Hello All,

I have been reading this forum on and off for a year or so. It has inspired me to begin thinking about being better prepared for survival situations. There are a lot of questions that I have come up with, and I thought I would start with one regarding tire fires. I've looked for answers in this furum as well as well as the Internet and not found any good answers.

I read this forums comments on the snowbound Kim family with great interest. The Kims burned tires for signaling and possibly for heat. My questions relate starting and using a tire fire. Here are my questions:

1) How do you actually start a tire fire?
a) Can you simply light a tire holding a match to it?
b) Can you simply light a tire by holding a lighter to it?
c) Can you light a tire by sprinkling with gasoline or oil, then lighting with a flame?
d) Can you light a tire by setting the tire in a small wood fire?
e) Can you light a tire by setting the tire in a big wood fire?
f) If gasoline is needed to easily get a tire started, how much is needed? If I am running my car perodically to stay warm, I would want to make sure I save enough to light a tire, if an when I need to. This is where some other flammable substance (oil?) might be useful as a starter fluid.
2) How fast does a tire start producing significant amounts of black smoke?

I consider this important if a search plane/helicopter is flying by. It is only going to be in my area a relatively short time I assume. So will it do any good to try to light a tire fire as a signal AFTER I have seen/heard a search plane in the area? If it is going to take 15-20min to get some decent smoke, then I would think I would be better off trying some other type of quick signalling.

3) How long will a tire burn?

Tires are a very limited resource. I only have 5 available (4 wheels, 1 spare). I want to use this precious resource properly. If a tire wil completely burn in an hour, then I may use one only during good conditions or if I think it is likely somebody is around to see it. The very last tire, I might hold on to it like gold (or maybe food is a better analogy). Only use it if I actually see somebody. On the other hand, if they last for 8hrs, then I may be more willing to use them. Either sooner or under less ideal conditions. Again, I am thinking of these as signaling devices, rather than as heat sources.

4) Once lit, is it possible to put a tire out?

If a tire fire will last for 8hrs, then I might want to light one to try to signal a plane I see in the distance. But if nobdy bites in an hour, could I put the tire out to use again another time?

a) One method might be to dig a shallow hole, put tire in the hole, light the tire. To put it out, shovel dirt back on the tire.

5) How toxic is tire smoke?

While I would probably trade dieing from cancer in 10 years over dieing from the elements in a few days, I can certainly minimize my risks. Also, I don't want to die from tire fumes in 10min when I might be rescued in a few days.

a) Like any smoke, I would want to stay out of the plume from the fire, but should I be extra careful with tire smoke?
b) Would putting a wet bandana over my face help, or are the toxic fumes in tire smoke going to go right through that?
c) If a tire fire lasts many hours, then I might be tempted to dry to direct some of that heat to a shelter (car, tent, snow cave, etc.) Would this be a bad idea because the tire smoke might become more concentrated?

6) If you were stranded in the Kim's situation, how often would you burn a tire. This is assuming you don't need the tire for heat.

a) Would you burn all the tires at once to try to get a bigger more noticable smoke plume?
b) Would you burn one every day until gone?
c) Would you burn all tires except one? The last tire to save until the very last or most important?

7) Is there anything I could do to enhance the smoke produced by a tire fire?

a) Would putting wet wood on a tire fire produce more smoke or simply dilute/mask the tire smoke?
b) Would putting motor oil on the tire fire produce more smoke or would it burn so fast that it wouldn't really help?
c) Would anything else help? Plastic panels from the car, carpet from the car, transmission fluid, something else?

I look forward to your knowledge answers on this subject as well as all the associated discussions, topics, information, that your answers always seem to generate.

If I was going to burn a tire for a signal (and that is a BIG if), first I would remove the air pressure. Then I would light it with a road flare (fusee). I don't know how toxic the smoke is, but I would avoid breathing it in. Most everything in a car burns dirty and black (oil, hoses, belts, seats, etc.). But you are burning up resources that you might need later.

Tires arent easy to light, and require an accelerant. It is burning rubber; not good to inhale. Once they get going, they burn bright & hot.

All of the tire fires that I have seen, the tires were still attached to the vehicles, and they were blazing away as well. Before I started burning tires, I might experiment with adding some motor oil (from the spare stock) to a fire, to see how much smoke was produced. I'm not certain that this is something that I want to practice. If I need assistance, and am outside of cell coverage, I will try ham radio next. Is there anywhere in the CONUS that a 25-watt 2-meter rig and a decent antenna cannot find a repeater?

You must be from the city... <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yes, there is a LOT of the U.S. that isn't covered by repeaters. Just here in Oregon there are large expanses where you cannot hit a 2m repeater. Keep in mind that even if you are within the range of a repeater, intervening obstacles (hills, mountains) can make it impossible to reach. VHF is "line of sight" (LOS).

If you have 440mhz capability, you increase the number of available repeaters by something like 75%, but there are still lots of places you can't hit one - and it too is LOS.

If you can get to a commanding hilltop, you increase the chances of hitting a distant repeater dramatically. Of course, if all you have is a mobile rig this may not be possible. Even with a portable, it may not be feasible.

Is there a way to get coverage of every square yard of an area? Actually, there is - if you get your General license for access to the HF bands, and study up on NVIS theory and practice, you can literally cover everything within (roughly) a 500km radius.

When I'm out in the woods, I take along an HF mobile rig and/or a portable HF transceiver for just this reason.

-=[ Grant ]=-

on one of the 'survivor' shows - les stroud, i think - lit a tire fire.

the tire was off the car (why start a your car on fire too?) - and off the rim.

he laid the tire flat and placed flammable material - cloth? - inside the tire.

he then siphoned gas from the car using a tube he scrounged from the car and put the gas on the cloth and inside the tire.

got a spark and the thing lit.

there was not a lot of explanation, but it was apparent what he was doing.

no mention of tire burn life or restarting.

and i wouldn't breathe it.

Hi Wolfepack,
I all tire fires that I have seen (don’t ask me why have seen so many) the tires were removed from the rims and sprayed with gasoline.
If you do not add an accelerant it would be very difficult to light the tire. Unless you just dump one in an actual fire, as you have previously suggested.
It will produce black fumes and a bright and hot flame almost immediately.
The burning time is fairly long, probably from 2 to 3 hours depending on the tire size, and it is very, very, very (have I stressed this enough) difficult to put out. When I was in college, during a Industrial Safety class I used the full content of a 25lbs ABC extinguisher and could not put a tire completely off.
Hope this helps

how would one get a tire off the rim using just tools that would be in the car? getting the tire off the rim seems like it wouldn't be that easy. if you had a knife, you could cut it off...but if you didn't, then what?

I think that getting a tire off a rim without a couple of old fashioned tire irons (how many of you have ever seen one, let alone used one???) and a maul would be sooo hard it would not be worth the effort. And cutting one off would be difficult, dangerous, and really dull your knife. I would suggest just letting the air out (air expands with heat you know), then light the sucker off. Assuming that you get rescued, new wheels are cheap...

Welcome!

This site has some info re: tire fire toxins and extinguishing methods: http://www.epa.gov/garbage/tires/fires.htm

Step one: Deflate it

Step two: use a prybar or tire iron to slip between the wheel portion and the tire portion where they connect on the beaded rim to separate them. Once you have it offset push the prybar through enough that it's probably sticking in the inside by about 2 inches or so. Then rotate the tire pop the tire off the rim.

That's how I would do it at least.

understanding we're in dire straits here - the problem of getting the tire off the rim is an issue.

well, garland, i agree with you that the tire iron or jack handle is the way to go. a few drops of motor oil - using the dipstick - on the bead might help to slip the bead past the rim.

if that doesn't work, next step would be to break the bead.

using my leatherman wave's blade i would cut my way down to the bead.

the leatherman tool's file has a 'file' surface on three sides. i would attempt to file through the bead - perhaps using a bit more of the motor oil to ease the way.

if that doesn't work - how many would actually practice this? - i would try to pry each strand of the steel cable bead apart and cut each one with the wire cutters.

if that didn't work i'd sit down and cry - just before starting a large wood fire ! lol !

Just curious, but why would one even bother removing the tire from the rim before burning it?

on the rim, i think you need to have a lot of air and an accelerant for the rubber to burn. off the rim provides air access to the rubber. and the inside of the tire provides a place to put an accelerant.

now, if you had a large fire going already, and had a deflated tire, tossing it on top of the fire might be enough to get it to burn.

but i would still try to place the tire on top of something on the fire - in other words, i think you'd want to set it afire - like a barbeque.

in that case - on the rim - i think you'd need to heat as much of the surface area as possible to get it burning.

I already knew I didn't want to breath the smoke, and kinda figured this..."Waste tires are difficult to ignite..."

That is kindasorta how it is done, but most cars now days don't have anything remotely resembling a tire iron. The jack handles of most cars is just a sheet metal gizmo to crank up a screw jack. And the "rotate the tire pop the tire off the rim" part is much harder than it sounds. And you have to do it twice. A large hammer is required, plus a lot of sweat. I still go with delflating and burning on the rim...

Hi All,

Thanks for the large number of replies recieved in only 24 hrs! I had not thought I would get replies so quickly. This is why this is such a great forum.

I had not even thought about the problems of getting a tire off of the rim. In my mind I pictured removing the tire/rim from the car, then when I lit the tire, it was magically off the rim. I will have to think more about some additions to my kit in the car. If I am with somebody else, then I'll have to think even more about how to accomplish removing the tire from the rim. I've removed plenty of bicycle tires, so I think I know the process, but I imagine a tire rim would be FAR more difficult then a bicycle tire.

A little more info: Tire rubber has a heating value of 15,000 BTU's per pound, which is similar to petroleum. A tire needs to reach just over 1000 degrees F to ignite. A candle flame is about 1400 degrees F and a blowtorch is about 2370 degrees F.... I'd tell you more, but i'm tired.

Sorry for the bad pun.

A few more thoughts:

Everyone is telling you to deflate the tire, but not mentioning why: without deflating, they EXPLODE! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You can get the tires off the rims with two very large screwdrivers and some sweat. By large screwdrivers, I mean those really handy 18" suckers. I've done it, but I broke some fingernails in the process.

I wouldn't bother removing the tires, myself. I would build a good fire, try to find a largish rock and set it right beside the fire (or build the fire next to a rock), and tilt the tire over it at an angle, to reduce the chance of smothering the fire.

If I'm in a survival situation, I'm not going to play with gasoline. I prefer to reduce my chances of becoming a human torch without some intelligent assistance nearby. (Besides, that's a Guy Thing <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)

Once the tire is burning, stand upwind.

Burning a tire as a signal in the wrong weather is a waste of time and the tire. If you're trying to produce a smoke signal, it won't work on low-pressure days. Low pressure means clouds or rain. The smoke will just sit on the ground and meander around there, and hide under the trees. It won't be very visible from the air, or from any distance.

Smoke signals only work on high-pressure days: clear & sunny.

The best way (IMHO) to make a fast smoke signal is to carry several containers of motor oil with you, and have it ready several feet from your existing fire. When you see a search aircraft (not a jet 6 miles high), pour it onto your fire.

Nearly every kind of plastic burns with a black smoke. You've seen those news fires where black smoke is pouring out of a house? Polyester (plastic) carpet, plastic and plastic-coated furniture, plastic-coated paneling, plastic countertops, etc, all burn black. So your carpeting, and carpet mats & headliner (polyester and thin plastic foam) would all burn black.

Wood, green plant material/leaves and transmission fluid (& maybe antifreeze/coolant) burns with a white smoke. Water poured onto a fire produces white steam and smoke.

I don't know what kind of stuffing modern cars have (I don't have a modern car <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />); if they are polyester, like stuffed toy stuffing, it will burn black. If it's old-fashioned mattress stuffing, it will burn white.

The color of the smoke you produce is most important for its contrast to your surroundings if you have choices. If you need speed, do your best with what you've got. Just don't smother the fire with too much of anything in your excitement.

The best way to heat a small shelter with your fire is probably to have a regular fire with a rock or log reflector behind it in front of your shelter. Or, you could heat some rocks (NOT from a riverbed) and when they're hot, maneuver them into holes you've dug in the floor of your shelter, and cover it with dry sand or dirt. I'm sure wet soil would produce steam, which wouldn't work and would just make you wet, then cold.

"If you were stranded in the Kim's situation, how often would you burn a tire."

Also IMO, every time they burned a tire as a signal, it was a waste of time. Kati Kim said herself that the smoke wouldn't rise, it just spread around on the ground. Low pressure.

Note: nearly every time anyone in the air sees 3 fires in a triangle (try for about 75' apart in an open area) at night or 3 smokes during the day, they're going to report it, even if they don't know anyone is missing. Those are international distress signals. But if you've only got fuel for one fire, do it.

Inserting a question here: magnesium+firestarters= fire. Mag wheels plus fire.... ? Do they burn, or do they require such high heat that they just sit there?

Sue (aka 'Pyro')

"...Mag wheels plus fire.... ? Do they burn, or do they require such high heat that they just sit there?..."

Good question. I have seen vehicle fires were mag engines burned for hours. I don't recall ever seeing mag rims do that, but then I also don't remember what I had for breakfast today. Maybe we have some fireguys that can give us an answer...

Good question Susan, unfortunately according to our friends at Wikipedia, they don't burn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mag_wheels

I bet if you get them hot enough, they will burn. Just not "campfire hot", but REALLY hot. Sounds like a homework assignment for BLAST!

There is a bloke over here named Les Hiddens ( The Bush Tucker Man ). In one of his TV series he lit a fire as a signalling device, then did an aerial shot of the smoke. It was quite useless and hard to see. He suggested a signal mirror which he used and also showed an aerial shot, it was very effective. He did these experiments in the desert of Australia though, dont know about the results in the snow.

Most things are hard to see from a search aircraft. As you say the flash is the best. The way I have always heard the tyre burning thing referred to has been as a smoke signal to be seen from the ground. In the more remote regions of Austalia a smoke signal from a tyre is the best way to be spotted by someone on the ground. The best times to burn is at dawn or just before dusk. This is when Cockies (farmers/station owners) come out to look at their property. If they see any smoke at all you will have a visitor real soon!

I have heard it recommended that you should burn the tubes first and then the tyres after all the tubes are gone, that will give you five days of fires. Over here in the outback tubes are not uncommon because punctures are very common.

However the best way to stay found over here is to get a HT radio and join the VKS network. If you have trouble just radio and help will be on the way.

Been there, done that. It's VERY hard to get a mag wheel to start burning. The alloy used is ~95% magnesium so it will burn if you can ignite it. The problem was getting it hot enough. Magnesium is a good conductor of heat so the heat from any "point source" such as a propane torch and road flare was dissapated throughout the rest of the rim and so it never reached ignition temperature. Wood and rubber don't burn hot enough unless you have a BIG fire with a good wind blowing on it. A large amount of charcoal might do it, again if you have wind blowing on it (think a forge). Basically, anything most people carry in their car won't do the job.

A pound of thermite works though.
<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-Blast

Blast is correct, not that anyone would doubt that considering his area of expertise <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, if you could somehow turn that entire wheel into shavings, you'd have one heckuva signal flare...

"...if you could somehow turn that entire wheel into shavings..."

You could stay warm, using a file on that rim. And if you got a pile of aluminum shavings from a wheel, and had a rusty old hulk nearby you could file on...I'd better not go there...

As far as trying to take the tire off the rim, I just wouldn't. They are VERY difficult to do with a couple of prybars on a steel rim. On some of the alloys, because of the way the bead locks in, you're not doing it without the hydraulic bead breakers the tire shops use. However, cutting the sidewalls of even the best multi-plies is pretty easy. I would cut out a hole/strip big enough to pack in the wood or whatever flammable material you're using to light it up. I once cut out a couple of makeshift shoe soles in about 5 minutes just to see if I could. (cut out some soles, poke holes, add para cord and you've made sandals). A tip - angle the blade sideways when cutting the sidewall (or any heavy material for that matter), it lets the cut rubber offset so it's not just pinching the blade. Mucho easier!

As far as the alloy rims burning. I recall that in the earlier days of the new magnesium rims, there were some spectacular fires that couldn't be put out in some car races. "Magnesium" rims are not magnesium anymore because of that (and also because they would get micro fractures and cause the wheel to fail), they are aluminum alloys. Filing away to get some firestarting dust will just waste your time trying to light up aluminum dust.

Magnesium engine block fire + water
Here's a short video of what happens when you try to put out burning magnesiun with water. Makes you think those vehicles should come with a large warning for rescue personal. Sidenote: A CO2 extinguisher with also cause a really neat, uh, I mean bad reaction.

My theory about why magnesium engine catch on fire easier than mag wheels is the heat generated in an engine fire is much more contained and can't escape the engine compartment. The rims are exposed to the air and so the heat can radiate away.

-Blast

I have a VW bug with a Porsche mag engine in it burn one night, L.A. County Fire wouldn't believe that they couldn't put it out with water, in no time at all I had three lanes of I-5 flared off for all the equipment they rolled, they put a jillion gallons of water on it, and guess what, it burned forever. That was in about 1974, I think you can still see the burn marks on the pavement...

Mostly true, but you can still find rims made of ZK60 magnesium alloy, especially on customized higher-end cars. My brother used to work at a metal shop that would custom-machine rims from this metal. He kept me well supplied in magnesium chips. One rim was made off spec...

Shaving an aluminum alloy rim down into flakes/power will also give you a lovely flare to signal with.

-Blast