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#83123 - 01/16/07 10:14 PM "What's Not In Your Survival Vest?"
Glock-A-Roo Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 1076
Here is an article by a Navy pilot regarding a survival & evasion test he went through. There are elements that would pertain to military or stealth situations but also some gems that are more universally applicable. The article is not dated but some of the gear seems to be old-school. Still, it is interesting to see another perspective. I suspect there might be some more interesting articles on that main site.

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#83125 - 01/16/07 11:03 PM Re: "What's Not In Your Survival Vest?"
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2211
Loc: NE Wisconsin
Good article from someone who has a higher chance of having to walk the talk than many of us. Thanks for the link.

Comments/Questions:
Water Purification - He suggests including purification tablets - does a pilot typically carry a water container/supply?

Fire Starting - It is interesting that he recommends the Strike Force or Blastmatch (though he calls it the Blastmaster - cool name). I thought the Spark-Lite specifically created for aviation - it is much smaller and comes with tinder.

Evation Charts - I'm assuming these are on Tyvek-related material, based on the washing hint.

GPS - He mentions having a GPS with maps, but I'm wondering if maps are typically available for areas of conflict?

US Knife - Does anyone know what kind of knife this is?

Right Angle Flashlight - Why do they use right-angled lights?

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#83126 - 01/16/07 11:22 PM Re: "What's Not In Your Survival Vest?"
MarshAviator Offline
Marsh Aviator
Journeyman

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 70
Loc: Baton Rouge, LA, USA
Here are some observations;
does a pilot typically carry a water container/supply?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes typically there is a water bag in most mil service vest, used to be flask, but now replaced by sealed water pouch's 4 oz.
Also the general kit has another water bag, plus a condom for the additional storage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought the Spark-Lite specifically created for aviation
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes your right, almost all of the mil kits now have the spark-lite, and a consideration is the potential of one handed use, which you will find difficult with ferocerium (synthetic flint) rods.
I have tried and own all of the above and the magnesium block (DOANS) as well. Each has it's pros and cons.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Evation Charts
Close enough.
-----------------------------------
GPS - He mentions having a GPS with maps, but I'm wondering if maps are typically available for areas of conflict?
Yes they are, also there is the MGRS / LAT&LONG issue as well.
Aviation uses LAT LONG, ground forces typcially MGRS.
But charts are provided.
--------------------------------------------------
US Knife - Does anyone know what kind of knife this is?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
It's the stainless steel knife that some call the demo knife (for demolitions)
Spear point,can opener,awl-reamer,screwdriver and bail hook for lanyard.
For a lot of aviators you could wind up packing three;
US,
MC-1 with shroud cutting hook (automatic opening).

Used to be the Camilus "Pilots" knife called knife,hunting actually.
Now it's the ASEK (aircrew survival and egress knife) with intregal strap cutting tool and ceramic sharpener. Also nice nylon leg sheath now instead of making an already bulky vest even more bulky.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Right Angle Flashlight - Why do they use right-angled lights?
Well to drive you crazy. No actually the idea is to attach to vest or equipment and use hands free. Comes with night vision saving colors usually red and a diffuser too (for even lighting).

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#83127 - 01/17/07 12:37 AM Re: "What's Not In Your Survival Vest?"
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
I won't date myself, but when I was wearing one of those vests the focus was on survival and rescue at sea. Going down over land for us was very remote, while going down while over water a very real possibility. An FA-18 pilot has a good chance of going down over water, but with overland strike missions, survival and evasion over land is just as real.

While the idea of starting a fire and getting warmed up is good, a fire can be seen by the folks you're evading. Having the option is good, using the option needs to be carefully thought out. The idea of flying in full-length thermals and wools socks was pitched to me by a flight surgeon back in the 70's -- excellent idea, BTDT. Steel toe flight boots are still cold. . . whodathunk. Still got mine, never wear 'em.

I like the use of the laser as a signalling device. I'd be very surprised if they didn't go IR instead of red or green since so many acft are equipped with IR gear. Not my call, been a long time since I had any input.
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Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
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#83128 - 01/17/07 02:11 AM Re: "What's Not In Your Survival Vest?"
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
I was rather shocked by the lack of firestarting equippment in the vest, particularly with the Sparklite and the Doans both having stock numbers. Is that monsterous old fishing kit still issued? If so, I'd try to pull mine, replace it with a smaller one, two rolls of dental floos and fire gear if I was issued one.

The lack of water purification was distressing. As was the ideo of putting purification agents in plastic bags- yeah, you loose too much of your effectiveness too fast that way. Better off keeping them in the glass bottles or foil flats, whichever the manufacturer keeps it in. Not so bright for this flyer.

I assumed he was talking about the USGI pocket knife. Yeah, a mutlitool or Vic Ranger or Hunter should replace every single one of those retched things in our inventory.

Better than the mini right angle, a Gerber Infinity with a headband holder for it. Enough said there.

I was surprised to see steel toes issued to pilots, rather than composite.

Kinda depressing that the stuff that isn't flashy and high tech/semi-magical seems to have gotten worse since Vietnam, at least based on what I've read.

RAS, you'd know- what is the five pounds he refeers to? Is that the skin-out total, or the loaded vest, the contents of the vest, or the pilot's personal additions?


Edited by ironraven (01/17/07 02:13 AM)
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When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#83129 - 01/17/07 03:59 AM Re: "What's Not In Your Survival Vest?"
MarshAviator Offline
Marsh Aviator
Journeyman

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 70
Loc: Baton Rouge, LA, USA
IIRC it's the personal additions not to exceed 5 lbs.
Some units have "Required" personal additions as well.
The vest is well over that (5 lbs).

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#83130 - 01/17/07 05:19 AM Re: "What's Not In Your Survival Vest?"
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
As I understand it that's the pilot's/squadrons additions. I'm not that close to it these days and when I was active there was no mention of any 5 lbs. We carried what the paraloft put in the vest and that was that. I'll ask next opportunity.

As for lack of some gear, that may be a holdover from the "survival at sea" days. No drinking water to purify (salt water), no good tinder or firewood. I s'pose you could burn the raft, but that would make floating more challenging. You aren't supposed to be there long enough to get hungry. Quick energy food, candy, snack bar, pop a flare, talk on the radio. . . helo ride.

Steel toes: I don't know how composite materials are in a fire, but that would definitely be a requirement. That and keep the pilot's toes attached to his feet during an ejection (a very violent thing). If I had the option I'd have opted for no steel. I didn't do ejection seats and never had the occassion to need steel protecting my toes. OTOH, those boots were very cold, wool socks notwithstanding.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#83131 - 01/17/07 03:41 PM Re: "What's Not In Your Survival Vest?"
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 882
Loc: Colorado
At least the guy is thinking about it and the Squadron is acting on good ideas and new information.

If you read Approach magazine (same Navy website) you'll find that aircrew sometimes don't fully absorb all the material because "it'll never happen to me."

My hobby is looking for old aircraft wrecks and I've thought a lot about the survival aspect of the bailout. I'm convinced that my seatpan kit should weigh at least 80lb!

The crew of an A3D who bailed out over the mountains of Colorado in 1970 were lucky that it was August. The parachute shelter and firestarting worked for the hours it took to be rescued. Had it been January they would have died of exposure before the search helo had even lifted.

The evasion part of the equation is a real difficult issue. On this board we want to be found. Evading to be found by the right people sounds extremely challenging.

Right angle flashlight- my father, VN era F-4 pilot, says he'd
clip it to his harness turned on with red lighting and aimed at the instrument panel for every night catapault shot. Should all the electricity go out on teh cat stroke, he could still see the backup gyro with that lighting long enough to work the problem (reset breakers, jettison stores, keep wings level and get away from the water). Chances are that in an ejection that particular piece of gear would disappear unless it were tucked into a closed vest pocket. Tradeoffs.

They have a lot to deal with so studying up on survival techniques is just one of many, many skills needed to stay alive in Naval Aviation.


unimogbert

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#83134 - 01/17/07 04:23 PM Re: "What's Not In Your Survival Vest?"
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...does a pilot typically carry a water container/supply?..."

When I was in the USAF, what I typically saw was AF and Army pilots carrying those little OD green "hip flask" bottles in a leg pocket, and many had a condom or two hidden someplace on them as an emergency canteen (or maybe they hoped to find some real friendly natives???), Navy pilots carried in their chest vest baby bottles of water, with just the flat cap on top. Macho it ain't but they fit. And some seemed to carry nothing...

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#83135 - 01/17/07 05:14 PM Re: "What's Not In Your Survival Vest?"
brandtb Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 514
Loc: S.E. Pennsylvania
In the link, he suggests taking the water purification tablets out of the glass container and repacking in baggies to save weight. Once the glass container is opened, the tablets start to degrade rapidly, in my experience.
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