Not sure if you saw this, but in Doug Ritter's Blog he has an item entitled A Look at “The Ten Essentials” where he was interviewed about survival essentials, I found his comments regarding navigation gear very interesting:



Reliance on electronic gear is sure to raise the hair on some people's necks, but lately my thinking has evolved to exactly what Doug said. Its just that I was surprized to read that Doug said it.

A good mapping GPS - with the proper maps for the user's area loaded - is an incredibly powerful tool to prevent getting lost AND to find your way if lost. Yeah, I know "things" can go wrong with a GPS, but the reality is that today's electronics are really amazing dependable.

Given that statement, I still prefer to ALSO carry a good map, compass, and UTM grid because:

-They provide redundancy, in case the GPS does fail - its kind of like bringing matches even though I packed a lighter.
-The magnetic compass allows me to save battery life by turning the GPS off while following a bearing.
-A good map likely provides better detail than the map(s) available for the GPS (Garmin only provides 24K topo maps for national parks; the others are 100K).
-A good map provide a much easier to read "lay of the land".
-A map provides a place to take notes and make plans.

Ken K.

Not sure why you are surprised. This was an interview that focused on the great unwashed masses, not the enthusiast such as found here. As noted, give the average person a map and compass and they are lost, figuratively and soon enough, literally. I don't have to be happy this skill is becomming a lost art, but the reality is what it is and I'd be less than responsible if I didn't recognize it and recommend the best solution for the majority of people. I'd much rather they stay found tahn have to find them after they get lost. If encouraging them to cary a mapping GPS will do that, seems like a sensible way to go.

Doug, I'm shocked and appalled.

Blindly depending on only a GPS is a good way for the unwashed masses to get themselves into big trouble.

From the second story on this page:
http://www.outdoorsafe.com/SurvivalStories.htm

When he finally stopped panicking, he was able to reconstruct a map of the area from memory and find his way out. My point is that he would probably have been better off without the GPS to begin with!

How about "Stay out of the !@#%&* woods until you can grasp the most basic fundamentals of using a map and compass. Use your GPS to stay found but keep track of where you are on your paper map also."

If he did not tether his GPS to himself, what makes you think that he may not loose his map or compass? Again we are talking redundancy that we here on ETS generally practice (two knives, lighter and another type of fire starter).

I'll take this in the other direction. What is a good place to find comparisons of the newer models? All I have is an etrex that I haven't used in years.

I want the unwashed masses out in the woods. They are easier to snare then most wildlife.

Misanthrope

Throwing extra Tabasco sauce into the bag

My point is that he was intentionally wandering all over the place, totally oblivious to his situation, knowing that when he was ready to go home he would just turn on his GPS and follow it to his truck. Typical "unwashed mass" behavior.

If he had not had a GPS at all that day, he would have needed to pay attention to where he was at all times. Note that once he actually started using his brain, he was able to find his way out with NO map, NO compass and NO GPS.

I'm not saying a GPS is bad, I think they are great and can really get you out of trouble sometimes. But I wouldn't encourage someone who was befuddled by a map and compass to use it as a crutch. I'd advise them to stay home.

Its like telling the masses that they are too irresponsible to remember to tell someone where they are going and when they'll be back but if they carry a PLB that is a good substitute.

I agree with Doug on this one. The awefull truth is more and more people are going out in to the woods, most have no clue about what they are doing, if Doug's advice keeps just 1 person from becoming the subject of thread on this site it was worth it.

And if the same advice gets two people in trouble its not worth it.

I guess it is really a matter of two different philosophies. Abstinence vs. Safe Sex. One encourages responsible behavior, knowing that not everyone will follow it, and the other just tries to minimize the negative consequences of irresponsible behavior thus tacitly encouraging it.

And never the twain shall meet.

Thats not a fault of a GPS, one could just as easily have reached into their pocket for their map and/or compass and found it missing. Now if the story had went "found his GPS batteries were dead" or "couldn't get a GPS lock due to cloud cover" then you would have a valid point.

Almost seems like the same thing as the common calculator. Many people today can't do common math by using paper and pencil, but they do however use a calculator, some every day.

But one can't usually expect to wander around for hours ignoring navigation, then whip out a map and compass and find your position and the way home. (Yes you can triangulate, but you would know its not always possible to do that.) It encourages you to be aware of your position at all times.

How about being realistic?

Reality is what it is. You cannot change human nature and you cannot legislate common sense. I can try to encourage the use of available tools that may actually get used. Will some misuse them or be stupid? Sure, but we don't stop putting anti-lock brakes on automobiles because a well-trained driver in many cases can stop shorter with more control or because some people are encouraged to take more risks in adverse conditions assuming they will save them. Overall, it saves lives.

I'll stick with my advice because I know that it's the best overall solution considering the audience and the reality that is out there today. That's my job. I don't allow myself the luxury of being idealistic. It's counterproductive.

I agree that we seem to have a difference of opinion.

I don't agree that this will get more people in to trouble than it will help. If GPSs didn't have battery life indicators, were easily broken, or had enough failure rates to actually be a realistic concern my opinion would be different.

I honestly feel that Doug's advice will help many more people than it will hurt.

Re: Doug, NightHiker and Meline,

As I said, we have two incompatible philosophies. And I do hope that you are right in this case.

"People are going to [blindly wander in the woods] anyway, so we should tell them they should at least wear a [GPS]."

Great sources of info on GPS's:

http://gpsinformation.net/

http://forums.groundspeak.com

For handheld models it seems that the Garmin GPSMAP 60 and 76 series Cx and CSx models are the best of the best.

The new SiRF chipset on those is absolutely amazing in its ability to lock onto satellites.

Yes, the art of using a map and compass is quickly vanishing, whilst forays into the wilderness areas are increasing.

Since it is a given that people will go out into the woods regardless of their orienteering abilities, and since we are now a gadget society, it is a reasonable recommendation that people with little or no traditional navigation skills and subsequently no mindset for how to stay un-lost in the big woods ought to be advised to at least invest in something. The alternative view that without a GPS they would then resort to learning the proper skills or not venturing forth is unrealistic. People are going to do this because they don't know any better, overestimate their abilities, and are just plain lazy. A GPS can be considered the instant gratification answer to remaining un-lost. It is not a panacea, and is not being recommended as such. It is a tool capable of compensating for a certain amount of stuipidity on the part of the would-be adventurer so that if they do make an error or two in judgement, they will at least have one more very simple method of correcting the error on their own.

Simply put, you are not going to have any significant measure of success beyond what we already experience trying to convince regular folk that proper orienteering skills and abilities are necessary for their survival. The effort required to affect that sort of change is disproportionate to the desired outcome. You stand a far greater chance of advocating that regular folks at least equip themselves with something readily available, reasonably economical, and fairly reliable, that they will be able to more or less intuitively operate with a modicum of learning.

Doug's recommendation of carrying a GPS is germaine, practical, and likely to do far more good than harm, not that he needs my endorsement in any way. Will some people still have problems getting lost in the woods despite his advice? Well, I remember a quote from the movie "Cool Hand Luke" about a failure to communicate. Anyone who is living in such a social vacuum that they still don't get that the big woods can be a dangerous place despite all the publicity, will continue to be part of the "statistics".

I have a friend that can't use a map for anything but starting a fire, and I'm not even sure he use one to do that. I have tried to show him the simplest uses of a compass, and the only thing he understands is that one side of the needle points north. Ok he honestly isn't that bad but he cannot use a compass or a topo map. Give him a GPS and he does ok and can generly find his way around. He and some folks like him cannot grasp the use of the compass and map so for them the GPS is the right way to go. He is resposible enough to know his limitations and works within them.

Hate to beat a dead horse, but I guess that's never stopped me before.

I guess I'm just confused by the fact that according to you folks, people that can't find "N" on a compass will find a GPS "intuitive". Perhaps they should make a compass that looks like it has a digital LCD screen, a bunch of non-functional buttons and batteries that don't power anything.

Print instructions on the map that say "Hold digital virtual satellite compass unit. Turn your body until "N" faces up. Stop. Hold map so you can read this. Look at map. Look around. Repeat as required until something looks familiar."

By the way, if you are a typical PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. who uses a GPS like Bob the elk hunter, the GPS does not keep you unlost at all. You set a waypoint at you car and put it in your pocket. The moment you step into the woods you are LOST. You STAY lost until hours later you decide its time to go home and you take the GPS out of your pocket to find which way is back to your car.

And I'm curious what these mental midgets who can't find "N" did before you introduced them to GPS? Where they just really really lucky and accidentally find their way out every time they had gone into the woods?

I'm with Doug on this one, and primarily because I spent my entire adult life working with "the motoring public." I can tell you that the majority of those folks can not even operate all of the basic controls on their superduper all automatic cars. Let the automatic headlight dimmer go belly up, they don't have a clue how to dim the lights themself. Have a truck overturn blocking the off ramp they take to work every day they are lost, because they do not have a map of the city (Los Angeles in this example) they live and work in. Show them your Thomas Guide and they look at it as if it is written in Greek. Tell them to go north so far, then turn east, you get a blank look. So you make it simple and tell them to go "this way" (pointing) so far, then turn right; half of them will look left.

Using a map and compass to navigate is a skill that needs to be learned and practiced often, and the majority of "the public" are not going to do it, no matter what. If they don't have a map of their home city, they are not going to buy one of the area they will be in for a few hours/days/weeks. I recently had to spend $11 for the topo of the area we are currently in, primarily because I love maps, but also needed to refresh my use of map and compass, and wanted to try using the UTM feature of my GPS for the first time (I like it). John Doe Public isn't going to do this. So, if having a GPS only helps 50% of the users, I figure it is a good deal. But I suspect that the average number will be higher than that...

I'm a map & compass kind of guy (but yes, I often carry my GPS when hiking).

I'd have to agree with Doug ... GPS'es for the masses. They're more likely to do better with them. But I can't tell you why. Looking at my GPS'es (a Garmin V and a Magellan Gold) I'd be hard pressed to call either one of them intuitive for an occasional user. For any user, really. After about 25 button presses and 3 or 4 mis-steps into incorrect submenus I'd finally be able to get one to point me back to my truck (and I'm a computer geek who's pretty good with electronics!) I don't see how Joe-sixpack-lost-in-the-woods could do it. But somehow they seem to manage on occasion.

Looking at the map & compass alternative, how would Joe-sixpack with the 4th grade education fare with the basic geometry skills needed to understand bearings, intersecting lines, north-pointing needles that don't exactly point north - you have to add (or was that SUBTRACT???) some other number that varies depending on where you are. Hmmm ... random button pushes on a GPS might actually work out better for Joe. At least he'd be likely to stumble onto the screen with an arrow pointing somewhere. He might think it was pointing to his truck, when in reality it was pointing to the Burger King in Butte Montana, but at least he'd stay heading in the same direction so he'd reach civilization sooner or later.

Eugene, a GPS is unaffected by cloud cover, rain, fog, snow, etc.
It is important that new GPS users understand this. The latest GPS units are very good at "locking onto" the satellites even in heavy forest cover.

I agree that, given the choice of a map and compass and a GPS, I would opt for the GPS, however I feel very secure in the woods with a good GPS, a 7 1/2 minute topo and a good compass. Using the GPS to obtain UTM readings and transferring them to the map using a UTM grid plate, will tell you where you are at any given time within just a few yards. Forget about longitude and latitude and learn UTM.

Frankly, I don't understand how anyone could not find North with a compass. Makes me think they shouldn't stray too far from home lest they never be seen again. Clue: to the compass challenged, they point North when held parallel to the ground.

Boone

I have a GPS V also. It came with mapping software so I can reprogram the map detail stored in its limited (19meg) memory. Configuring the GPS V before a trip does a great deal to familiarize you with the areas you need to know about. When I travel the laptop comes with me so I always have an electronic alley map of the entire U.S. with me.

One thing I've noticed about some of the newer GPS units (Tom-Tom and the Garmin equivalents) for driving is that they seem to not need even a rudimentary knowledge of how the system works. You just turn it on and rely totally on the database and a big display. I emailed Garmin about an update to the GPS V (more resident memory, hi-res color display, same platform) and didn't hear anything back. I don't think there's a big market for GPS units that require thought -- the designers are going the other way. Eventually I'll update, probably to a Garmin GPSMAP 60Cx or whatever replaces it and install the biggest memory card available.

As for paper maps: They are great for limited areas, otherwise the detail sucks. I keep a road atlas in the truck, but honestly I haven't opened it in years. I have a local map of San Diego and haven't needed to use it either. Topo maps I use because neither of my GPS units does topo, but eventually that will change.

I used to have one of the cheap delorme ones which was affected by a things as simple as a shadow so I joke about it.
A decent GPS is on my list of items to get, I sold the delorme a couple years ago.

Having had several compasses go south on me, I have to say that my GPS (Garmin 12) is still up and rolling. These things are three of one and four of another.
One point for you all to consider: A map is no bloody use to you if you don't know where you are on it. Ditto the compass. If your at sea, the situation is even worse. No ETS in his or her right mind relys on any one bit of kit. A compass can be thrown out by local conditions, a GPS cain't get a lock, a knife breaks.

Deal with it.

As much I hate to admit it, Doug has a point- if you are in terminal need of a clue, you can buy one in the form of a GPS. Of course, just because the bought a (singular, one, (1)) clue, doesn't mean they can use it or that they have any others.

I'm not sure which bugs me more as an engineer- technology, or people. *Sighs*

Actually Tom, let me correct the fact for you.

The fact is, according to us folks, that people who can't find "N" on a compass probably aren't going to find a GPS "intuitive" either (read the last line of my previous post again for clarification of this fact you cited). and yes, I believe they do make a number of digital LCD screen compasses for sale these days, of varying function, all requiring batteries.

The fact is, a lot of people are just plain lazy, and won't take the time necessary to learn how to use a compass in such a way that it is going to do them much good if they get themselves into a situation where they are no longer unlost.

It is a question of semantics, but I'd say you are unlost until such time as you realize you don't know where you are anymore and which way to go to get unlost. Then you are lost. Part of the definition of being lost includes awareness. When I am hunting, even in familiar terrain, I am not constantly thinking about where I am or where the car is. However, if I should meander out to a point that is unfamiliar, and then realize I don't know where I am or which way the car is, then I am lost, until such time as I identify my location and/or where the car is via the map or the GPS. Most people will find it infintitely easier to do so with a GPS these days, given the current state of the technology.

If finding N on the compass were all there was to orienteering with it, then GPS probably would not be the big success it is today, at least in civilian applications. Most of the time I cannot see more than 100 yards in any direction for miles out where I play. That'd pretty much defeat your instructions on map and compass use. Conversely, I can depress the power on button on the GPS, wait 30 seconds, and see the flashing "O" where the car is, the flashing arrow where I am, and figure out which way and how far I gotta go in about 10 seconds or less.
That's why the first thing I grab when I want to navigate is the GPS instead of the map and compass, despite being proficient with both. Convenience is a human desire.

Finally, I am reasonably sure, based on my experiences, that there are quite a few out there who did go out into the big woods without any navigation aids, wandered around for a while, then found their own way back home without any other help. I did it a lot when I was a kid, so did a good number of my friends, and we never missed dinner.

I agree with Doug Ritter's Blog about carrying a GPS rather than a map and compass, especially for US citizens. There really are not many people that can use a map and compass successfully to find there location and navigate their way out of the wilderness.
I remember a few years back when I was a teenager back in Scotland comparing a US army field manual to the UK army cadet manual and comparing navigational techniques and I was surprised to say the least on just how poor the navigational techniques were described in the US army field manual. In the US manual there was no mention of magnetic deviation between the magnetic north and the grid or true north. Precision navigation on a bearing would of course be impossible without taking into account this deviation.
Also in the US manual there was no mention of how to perform a 3 point re-section to establish ones position accurately . Pretty basic stuff. How can you navigate to a point, on a magnetic bearing without compensation to the map grid, without knowing where you are in the first place.
As a 14 year old cadet we were trained to use a map, compass and pacer beads and we were tested on our skills of navigation. We were blindfolded, put in the back of 3-tonne truck and driven off into the wilderness somewhere then told to make our way back to camp. Once these skills was perfected we were then trained in the art of night navigation orientation skills using predictor corrector methods.
These skills are very useful for navigation over the Scottish Mountains which are always subjected to low cloud and misty conditions where points of reference are difficult to obtain and distances difficult to judge.
Anyway getting back to Doug's point about the use of the GPS. Doug is perfectly right in his assertion. A GPS will allow the user to accurately and speedily find their position to within 10m over most of the earths surface. The GPS is a wonderful navigational tool especially for those who have not been trained in the proper use of a map and compass and is an incredibly powerful tool in combination with a Iridium satellite phone for the extraction out of the wilderness by the rescue services. Lets of course remember there is no shame in carrying one of these devices because lets face it the US army would quickly get lost without them.

In the last year or two I've seen an amazing number of people uisng automotive GPS's. Business associates, folks with rental cars w/ GPS's onboard, mothers of Scouts in my son's troop.

Take the mother of the Scout for example. I've bet money that she wouldn't have a clue how to use a map & compass, but during a trip a few weeks ago, not only was she using her auto-style GPS to follow the route, but she was also using it to find gas stations and places to eat for the group.

Just to test this I just went outside with my 10 year old daughter who has never touched a GPS in her life, though I did recently explain how the GPS uses the satellites to find your location:

While outside on our driveway I handed her my Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx and asked her to find out how to get to Mville (a nearby good-sized city). She was able to figure out how to turn it on, though it took a while since the power button isn't the most prominent. The "Aquiring Satellites" display confused her a bit, but she correctly figured she should wait until that display disappeared. She correctly guessed that she should use the Find button. She correctly guessed to select Cities and then press the Enter button. She had to scroll down a ways until she found Mville, but she eventually found it and pressed Enter again to select it. She stumbled a bit on selecting the Goto option, though she eventually found it and selected it by pressing the Enter key. And finally she understood the next two options "Follow Road" or "Off Road", but wasn't sure which one she should pick. She finally picked "Follow Road" saying she could always walk along-side the roads anyway.

So, even a 5th grader with no prior exerience can find their way using what might be considered the most advanced mapping GPS available today.

Some of those entries sound just like the GPS V -- excellent. The learning curve should be very short when I upgrade

I agree.

Just got back from a hiking trip and mainly kept my Garmin Rino off except to "bookmark" reference points to use to figure out where I was along the trail.

Mostly used my compass and map moving along a bearing though the GPS saved time in figuring out where I was(quickly triangulating my position is a skill I've not mastered yet).

In reality how often do we really have use navigation skills in our daily lives? I don't. I drive the same way to and from work and rarely venture out of my geographical area during my daily life.

I'm a navigation novice but still know more than most of my coworkers and friends.

Given the general public's unfamiliarity with navigation in general a GPS would be a little less difficult to learn than a map and compass especially by the video-game-generation .

Redundancy (having a backup for your backup) is common theme in many of the posts on this group so ideally carrying compass, map, AND GPS would make sense.

But if forced to chose one over the other to recommend to somebody on the street, I'd recommend a GPS unit.

The US Army has a separate manual on navigation by compass and map. 'Bout 3/4" thick, one of the most boring things you will ever read. It goes into just about everything, but in my opinion the army way makes everything more complicated. Easier to learn from a Boy Scout Handbook...

Sounds like a killer piece of hardware, and something that the IMing, video game playing generation can easily relate to. Developing sufficient orienteering skills to duplicate what that GPS did in the hands of your daughter, requires alot more patience, energy, and time.

Yeah. My son's Boy Scout troop has a bunch of boys that "think" they know how to use a compass. Several times I've offered the leaders to teach them how to navigate with a map & compass, but they just don't seem all that interested.

Ken K.

When you really think about it, todays young people have been training most of their lives to use a GPS. They have been working with menues in their cell phones, I-pods, blackberries, you name its........ If you can page through the menues, you can figure out where you are and which direction to go.

A map & compass does not have an electronic menue tree to lead you to the right direction. You have to have a bit of training for it. If you didn't get it in the scouts, more than likely you just didn't get it.

Sorry for getting onto this thread late - been out lost with my map and compass (kidding...)

I bought a Garmin GPS 60CSx a few months ago and added it to my essentials list that very day. Here's the primary reason why: I go into the woods with my family. While I have the standard military map/compass training and feel pretty confident that with them I could get back to the ski lodge, I am CERTAIN that my wife could not(despite my trying to teach her numerous times). On the other hand, I know (because I tried) that my wife can figure out the GPS. Moreover, I don't completely trust anyone's navigating skills unless they have had extensive real world experience and that's pretty hard to come by in the non-military world. That makes me question my brother's ability to navagate in an emergency despite his book knowledge and national-parks-trail-only navagating experience. So unless my wife, brother, and people like them are forbidden from venturing into the woods unless accompanied by experienced companions AND those companions are forbidden from ever being incapacitated, I think Doug's reasoning is valid and not only directed at fools (which my wife and brother are far from being).

One last thought: even with lots of outdoor experience and instruction, I can still get temporarily confused outdoors with a map and compass. I hate that. I NEVER get confused as to my location when I am using the GPS, map and compass as a trio. In fact, there is a lot of extremely valuable information that the GPS provides that most maps lack. My GPS can tell me if that generic building on the map is an abandoned barn, a Denny's, or a medical office building, and I think that information could be useful in a survival situation.

If anyone is wondering about the hype regarding the accuracy and fix finding ability of the GPS 60CSx, mine has obtained good fixes from an almost windowless room in my basement. I have yet to have a problem getting a fix outdoors no matter what the terrain, foliage, or weather.