in car wrecks. That means every day of the year, about 123 people die on the highways of America.

On the other hand, the total number of people killed in the US and Canada by a mountain lion from 1991 to 2003 was 10. That's T-E-N. Ten. The biggest risk you face going for a ride to see the woods the drive.

If you really want to know danger, go to the hospital.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/06/eveningnews/main2440767.shtml
"Between 44,000 and 98,000 Americans die in hospitals each year, killed by their care, not by their disease..."

Oh, there's more..much more...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3603439.stm

My point: I think that a rational level of fear is healthy, but rationality comes only from being informed of the risks and being willing to accept not what you "know" but what is factual and objective.


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#88740 - 03/19/07 01:25 AM Re: Fear of... [Re: Since2003]
Stretch Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 707
Loc: Alamogordo, NM
Yes Martin I saw that and considered posting the article here. I refrained however because I had already strayed too far from what I perceived was your intention in this thread.

AND, I resent the idea that New Mexico is the #3 most dangerous State!!! (could you edit your thread and bump us down to 5th or 6th?)

Washington DC's crime rate GREW after the passage of the 1976 law banning gun ownership. I may have overstated their ranking (for the excitement or maybe just for the fun of it), but I would challenge the purveyor of your list to show a marked INCREASE in crime, violent crime, sweet crime, or any other crime, following the passage of a gun ban or the slapping down of said ban.

That said....thanks for the list. I didn't know those facts.


Edited by Stretch (03/19/07 01:25 AM)
_________________________
DON'T BE SCARED
-Stretch

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#88789 - 03/19/07 01:18 PM Re: Fear of... [Re: Stretch]
Since2003 Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2205
Oh, no, when the remove gun bans, crime goes sideways...

OK we're drifting, I'm an Admin, should know better. Let's stop this one here and if anyone wants to rave on, send me a private message and I'll be happy to continue behind closed doors.


Otherwise, I think we should drop this thread.

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#88857 - 03/20/07 03:44 AM Re: Fear of... [Re: Since2003]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Wow, I never saw the stats, but I always hated going to the hospital. The way I saw it, that's where folks go to die. Nice to know my apprehension was well justified.

As far as ranking areas by crime level, I'd say in general that makes some sense. However, there are places in New York City, such as parts of Queens, parts of Brooklyn, even parts of Manhattan, that I would not ever venture into without body armor and firepower; that is based on experience. I think most cities have similar sections where outsiders, naive fools, and those who openly display their affluence ought not venture without a suitable deterrent. To characterize a city as inherently more dangerous I think is too generalized. I simply don't go to those areas unless I need to, and then I go in prepared. That is the rational fear thing working for me.

Nuff said I reckon.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#88869 - 03/20/07 10:33 AM Re: Fear of... [Re: Since2003]
bigreddog Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 253
Reminds me of Tony Blauers saying 'Fear of fear itself'.

Too often we are afraid that when we do something we will be afraid. So we have replaced the fear of the activity with anxiety about being afraid when we do it.

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#88875 - 03/20/07 01:24 PM Re: Fear of... [Re: Stretch]
norad45 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1506
Originally Posted By: Stretch
I resent the idea that New Mexico is the #3 most dangerous State!!! (could you edit your thread and bump us down to 5th or 6th?)



I too was wondering how they came to their conclusions. If you look at their methodology you will see that they give the same weight to burglary and auto theft that they do to rape and murder. If the goal is to determine the most "dangerous" state I find that a rather strange way to analyze the data. I guess maybe they were after a pre-determined result. There are "lies, da**ed lies, and statistics" as the man said.

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#88914 - 03/20/07 06:27 PM Read "The Psychology of Security" [Re: Since2003]
jmarkantes Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 138
Loc: Portland, OR, USA
I would definitely recommend everyone read Bruce Schneier's "The Psychology of Security". There are lots of articles, papers, and books on fear and people's reactions. Schneier's paper is a nice overview of a lot of the research out there. It touches on fear quite a bit but also security.

It's LONG, but really fascinating. People are crazy. smile
Jason

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#88943 - 03/20/07 09:33 PM Re: Fear of... [Re: bigreddog]
samhain Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 598
Loc: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

--- Yoda


Yeah, I know he was a puppet, but he did know what he was talking about.

Listening to our fear is one of the reasons we are alive. It's an alarm system to let us know we are in danger.

It's when we let our fears alone determine our focus and actions that we get ourselves into trouble.

Trust, but verify;

trust your feelings, but verify that there is an actual threat before acting.


_________________________
peace,
samhain autumnwood

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#89416 - 03/25/07 07:32 AM Re: Fear of... [Re: samhain]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
I've lived in cities and I've lived in the country. Mean people are everywhere, interspersed among the good ones. The psychopaths look like normal people.

Just the same, I'd rather live where protecting myself wasn't against the law.

It is said that here in WA State, half the people carry CCPs and the other half just carry.

Sue

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#89478 - 03/26/07 12:25 AM Re: Fear of... [Re: Susan]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Protecting yourself is almost always against the law these days.

Having the means to do so I think is more akin to what you are referring to.

There's plenty of case law in Worshington on prosecution of folks trying to defend themselves. I expect the rate to increase over time, based on the number immigrating there from other, less salient locations.

Just cuz they let you carry it don't mean you are entitled to use it whenever you believe you need to. It just means they'd rather charge you with a greater offense is all.

BTW, Washington also has a law on the books covering the crime of Affray. So if for some reason you don't keep that hogleg hidden and someone sees it, however unintentional, you just broke the law and can expect to get charged. When they say they don't want to see it, they mean it.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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