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#87220 - 03/03/07 05:22 AM GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!!
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1853
Loc: MINNESOTA
i bought that skin glue from heathy pets several years ago
and take it on..what else..canoe trips..it comes in a small
squeeze bottle with a pack of very fine and long tips that
are to be replaced with each use..it has a blue tint so you
can see it against the skin..i have a fishing buddy who is a
RN at the hospital i retired from last year..i was an medical
administrator..he took a look at it and said it was the same stuff
they used in the ER just a different package..the best use
would be a cut that was too big for a band-aid and not bad enought to call for gauze pads and wraps..there is a detailed
instruction sheet from heathy pets on it's use..just think
"finger" and not "paw pads"..there is a difference in the
chemical make up of skin glue and super glue..Google that
for lots of details..i did before i bought the skin glue
rather than take the advice of some other outdoor types who
advised that super glue was the same thing..it's not..
i just dug the bottle out of my first aid kit..
it's 3M Vetbond..i keep it and the spare tips in a
waterproof pill bottle....never had to use it so far---


Edited by CANOEDOGS (03/03/07 05:24 AM)

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#87222 - 03/03/07 05:46 AM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! [Re: CANOEDOGS]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
I have read several places that gluing wounds closed is dependent on the wound really being cleaned inside first. If you glue "dirt" inside you are setting yourself up for infection...
_________________________
OBG

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#87224 - 03/03/07 06:12 AM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! [Re: OldBaldGuy]
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1853
Loc: MINNESOTA

OBG.. all the normal first aid rules apply..i always swab
down any wound with a povidone-iodine prep pad..i think
they are sold as "betadine" ??? spelling--pads
they work much better than alcohol pads as they "skin over"
the cut..

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#87230 - 03/03/07 03:22 PM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! [Re: CANOEDOGS]
billym Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 616
Loc: Oakland, California
Originally Posted By: CANOEDOGS

OBG.. all the normal first aid rules apply..i always swab
down any wound with a povidone-iodine prep pad..i think
they are sold as "betadine" ??? spelling--pads
they work much better than alcohol pads as they "skin over"
the cut..


Do not use povidone iodine directly in the wound; it burns the tissue and prevents healing. PI or Betadine need to be diluted tenfold before it should be use this way. The wipes are for cleaning around a wound on healty skin.

If you are closing wounds with Derma or Vetbond you should irrigate the wound with a highly diluted PI solution to clean it.


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#87233 - 03/03/07 03:29 PM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! [Re: CANOEDOGS]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
I was thinking a lacerations a little deeper, so we may be talking apples and oranges here. If those deeper ones are not flushed, and flushed a lot, the possibility of sealing some nasty stuff inside seems very possible/probable. When I read that the military starting gluing wounds closed several years ago, my understanding was that they might use glue on a field/combat injury, to rapidly close a wound, with the understanding that it would have to be debrided by a surgeon at a later date.

For the usual minor scrapes and owies I do use Skin Shield a lot, I seem to heal faster with that that a bandaid...
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OBG

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#87237 - 03/03/07 04:04 PM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! ??? FOR BILLYM [Re: billym]
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1853
Loc: MINNESOTA

BILLYM..
the pads i use say..1% available iodine..i assume that
diluted enought??..like i said,i have used these with very
good results for many years..they don't sting like the
alcohol pads i was using and the "skin over" effect seems to
seal up small wounds..never had any healing problems..but??



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#87244 - 03/03/07 04:57 PM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! ??? FOR BILLYM [Re: CANOEDOGS]
billym Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 616
Loc: Oakland, California
1% can be used but is still hard on the healing tissue.
Rubbing the pad into the wound may also irritate the tissue as well.
Get an irrigation syringe.

see this medical article that talks about the subject.
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1524-4725.2002.01161.x/abs/

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#87246 - 03/03/07 06:32 PM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! ??? FOR BILLYM [Re: billym]
JIM Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 1032
Loc: The Netherlands
I use betadine-solution with 100mg/ml povidone-iodine. According to the instructions and my personal experience it can be used directly on the wound.


Edited by JIM (03/03/07 06:32 PM)
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#87257 - 03/03/07 10:46 PM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! ??? FOR BILLYM [Re: JIM]
billym Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 616
Loc: Oakland, California
Jim,
Follow the above link. This is a clinical study that shows even the lowest concentrations of PI inhibit cell regrowth.

Sure we have all used it on wounds before,myself included but medicine is a "practice" and ever changing. CPR has even changed recently. New studies do not recommend using PI in any concentration directly in an open wound.

There is some antiseptic benefit to putin PI directly in a wound but that does not mean you have damaged the tissue and inhibited healing.

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#87260 - 03/03/07 11:31 PM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! ??? FOR BILLYM [Re: billym]
Seeker890 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/19/06
Posts: 93
Loc: Central Ohio
Clinical studies are great in the clinic, but how about us out on the trail? Betadine packs are easy to carry and do disinfect. I guess the question should be what is the best replacement? If you are way out in the woods, I would rather use Betadine when I know it will prevent infection before I glue a wound together, than take a chance on someother method. (I hate to use alcohol on a open wound also). If it takes a few days longer to heal, so what, as long as you have kept infection away. I think most of us have used Betadine on wounds, and they all eventually healed. I can't say that I have ever noticed a significant time delay on wound healing with or without Betadine. It may be better to not use it, but I don't think it is necessarily wrong to use it either.
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The Seeker

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#87269 - 03/04/07 01:31 AM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! ??? FOR BILLYM [Re: Seeker890]
billym Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 616
Loc: Oakland, California
The question you need to really ask is whether or not to close the wound at all. If you are willing to use iodine in a wound because it is dirty then you should not close the wound to begin with.

Hell my Dad used to dump hydorgen peroxide in my wounds; don't mean it is the right thing to do these days.

The best replacement is benzalkonium chloride.


Edited by billym (03/04/07 04:24 AM)

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#87272 - 03/04/07 01:40 AM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! ??? FOR BILLYM [Re: billym]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...dump hydorgen peroxide in my wounds..."

I do that on myself from time to time, usually with a dirty abrasion. Looks really cool when it starts foaming and bubbling...
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OBG

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#87278 - 03/04/07 03:21 AM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! ??? FOR BILLYM [Re: OldBaldGuy]
billym Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 616
Loc: Oakland, California
Yes I always kinda liked the bubbles. It looked like something was happening. smile

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#87281 - 03/04/07 04:27 AM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! ??? FOR BILLYM [Re: billym]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
Yeah, it looks like it is eating your flesh like acid. So cool...
_________________________
OBG

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#87285 - 03/04/07 05:22 AM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! ??? FOR BILLYM [Re: billym]
SARbound Offline
Addict

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 503
Loc: Quebec City, Canada
Originally Posted By: billym


The best replacement is benzalkonium chloride.


+1 on this. Easily available in small tearable packets. Iodine causes damage to tissue, and so does alcohol. Alcohol is used to disinfect instruments, and iodine is used to disinfect uninjured skin.
_________________________
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"The only easy day was yesterday."

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#87295 - 03/04/07 07:42 AM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! ??? FOR BILLYM [Re: SARbound]
Flotsam Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 35
Loc: Connecticut
Even BZK isn't really good for cleaning a wound. The best treatment is copious irrigation (after you've picked out all of the obvious debris) - potable water works fine. Some wilderness medical types advocate adding a little povidone-iodine to the water to make a "weak tea" colored solution. I've used the diluted betadine in the ED (before I was aware of some the studies against it), and the wounds turned out ok (they were all irrigated w/ plain sterile saline prior to closure, however).

Closing a wound in the woods w/ either sutures or glue, is generally a bad idea - the risk of infection is typically greater with a closed, contaminated wound, than just having an open wound.

The medical grade superglue (Dermabond)is n-octylcyanoacrylate, and for other than superficial, small, very clean-edged wounds under little tension, doesn't tend to work as great as you would think.

All of the little swabs/towelettes/etc... are meant to be used on relatively intact skin - fine for a small abrasion, but not for deeper wounds.

And although many of us (including myself) have used such things successfully in the past, this is, more often than not, an example of our body healing not because of something we've done, but in spite of it. The body is very resilient, and even the biggest wounds can heal with proper hygiene & time. I've sent patients home w/ wounds big enough to put your hand in, and they've healed just fine, however, prematurely closed wounds can and have led to systemic sepsis.

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#87313 - 03/04/07 04:41 PM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! ??? FOR BILLYM [Re: Flotsam]
billym Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 616
Loc: Oakland, California
Originally Posted By: Flotsam
Even BZK isn't really good for cleaning a wound. The best treatment is copious irrigation (after you've picked out all of the obvious debris) - potable water works fine. Some wilderness medical types advocate adding a little povidone-iodine to the water to make a "weak tea" colored solution. I've used the diluted betadine in the ED (before I was aware of some the studies against it), and the wounds turned out ok (they were all irrigated w/ plain sterile saline prior to closure, however).

Closing a wound in the woods w/ either sutures or glue, is generally a bad idea - the risk of infection is typically greater with a closed, contaminated wound, than just having an open wound.

The medical grade superglue (Dermabond)is n-octylcyanoacrylate, and for other than superficial, small, very clean-edged wounds under little tension, doesn't tend to work as great as you would think.

All of the little swabs/towelettes/etc... are meant to be used on relatively intact skin - fine for a small abrasion, but not for deeper wounds.

And although many of us (including myself) have used such things successfully in the past, this is, more often than not, an example of our body healing not because of something we've done, but in spite of it. The body is very resilient, and even the biggest wounds can heal with proper hygiene & time. I've sent patients home w/ wounds big enough to put your hand in, and they've healed just fine, however, prematurely closed wounds can and have led to systemic sepsis.



Thanks Flotsam for the expert advice.

Bill

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#87318 - 03/04/07 05:40 PM Re: GLUE THOSE BODY PARTS!!! ??? FOR FLOTSAM [Re: Flotsam]
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1853
Loc: MINNESOTA

FLOTSAM..
as all my first aid is directed too what might happen on
wilderness canoe trips and not survival situtions i never
thought i would need to really "close" a wound..just do
something that would keep me from bleeding untill the cut
healed up on it's own in a few hours..some body parts like
hands,fingers,feet..get lots of use and you can't just pull
over and camp while a minor cut clots up..if a bandaid keeps
soaking thru i would assume that it has "bled clean" and
could be glued closed..like i said i never had to use the
VetBond but i have wraped Transpore tape over minor cuts
untill they healed up enought for a band aid..
many years ago i went really overboard and took a kit
that you could do minor surgery with..staple kit..gloves..
several sizes of gauze pad..iodine scrubers---you get the idea.
one day i looked at all that stuff because it was quite a
pile to carry and it hit me--if i was injured so badly that
i needed that gear i was in BIG trouble and more than likly
unable to use it..my best bet was to patch myself up and
paddle to the nearest ranger station , fishermans fly-in
camp or signal for help....this is sort of running on..
the real question was..for larger wounds on limbs i have
seen advise that a pile of gauze pads wound up with an Ace
bandage will staunch bleeding without having to resort to
stiching,butterfly bandages..so on..and is faster and easy
to use..

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