All of the SUVs you listed have got to be feeling pretty small once you start cramming two adults, their stuff, a 50 lb. dog, his/her stuff, and associated survival kits, food, water, etc.

Ditto here on avoiding anything AWD -- that just brings premature wear and tear. I would stick with a 2WD vehicle or one with real 4WD.

I get 20mpg highway and spent a lot less on my 4WD truck than I could have spent on some fancy SUV with GPS navigation, wood trim, heated leather seats, et al.

In the end it's all about what works for you and lots of test drives!

I would take a look at the Jeep Grand Cherokee with the Quadradrive AWD system. It is a good compromise between a very sturdy and capable off road vehicle, and has quite nimble on-road handling.

The AWD system is transparent in normal use, and can really apply serious power to whatever wheels need it, all four of them. It can also be switched into a low mode where the front and rears are locked together and the gear ratio is significantly reduced (low range).

As another poster has mentioned, AWD and 4WD systems are not created equal. Not even close. The variance in performance applies equally to AWD and 4WD systems. In general, AWD and 4WD can mean as little as being able to drive one front and one rear. So it can mean the ability to drive 2, 3 or 4 wheels. Then, once you have some capability to drive the different combinations of wheels, you have to factor in how well it can do it. Many systems can only supply a limited amount of torque to the alternate wheel(s). And then you have different methods of operation and qualities of implementations. AWD systems are not created equal. 4WD systems are not created equal.

The JGC is probably smaller than you think it is, and on trips with just my wife and our two (large) dogs, it is packed to the gills. I consider it "right-sized". :-)

Personally, I find both the current model (WK) and the previous model (WJ) good options (although when buying a used WJ you need to be careful that the QD system is in good repair). Both are available with the Quadradrive system, although QD in the WK is electric where on the WJ was hydraulic. Each has their trade offs, but both are good. The WJ has solid front and rear axles, the WK has IFS with a solid rear.

The only real downside given your comments is that of gas mileage. Personally, I think people place more emphasis on this than is warranted in the big picture.

I'd suggest getting a package with tow hooks, skid plates and the towing IV package. People balk at these things, but they only cost the same as many people pay for a sunroof or upgraded stereo package.

The tow hooks make it easy to pull someone out of a ditch, or have someone pull you out of a ditch. Consider that there are no good places to pull if you don't have them. Many car have been damaged pulling on parts that were not intended to be pulled on, and you might even end up with a broke off part and still be stuck (and possibly broken down).

The towing IV package can be used as a tow point (to pull or be pulled), or as a place to mount an accessory or bike rack. The after market towing kits are not nearly as seamless as just getting it in the first place.

It is very easy to get stuck. Slide in a ditch, try to cross something that you get hung up on, etc. Skid plates are cheap insurance. They won't stop you from getting stuck, but they significantly decrease the chance that something will get broken in the process of getting stuck, or getting pulled out/off. What you want is to get unstuck and drive away, not get unstuck and then still be stranded because something broke.

Seriously think about SUVs that don't have these options. If I can't hook a tow strap and get pulled out (and it sounds like the tie downs used for shipping are not up to the task), what does that say about the construction and intended use? Ditto skid plates?

wkjeeps.com: All about the WK
wjjeeps.com: All about the WJ
Jeepwarehouse.com: Killer prices on Jeeps

As suggested, the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited would also work well and is an even better off road vehicle. The unlimited is a longer Wrangler with four doors and the Rubicon package adds a very serious off road 4x4 drive system, fairly large and fairly aggressive tires. The downside is that it is less on road friendly.

Also as suggested, you also want decent tires. Tires are critical to the performance of your vehicle, regardless of which one you have. And rarely do manufactures put decent tires on their vehicles.

Personally, I like the Bridgestone Revo AT which is also a great compromise between on road performance, and is reasonable for mild off road use. I'd get them in the largest size offered stock on the vehicle you get. Make sure you have the computer adjusted to whatever tire size you select.

Bridgestone Revo AT at tirerack.com

Many tire stores will allow you to trade in new tires against replacements. When we purchased our SUV, I picked out the tires I wanted, ordered them from a tire place, then when we drove the vehicle off the lot, we went directly to the tire place where they put on the new tires and discounted the cost of the new OEM tires.

When buying your SUV, you probably want smaller rims and larger tires. For example, a 17" rim is better than an 18" rim. Both these rims can have tires with the same diameter, but you have more rubber on the 17" rim. In addition to more rubber, off road oriented tires (AT or MT) are not offered for larger rims, so the smaller rims have more off road tires available to choose from.

Again, as suggested, consider having good recovery equipment: hand winch (review), tow strap, tire chains*, etc. Nothing like being able to pull yourself out.



As others have stated, there is a fair difference between car based SUVs and more serious off road vehicles. The Wrangler clearly falls in the latter category, the vehicles you mention in the former (as does the Liberty). The Grand Cherokee straddles the two.

The various Subaru are probably decent car based SUVs, but keep in mind the limitations of the car SUV. Decent for snow and reasonable dirt roads, but don't take it off the road.

While I don't know it for a fact, but I suspect the hybrids are not going to have enough umph to get over debris in any reliable way.

I also suspect you are going to find the ones you list overly small when you try to put some gear, your husband, and the dog in it.

As you may have guessed, we have a JGC. It's a '99 WJ and has all the mechanical options and none of the luxury options. We are still very happy with it. If I were to get another vehicle, it would be another JGC w/QD, or a Wrangler w/Rubicon.

The way I feel about our JGC is like people must have felt about a trusty horse. You feel know matter what happens (roll it over? roll it back), it will get you home.


[ a few more pics ]

-john


* It should be noted that the mfg. recommends against chains on the WJ (dunno about WK). I think the problem is the rear shocks are very close to the tire and could be damaged with the chains. Lots of clearance in the front. I still have chains and will use them if needed, although very carefully. I hope to change rims to ones with different backspacing to address this in the future.

Ouch! I can get a used M113 for less than that. Sure, the gun mounts have been pulled, but turn half the back into fuel tanks, and you can go for a few days.

Basically, the hybrid Silverado was designed for contractors, becuase it can do double duty as a generator. There is an inverter and outlets wired into the electical system someplace, don't remember where.

Nifty idea, but very specialized.

Yep, I think you are right. My mistake!

N5AC is a VHF / UHF / Microwave contestor. On contest days, he loads up the truck, drives out to remote high spots and makes contacts with fixed stations. These contacts rack up contest points. He just happened to have the truck rigged up when Katrina went through.

Here's a couple of pics of the inside of his truck...

http://www.n5oom.org/2005_katrina_response/photos/wa2ivd/base_camp/DSCF3857.JPG
http://www.n5oom.org/2005_katrina_response/photos/n5oom/base_camp/DSC03691.JPG

That's basically my opinion of the hybrid. The Xterra is too small for events like this, and a regular pickup sucks too much gas. I'm hoping the hybrid reduces that even a little bit.

Yep, I understand. I'm thinking about the Silverado Hybrid for the extra mpg and for the AC generator capability. I'm hoping that it's tuned for a bit more mpg in 2-3 years when I'll really be looking.

I didn't have trouble with those gas cans, but over time intend to replace them with metal welded ones.

I should have said any SUV or crossover type will do. Low clearance is always worse than high clearance unless you are talking about roll-over. AWD without locking diffs is just two wheel drive split front and rear. Better than nothing, but.... I caution against just driving across fallen trees though, haveing bent the frame on my CJ going over a single sided rock and comming down hard. It can be done. but the possibility of getting stuck or putting a limb stub through your oil pan is alot greater. Most SUVs don't have engine skid plates. A buddy destroyed a shock running over a tree once. Very bouncy after that and hard to control.

The end result is that proper and cautious driving will avoid most of these pitfalls. I have been through enough hurricanes and never needed to off-road to get around or out of town.

Again, it depends.

I think it would be more accurate to say that AWD *may* power as little as two wheels. But then again, so may 4WD.

The Quadradrive AWD system available on the WJ and WK JGC has a differential in both axles that can vary torque up to 100% to either wheel on that axle. It also has a transfer case than can vary torque up to 100% from the front to the rear axle. This is real AWD, but can push up to 100% torque to any wheel or a combination of wheels and performs very well, even compared to a fully locked up rig. It is slip based, and so it will push torque away from slipping wheels, so you don't have the problem with many limited slips type systems where they do not send the power correctly to the wheels that need it. And then of course, you can lock the transfer case so the front and rears are locked, but then it's really a hybrid of AWD and 4WD as is your example of AWD with locking axles.

Compare this with 4WD systems where at worst, you drive one front and one rear. Then, maybe you have a locking option for the front, maybe you don't. Usually this is an option the buyer must know to purchase. Even then, your rear may or may not be open. Possibly you get a limited slip option for the rear. In rare cases these days do you get a locking option for the rear.

Bottom line, I don't feel you can't generalize with current AWD and 4WD systems. The buyer must study the AWD or 4WD system(s) available in the vehicle on an individual basis.

An aside: Of course when people refer to "2WD", the system may only power one wheel. RWD, "2WD", FWD all may refer to one or two drive wheels depending on the system.

And of course, you must compare to system to the intended use.

-john

I guess I might was well throw my two cents in, got nothing better to do right now anyway. I am not a "car" person. I don't read the specs on every vehicle on the road, and hate to turn a wrench, other than maybe an oil change. That said, I think that you should buy more for your everyday needs, and what you can afford, with the possibility of having to take it "off road," (which can be a very nasty place), running third, or maybe forth, since I doubt that very few will have to actually do that. Decent AT tires (none of those low profile things, you will ruin a rim on a small chuckhole with them), and fairly high ground clearance, in case you have to go over a curb or smallish tree limb.

A couple of years ago we needed a new vehicle, our old Nissan 2wd P/U being very tired, and we ended up with a 2004 Chevy Tracker. Four doors (to haul the grandkids from time to time), 4WD automatic with a manual transfer case, flat towable (behind our home on wheels), and decent (I guess, 27 or so highway) mpg. We normally keep the back seat folded down, have two Action Packer boxes back there for emergency stuff, and a pod on top for all of our tent camping gear. Yes, that makes it a tad more top heavy, but most of the stuff up there is actually pretty light. And we carry two sets of chains with us all the time. I will not chain up to go anywhere (yet), but want to be able to chain up to get out if necessary. Chains can come in as handy for mud as snow/ice. Also a good 12v air compressor, so we can air the tires down if necessary, then air them back up as needed. Is this the perfect "survival situation" vehicle. Probably not. But it has worked for us so far, and it is paid for...

I'd vote for Subaru Forester too. I believe, that Subaru Forester would beat all of the above mini SUV's. We had a lot of off-road situations with it in the past 5 years. Compact, powerful with its boxer (horizontally-opposed) engine, low center of gravity, very well thought out interior design for most outdoorsman (I love the abundance of hidden compartments), and very reliable mechanically. The best in class on snow and ice without any chains.