First, the disclaimer: I am NOT advocating that anyone carry a weapon without being aware of and following all applicable laws.

Now, the dilemma: Like many of you, I live and work in an urban environment but often enjoy spending free time in mountain, desert or wilderness areas. Therefore my B.O.B. is not static, it changes to reflect my expected needs (and budget!). My problem is never what to pack, it's what Not to pack! I know that if I give in to the urge to throw in that chrome plated, solar powered, liquid filled, extra fiber, 4 season espresso maker, my bag will soon become so heavy that I won't carry it anymore. One non-negotiable item is a gun (see disclaimer above). Why, you ask? For wild animals... the two legged variety, not the four.

Now, having followed several recent posts about guns and caliber, I'm not about to re-open that whole can of worms, but to quote a couple of wise sayings: "The best gun is the one you're carrying when you need it." and "The only thing scarier than 500grs. whistling past your ears is 30 grs. passing between them."


So, what's my solution? Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the mighty .22!











As you can see, it's small, light, dependable (it's a revolver!) and it chambers a readily available, inexpensive round. I can throw the weapon and 100rnds of ammo in my B.O.B., and scarcely feel the gain in weight. Since the ammo is so cheap, I am able to shoot it often enough to stay proficient and hopefully achieve that, "oh so important" shot placement.

Yes, in the perfect world I would be carrying the [Fill in the name of your favorite gun here], but I have one of those and I know how heavy it and 100rnds of ammo get after lugging it around everywhere, so thank you very much but at the end of the day, it's the .22 that goes in the bag.


Now I'm certain everyone here agrees with me, but in the slight chance that there's any differing opinions (not on this board! <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), I'm open to suggestions...

Excellent Post! I prefer a Beretta Jetfire in .25 just because the follow up shots are a little quicker and the .25 is more reliable in an auto but the .22 mini revolver is a really great weapon that can be with you all the time.

What do you think of this .25?

I hope that this is not opening the caliber debate, but that revolver is available in .22 mag which has a much higher energy factor than the .22lr. .22 mag is a much better round than the .25 as well. I would have to agree that the NAA mini revolver is much better than any other gun locked in your safe at home. Seriously consider the .22 mag you won't be sorry.

Go with the 22 mag if this gun is your choice

I would agree that any gun is better than no gun, but, having fired a few of those little guys, I wonder exactly what you plan on using it for. Self defense, it will work, at knife fight distances. But unless you hit the bad guy in the left eye, he is going to get to you even after being shot, and he is going to be mad. As far as game getting, I doubt that most shooters would be able to hit a rabbit at 25 feet with one...

If it meets your needs, it is the correct gun for that days activity. I carry CCI Stingers in my version.

Actually, I have that exact setup - holster grip, barrel length, everything. Freaky!

I was seriously considering, just for fun, designing sort of a military style PSK tin with one of those included (without the holster grip to save room) for the primary purpose of taking small game at close range. Around here, I've seen squirrels and birds that were very close, but just out of reach - 10 meters away or less. However, it does lack any sort of real sights, and I haven't gotten a chance to go to the range and see if it can hit targets reasonably often at that range yet...

After seeing those two micro gun photos, I was having a flashback to that scene in Crocodile Dundee where the perp pulls out a little knife, and then Dundee laughs and says, "you call that a knife? THIS IS A KNIFE" <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Responses:

Learnmore & Molot, I hear what you're saying re: .22 mag, but seriously, when we're talking about the.22 it really doesn't matter whether it's .22 short, LR, mag, hollow point, truncated or round nose...if the fact that you brandish it, shoot it and then actually hit your assailant doesn't end the fight, then you better have a plan "B" ready. Again, this isn't the ideal stopping power gun, it's the one I'm willing to carry when it's 96 degrees out in July and I want to wear shorts and a T-shirt.

OldBaldGuy, you're right about hitting a rabbit @ 25' but if you end up lost in the woods with this little plinker and the above mentioned 100rnds., that's 100 chances more of getting dinner than you'd have otherwise...remember, my rational is carry this because I know I will, or carry no gun at all.

Ponder, That's what I have in mine.

Burncycle, great minds think alike! I've been to the range with it and you're right in thinking that It's really only plausible for very close range game.

Kinda like bringing an almost gun to a knife fight...

Ron,
Touche, but which would you rather carry around all day, the micro-gun, or this?

"...that's 100 chances more of getting dinner..."

In that case, I think that I would throw in 50 rounds of snake shot, you might have better luck with birds up close...

OldBaldGuy,
Good point, but have you priced that stuff lately? It's expensive. However for a B.O.B., I guess the expense can be easily justified.

Yup, and keep in mind that the .22 shotshell has really little bitty shot in it, and not much of it either. Might be a good idea to pop for a box, then do some pattern testing on a large piece of paper, just to get an idea of what you might or might not hit. And with that sized shot, hitting and bagging are not necessarily the same thing...

First rule of a survival weapon geared to social encounters is not to hand out photos of it like baby photos. I'm always bemused by fellas who talk paranoia about abc and then say Hey! wanna come on over for a brew and see my gun collection? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I know your in Pasadena and your employer by your username already <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry I'm confused; I see that you're talking about this gun and talking about going into the wildnerness. But later posts indicate something of a self-defense standpoint regarding the gun.

For varmit hunting the .22 has more than proved it's point. You also make a perfectly valid point about the ammo and it's definitely worth looking into. My concerns would only be the short barrel length interfering with accuracy and possibly the weight of the gun being so light it absorbs little recoil (though that's hardly a concern with a 22.

Obviously if it shoots well enough, then no big deal. I'd just rather have a gun with 5 rounds that hits consistently vs one that has 100 that can't hit anything.

From a self defense standpoint it's 50/50. Knife fighting range for a LEO as of current is 21 feet. Tests basically concluded that it a person wielding a knife can get to cutting distance of a person with a gun in the time or before the time they have a chance to draw and fire it.

It has been discovered (and I'm not a LEO btw) that this at times can be woefully inadequate. Knives cause huge injury upon impact and massive shock with even a minor hit. That being said, so can a gun. What is my point?

The gun you carry would be difficult to draw, unfold, and fire in a time in which someone with a knife could close on you and assault you.

As to damage capacity there are plenty of deaths every year with shootings involving the 22. Here are a few just to emphasize the point.

http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=45837
http://www.allbusiness.com/government/3628046-1.html
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4186/is_20050706/ai_n14723188

Anyways so I'm not disputing the round but rather simply the range involved (if it's not accurate to 21 ft you may want to consider something else) and the ease of drawing, unfolding and firing a weapon under duress.

Just my two cents!

If you are comfortable shooting it, it's easy to pack, and reliable, then why not carry it? My only reservation is that it does not appear to be that much smaller than something like a Kel Tec in .32 or .380. I guess you have to realistically assess your threat. If you routinely hike in areas frequented by bad guys, then maybe more gun is in order. But if your chances of running into a thug is judged remote, then I think your choice is a good one. Either way, you are probably right to not plan on collecting much game with any of the so-called "mouse guns".

IIRC its #12 shot & for birds its effective at around 20 feet. Granddad swore by the crimped end rounds that come in a box of 50 for keeping birds out of the cherry tree. The plastic tips from CCI didn't work as well.

Have you seen the Velocitors from CCI? They're a Stinger with a 40gr. bullet.

Mr. Kavanaugh,

First off, nice to make your (virtual) acquaintance. I really enjoy and appreciate the work you and the other Mods put in to keep this board going. Now, about your post...hmmm, O.K., I'll bite. The city of Pasadena has a population somewhere around 150,000, my employer has about 15,000 people on their payroll, if I was paranoid (and i'm not, just ask that guy who's always following me around!), I wouldn't have listed either my location or used that particular username, in fact I probably wouldn't be a member of this or any other forum. I'm not trying to hide my profession at all, in fact as strange as it may seem in this day and age, I'm proud of the job I do and will happily share any insight into SoCal LE that would benefit this board.

As far as the "first rule", I'm not sure I see your point, if you're saying that prior to a potentially violent encounter It's unwise to advertise to your assailant the type of weapon you have before you brandish it, I couldn't agree more. But if on the other hand, you're saying that by posting pictures of it here on this site, I'm somehow compromising it's future usefulness, then I guess I don't follow you. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Responding to Garland, Norad45 and NightHiker:

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but don't we all take calculated risks everyday? As has been said many times before on this board, on a purely statistical basis, the most dangerous thing we do everyday is get into our vehicles and drive around. We know the risks involved, do the best we can to lessen them and take our chances.

If I know I will be in a high crime/dangerous area, I will take appropriate precautions, but if I'm just out and about on my usual routine, I've put the weight/size vs. odds of needing onto the scale and for me at least, the .22 wins.

Right... and I'm not disputing that. I'm just confused on the focus of the thread so I gave you my thoughts from both corners. The first corner was from the purpose of shooting varmit(s). The second was for practical self defense.

I believe if you're going to carry you should carry something applicable to the situation as well. I believe that's a nice 22 with good portability and probably reasonable enough power to both defend and kill small game. My only concern really is really with the accuracy of the gun in terms of shooting small game and with the deployment aspect in a self defense scenario. Other than that it's a fine firearm.

Both are valid concerns, I readily admit it's a compromise. Sorry for the vauge focus of the post, I'm new to this thing!

I had that exact setup. The handle wobbles when it is open. It is very hard to hit anything with it.

If you are going to carry any handgun, carry a good one. If you need one you will need a real gun not a toy like gun with no stopping power or accuracy. If you meet a bad guy on the trail or a mountain lion you need something like a Glock 23 with good hollowpoints and an extra G22+2 magazine.

As a side note: I bought the .22 mag. NAA mini for use against rattlesnakes. When hunting I keep it in my pocket in the leather holster that it came with, loaded with CCI shotshells. Nice gun, but not a reliable stopper for anything bigger than a snake.

YoDuh,

If that's the case, I stand corrected and thank you for the clarification, and I heartily agree with your p.s.!

I'm not trying to be difficult, just clear.

I have good guns with great stopping power and high capacity magazines. They are heavy, bulky and overwhelmingly not used. If I ever make it up to Alaska to vacation or feel like grabbing lunch in Compton, I guarantee you I won't be carrying the NAA because the odds of running into trouble rise into what I feel is the danger zone.

Wouldn't we all agree that it's ideal to carry 5 gallons of water with you if you know that tomorrow you will be trapped in your office for 5 days due to an earthquake, but are you going to carry that same 5 gallons in your B.O.B. "just in case"? Of course not, it's not practicle, so instead we carry Aquapure tabs or the like as a compromise. Based on your above quote, it sounds to me that if your only choice was between carrying the NAA or nothing at all, your advice would be the later! To all those who would say, "I don't care how much it weighs, it's worth it to me to have the security of this 6" .45 mag wheelgun in my B.O.B. as I drive through McD's on my way to Wallyworld!" I say, carry away!

You may want to check the handle harware on your NAA, mine is solid and stable when I open it and it's over 10 years old. I agree with everyone about the limited range and stopping power of this set-up, but I also know that the average bad guy is an opportunist and will generally only get into something if he thinks he's got the upper hand. I've never been shot with a .22 (or anything else for that matter), so I can't comment on the psychological effect it might cause, maybe you're right and it would only further enrage my assailant, but I doubt it.

Please post the make and model of this gun. Thanks.

Luck you. In the U.K. it's strictly bare hands irrespective of what the vermin have. I had a nasty little encounter with 3 gentlemen of the ethnic minority persuasion about 4 years ago. One of them pulled a gun on me. May have been real or may have been a blank firer. Made the lethal mistake of coming within hands reach of me. Wound up as 3-0 in my favour. No, I didn't kill him - before you ask. They ran away after they discovered how dangerous someone who thinks that he is dead either way and has no intention of crossing the Styx alone is.
Having said that I would prefer a .22 Ruger semi-automatic pistol for pot an point defence. 2-5 rounds, Double tap to the center of mass followed by 2 aimed rounds to the head will settle matters. Just remember to wait until you cannot see daylight either side of him.......

http://www.naaminis.com/lrifle.html

I can carry my Kahr MK40 all day every day with no problem, and now they make it with a "plastic" frame, making it lighter, which should equate to easier to carry...

O.K., but when you pull out your MK40 and shoot the bad guy, you're gonna be stuck in the station all day writing paper. When I pull out my NAA .22, the bad guy is gonna be so busy laughing his a** off that I can make a tactical retreat and go enjoy a cold one! <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You probably got that right...

I've always thought that the .22 was underrated for self defense purposes.

I think I saw a study once that the vast majority of shooting encounter occur inside of 7 yards.

At that distance, I can reliably empty 10 rounds out of my .22 into a melon sized space in a couple of seconds. When I shoot a .40 or a .45 I am not nearly that accurate or fast.

My analogy is that I have a very nice 12 megapixel SLR with a 300MM telephoto lens that takes amazing pictures. But there is no way you can tote that all the time. So I have a little camera the size of deck of cards that I always have with me and it takes pretty good pics too.

As so many others have already pointed out, that tiny 5-shot .22 is not the ideal defense weapon or game getter. However, for your stated purpose of having a small, lightweight gun in a very compact B.O.B. with the alternative of carrying no gun at all, your choice may be just fine. Regardless of the shortcomings others have pointed out, it will go bang and sometimes that's enough.

Excellent analogy. While my handgun caliber of choice is .40S&W, I'll take a .22 over a rock any day.

Before you bet your other's lives on a mini revolver check out
www.theboxotruth.com and the section on little guns vs the box ot truth.

Take Care and Stay Safe

Sorry if this offends, but that revolver is a novelty item, not a defense tool.

Remember the velocitys, and balistics often quoted for .22 cal., are taken from rifles - not 1" barreled revolvers...

Although I would not discount the damage one of these could inflict, I would not consider one as an offensive weapon (where all is in your favor), much less a defensive weapon.

As to reliability, I have had to replace parts on a good number of these, not ALL revolvers are dependable. If you shoot one of these enough to become proficient with it, I see a few trips to your local gunsmith.

All that said, I do wish some company would (at - last) market a good "pocket gun", for defensive use...The best to date IMHO, was the remmington .41 Derringer.(often copied, never equaled)

As to use for hunting application:

See above., save the weight on the 100 rnds, and carry a can of sardines - then you'll have something to eat <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Are you referring to this? If so. I'd like to hear your reasoning. I'd take just about any modern handgun over that.

"...I'd like to hear your reasoning..."

Me too. 425 fps, even with a .41 cal bullet, is really slow...

Want to give me the statictics on a i" .22?

I'm not saying that the .41 Rem was a deadly (moderator deletion of profanity) , just saying that a 1" .22 isn't the answer ..OK ?

41cal ,125gr? @ 400fps=?VS .22cal,@ (1'bbl.
?? (I can dig out my books)=???

Just off the top of my head........Heads to basement......????

There was the Simerling?sp?.45acp. , but I think that they only made 2-300 of these

Products have been marketed in this size-arena since before cartridges were invented, they have never proven themselves Worthwhile however to have a market...................................................................................

I agree that a .41rf is probably better than a 1" .22rf, but the "best" pocket pistol ever, that I have a hard time with. If you like the two shot derringer, Remington copies have been made it .38spl, .357, .44 mag (I don't want to be around when that one goes off), and probably bigger calibers.

But if you define pocket pistol as a pistol you can carry in your pocket, I carry my Kahr MK40 in a DeSantis pocket holster all the time, and I will take it over any two shot ever made...

Well, you said this:

And then you said this:

You, my friend, have me "Powerfull confused" <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

How do you like your Kahr? I thought about a PM9 but I decided on a Sig 239 (a little bigger.) I might still spring for the Kahr come tax refund time though....

Oh, and my pocket pistol is a P3AT in a Desantis. Balances out the Bic and the KF4 in my other pocket... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I love it. Bought it right after they came out, no telling how many rounds I have fired with it, never a jam or bobble. It points where I look, I don't have to even think about the sights at 15 yards or under. I might swap it for the plastic frame version, but just can't justify the expense...

Never said that a.41 Rem. was a good round, nor do I defend itt, presonably I think it sucks, it lust happens to be the "best" within the question...........................................................through me under the buss as U will

Yes as I stated "often copied, never duplicated" a.44 mag "copy" has been made' but why would you want one, there have been 45-70 copys- do you want one of them??

I speak of the genuine article hear - have you ever touched one?????

To the point, most copys have been somewhat large, and have been made of poor mattls.

And more to the point:

Show me a good (true) "Pocket pistol" the "Indrustry " has been marketing them sciencs before the civil war, and i"ve yet to see one

'Tho I don't believe that the "indrustry"cannot supply a better suited arm to us, I cannot imagine why

"...have you ever touched one..."

In fact I have.

I guess that defining a pocket pistol is kindasorta like defining porn...

I really didn't mean to get back into the whole caliber debate, but I suppose that was a little naive of me, anytime you mention a gun and caliber in the same post it's bound to come up.

Let me clarify, I would never presume to state that the .22 is the ideal round, the facts just don't justify it. One could make the argument to it's superiority over say the .25 or maybe the .32, but even that is stretching it.

When I am working or spending time in the city, I have a .38 or a 9mm, and I would probably still be outgunned caliber wise in most encounters. The only arena my NAA .22 commands is in the B.O.B. If I hike up Mt. Whitney or Old Baldy, every ounce is carefully chosen and agonized over. If I was to be perfectly honest with myself, I would have to admit that any gun at all is probably an unneccessary burden, but never-the-less one I am unwilling to give up.

I apologize to anyone who misconstrued my post as suggesting that the .22 is the ultimate caliber, I didn't say it initially and don't claim it now. If you are physically fit enough to carry a fully loaded .44, .45, 9mm, etc., etc., in your B.O.B., along with all the other essential gear a prudent person should have, then more power to you, I guess I'm just not that strong or willing enough to carry extra weight I have a 99.99% chance of never needing. My first time hiking up Mt. Whitney, I carried about 40lbs. in my pack and was completely miserable. The second time I did Whitney, I left about 20lbs. of the unneccessary gear home and had a great time!

My question to those of you who would tell me how worthless my NAA .22 would be if I ever had to use it is, How often had you needed to use your weapon? My guess is not all that often, so instead of playing the odds (way in my favor), that nothing will happen and not carrying anything, I carry the NAA in my B.O.B.

Good; now can you imagine taking one in the belly - vs a.22/ w a 1" bbl.????

Look man I'm not looking to pick a fight or anything, but do the math - a 1" bbl .22 rev can bearly get out of a paper bag (so to speak ) much less stop a fight........meanwhile thre 41 will do some (if not too deep) damage

O.K. People, I am going to lock the thread so we can move the forum faster than a .41 rimfire, which I have fired. Anecdotally, the firearm is now highly collectable and a goodly percentage have broken latches anyway. Fiocchi produces the cartridge and you could hand your potential assailant a $20 bill instead and come out $40 ahead. It was a very popular hideout piece with peace officers well into the 1950s. Once again, firearms are a valid part of survival discussion. But they are a small part, emotionally and politically charged with as many opinions, anecdotes and views as cailbers.