First post so please go easy on me. Break me in gently.....

Help me understand this: I keep reading about people who were "unprepared" for the experience they endured. Doesn't matter if was Mr. Kim, hikers on Mt. Hood, or the guy with the PLB thing. Even is someone DOES survive, I read of how they should have done things better.

So, I would like to know if anyone has been in an unexpected situation where they had all they items they needed to get safely back (whether they were in cold, warm, tropic, or a desert environment.)

Thanks and waiting (with head tucked in my shoulders and hands covering all the vitals......)

Michael

Welcome, and I will try to be gentle.

If you are prepared for a likely situation, and it happens, then it is inconvenient, but not an emergency.

For example, you carry a spare tire in your vehicle. You have the tools and knowledge to change a flat tire as well. Someday you may have a flat. You change it and continue on your way. Now, for some people (not on this forum), this would be an EMERGENCY!

If I am out on a day hike, and get stuck out overnight, it is an unplanned and uncomfortable overnight hike. It does not kill me.

Is that what you were getting at?

Many people are in those situations every day, getting home safe and sound without problem isn't very news worthy.
Getting home safe with some issues is a learning exercise, just as learning from others mistakes.
You must be careful to not confuse learning ans criticism, sometimes it can be hard to tell the difference.
Learning from mistakes is a good way to learn, I sure make enough mistakes that someday I should be really smart <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
There is also Murphy's law. Whatever goes wrong it will be the one thing you haven't prepared for. I make the following addition to Murphy's law: The more gear you have the less chance you will need it so its better to buy, pack and carry as much gear as you can.

Sure, I had my PSK, belt kit, knife, folding saw, and hydration backpack (along with a few other things) on me while out searching for suitable timber to cut for woodcarving over a year ago. I unexpectedly got disoriented, and had to use my compass to find my way out of the woods. Not good enough?

“Enough” is a pretty relative term. I’ve been in a few situations that I have needed to use my survival gear. However, I am still here to share my stories, so I would say that I was adequately prepared to handle the situation. Sure there are instances I wish I had brought some different gear or done things differently, but when I look back on a past experience, it is all too easy to pick out what I could have done better.

One of my favorite stories is when my friends and I (7 people in all) drove to the mountains one evening to play in the snow. We were having a blast and before we knew it, it has becoming dark. We decided it was time to turn around and head home. The snow must have softened while we were up there or something, because on the way down we hit a soft spot, and all three vehicles (my Jeep, a Subaru, and a stock F-150) sunk down so their undercarriages were hi-centered on the snow.

I did not have a winch, so I rigged up a sort of hand winch using my Hi-Lift Jack, tow chains, and a few tow straps. It was a lot of hard work, but eventually we were able to free my Jeep and move it to more solid ground. From there I had to daisy chain all 3 of my tow straps together to reach the other vehicles and tow them out. We were stuck up there for the better half of the night, and luckily I had enough food, water, extra clothing, etc in my jeep to keep everyone comfortable.

In retrospect, winch would have saved me a lot of time and effort, but it turned out I was some how able to make it home without one. However, if I had been any less prepared, we would have been in real trouble. I had enough personal gear for me to spend the night, but not enough for the other 6 people in my group. By the end of the night not one piece of my recovery equipment or survival gear went un-used.

No, you are never prepared enough, is the simple answer.

The guy who went hiking and cliffed out, took a risk, but he stopped when he was in over his head and he rescued. He stopped when it was too risky, he stayed put and signaled.

The guys on Hood got overwelmed by a variable outside of thier control and things went down hill. Bad luck, compounded by over confidence and lack of means to signal.

Kim did a lot wrong except keep his kids alive, and that was probably as much his wife as him.

My oops were compounded by over confidence, lack of equipment, and poor planning.

So no, you CAN'T be prepared enough. But what you've seen have been after action analysis of the events. Those are supposed to be complete and detailed, so you know what went wrong, how it when wrong, and what could have been done to make it better. It's called learning from another's mistakes. And when you screw up enough, we aren't going to be subtle. As I might have said other places, if I die due to an oops on my part, I want this forum to disect my last actions to see what I did wrong.

Hi Mike,

Welcome to ETS. Please enjoy your visits and come back often. You will most likely find that we are a pretty friendly bunch and hopefully you will enjoy the camadarie and information that is available.

With respect to the question that you posed, KI6IW has pretty much set the common theme for being prepared. If you prepare for something, anybody can always "Monday morning quarterback" with 20-20 hindsight and say that if you had this or that (or done this or that) you would have been better off. And in many cases this will likely be true.

However, like many other things in life, this can be carried to extremes...i.e. it would seem that you could have everything that you could pack into an ocean liner (in order to be prepared when the planned outing is just to cruise around Key Largo for half a day) and still be short of something. The extra energy and resouces that you applied to the trip would not be commesurate with the enjoyment of that cruise.

Please understand that I'm not by any means advocating going unprepared, just simply stating that one's preparations should be in line (and practical) with the planned activity. A walk in a city park to go fly kites is not the normal time that one would require a PLB, however having one with you when spending a day backpacking in the wilderness would be a more likely venue for needing it.

In reality, it is doubtful that anyone could ever be prepared for everything all the time and everywhere that they might find themselves. The point is to be as PREPARED AS PRACTICAL for the time and place that you expect to be going.

It is really kind of like buying insurance, you never hope you need it, but it is there just in case. The bottom line is that you never see the accident that you've prevented by being prepared properly.

Hope this helps answer your question.

Regards,
Comanche7

"The bottom line is that you never see the accident that you've prevented by being prepared properly."

- I like that.

Harley

If I am out on a day hike, and get stuck out overnight, it is an unplanned and uncomfortable overnight hike. It does not kill me.

I try to hammer that concept into the boys in the troop all the time. When we are on what we think is a day hike, I always make sure they have thought about what they would need to have with them if they had to spend the night out.

I learned the hard way as a youth. Some college buddies and I had "hiked" into a fairly remote stream to do some trout fishing. Great fishing, but, one of my buddies was trying to get out into the stream to cast into a certain swirl... well, rocks in streams are often slippery. The rest of his mishap is blurry, because we were actually laughing at him until we realized he had done something bad to his lower leg, and couldn't get out of the water the way his ankle was jammed. In the end, he was a nasty mess, with a couple body parts going in wrong directions, but, nothing compound, so it was only a nasty mess, not a bloody mess <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> We were already in early evening. We had figured we might be walking the end of the trail in the dark on the way out, but, we had all been here before, and didn't worry about it. Now, however, the three of us were down to 2 able bodied and 1 who couldn't walk. Fortunately, in our tackle bags, we had enough stuff to lash together some sticks to immobilize the leg, and used a couple of bandanas to wrap his ankle. We decided to spend the night, and walk out at first light, rather than trying to walk Jim out in the dark on a hilly trail. (We really didn't want to stay that night, we were afraid how painful his leg was going to get, but, for some reason, he was ok if he was able to keep it still.) I remembered RICE, rest, ice, compression, elevation from my Scouting days, and although we didn't have ice, he did put his leg in the cold mountain stream for 15 of 20 minutes each hour, and it seemed to help.

We had a lighter, bait knife, some junk food, and a stream. We made a nice fire, dried out our clothes, built up some soft bedding from pine bows, and really didn't suffer too much. We even cooked a couple of trout fillets wrapped around sticks over the fire. I can remember parts of that night like they were yesterday.

It was really not such a big deal now that I think of it, but, at the time, we all felt pretty stupid about several things. We hadn't told anyone where we were going, we didn't really have any food, or water to speak of, just a couple candy bars and the soda bottles that we used to get water from the stream. (Back then we didn't know about filtering that stuff.)
We had no extra clothes, and it's a good thing it was summer. We didn't have even the most basic of first aid supplies with us, or even a whistle to signal if we had needed to. I think between the three of us we had one flashlight, and that was by accident, it was in a tackle bag. We improvised a bunch, and that was good. I guess the most amazing thing was that none of us "lost it" during this. We were certainly in an unplanned situation, but, we all had done a lot of "planned" camping, and so the outdoors wasn't really a scary place for us.

Ever since then, I have been far more aware of the "ten essentials" and having them with me... I knew what they were back then, from my days as a Boy Scout, I always had that stuff with me on my "planned" overnights... but, I hadn't really taken them to heart until I had my own unexpected night in the woods. I guess that's why I work so hard to help the boys in my Troop learn the lesson too.

Yep, that was gentle. Thanks.

As usual, great responses. I appreciate your comments and your time.

Ok, that's it then! The next time I post something, you can take the gloves off and roll up yer sleeves and let me have it! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Michael

When you're totally prepared, it's called "camping".

Welcome aboard, Michael!

And no worries... Asking questions is a good way to find the answers you're looking for... That and the search function... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Not too long ago I was in a situation where I took a wrong turn on a trail and instead of hiking the three miles I thought I was going to, I ended up having to do eight or so (estimate). It was getting dark, and if I hadn't managed to orient myself and pick up the pace I would have had to stay the night as they close the gates of the park at sunset and my car would have been trapped until sunrise.

If I had not managed to get my bearings to at least get to the car for the night, I had my small bug out bag with me, and within it was everything I would have needed to make it through the night without much hassle.

In truth, I probably would have actually enjoyed it... Well, except for the embarrassment of explaining to the rangers why I was camping in an undesignated spot without a permit.

I had informed family members where I was, but I also had a cell phone with me and probably could have hiked to a spot outside of the park where I could get a good signal.

But as other's have mentioned, it would have been more an inconvenience than a survival situation as I was prepared... Not to mention the fact that the park is surrounded by major roads and barring injury if I had maintained a constant direction using my compass I would have gotten to a road before any real emergency situation had set in. It would have been a heck of a hike, but it would have been do-able.

In any case, I got to my car and out of the park before the gates were locked.

On the last mile or so, my hike turned into a jog and under the trees, though the sun had not set, the trail was getting very dark. Thank goodness I had a flashlight. It was the only piece of "survival gear" I needed that day.

Still, when I analyze the situation, I come to a few conclusions about what I did right and wrong.

What I did wrong:
1. Knowing that I had gotten a late start in the day, I should have hiked on ground that I knew well rather than trying out an entirely new area that I was completely unfamiliar with.
2. Instead of attempting to memorize the "easy" map at the trail head, I should have gotten a real map.
3. Once I got to mile three and realized I was nowhere near where I expected to be, meaning the trail ending at the far side of the parking area, I should have backtracked.
4. At mile four(ish) I should have stopped the biker I saw coming off a side trail and asked how far I was from where I needed to be.
5. Instead of parking in a part of the lot that was under construction, under trees with low hanging branches, in between mounds of dirt and gravel, I should have parked in a spot where my car would have been more visible.
6. I was taking a chance by jogging on a small path in the dark by flashlight. I could have been injured.
7. I had no real way of knowing if I was going to make it to my car in time if at all, had worked up a good sweat and it was getting chilly. Though I had the means to make a shelter and a fire, a few missteps could have seen me cold and wet as it got colder and I began to prepare for the overnight stay.

What I did right:
1. I never really panicked.
2. On hikes my small BOB goes with me. It includes my large PSK, small FAK, food, water, a knife and more.
3. I had my small PSK with me as well.
4. When I realized that I might be stuck in the woods for the night, I began to strategize. I decided what I would do in case I couldn't find my car, in case I found my car and couldn't make it out and so on.
5. I maintained a sense of humor about the situation.

As I mentioned above, barring injury, even in the worse case scenario, I most likely would have only been embarrassed by the whole ordeal. It was a learning experience though.

Yes, there are people who are totally prepared, but you never hear about them because like duckear said, they were just camping, at worst they were inconvenienced. Any time a situation turns on SAR, people are going to dissect what happened, whether they live or not. What did they do wrong, what did they do right, how can we learn from this experience. . . It's not about throwing stones and piling on, it's about learning.

The guy who was recently rescued off the cliff face is going through this process himself. He admits he screwed up, left some of his gear at the bottom rather than carrying it. Fortunately, he brought that PLB so he's around to critique himself. Many aren't so we do it for them. He's even critiquing the PLB and it saved his life.

Great points! Again, great comments and responses. You folks put issues in the proper persepective. I will continue to lurk between the postings and enjoy your comments and learn more.

Now, if we could just convince my family and friends that I ain't the winner of a loony bed in the State hospital, that warm and fuzzy feeling will return.

Michael

I have (sort of):

my introduction post

Welcome!

Good question.

I'm new to the forum also. So from one newbie to another, welcome.

I can only echo some of the sentiments already posted. If you are prepared, it's an inconvenience that will never make the news. If not, then it becomes a life threatening emergency.

I grew up in Arizona (but now live in NYC) so most of my outdoor experience is in the desert. My friends and I liked to camp and 4 wheel, so we had a few close calls. Fortunately, my father was a WWII vet who fought in North Africa. He knew about desert survival and took great pains to teach me all he had learned. The most important lesson was, as I am sure you have heard many times before on this forum, to be prepared.

I have on more than one occasion had to hike back to town after getting the 4WD stuck. (One of the "virtues" of owning a 4wd is that you can get stuck farther from a paved road than the guy who only owns a 2wd.) I always carried water, food, a compass, and a flashlight among other things. So the worst I ever suffered was sunburn and sore muscles. Without water at the least, I can think of more than one time when things could have turned out much worse.

One of the great virtues of this forum is that there are several very knowledgable people here who expertly analze the mistakes others have made. That has helped me be able to analyze the mistakes I have made, and hopefully adjusted my strategies and preparation accordingly. But only time will tell.

Welcome to ETS.
Truth is no you can never be too prepared but that said chances are that you can't always have that preparation available.
One needs to develop survival SKILLS and KNOWLEDGE before toys and gear.
I could give a lot of people I know a box of matches, tinder, a knife, cordage and a tarp and they would not know what to do with it even after watching all of the past seasons of "Survivor".
On the other hand being able to survive with nothing takes skill and knowlegde that allows you to use what is available.
For me if I have a knife and a way to make a spark I am pretty good to go in a lot of situations. To enhance my abilities I try to learn about primitive and early American skills. These everyday skills our ancestors new kept them alive more than just their preparation. For instance look at the typical "possibilities bag" carried by trappers and mountain men. A few tools to take advantage of a lot of skill and knowledge.
Learning how early peoples improvised shelter, containers, cordage, fire tools and the like allows you to use what is available if you find yourself without your survival preparations.

The guy that cliffed out in Texas was lucky to have his PLB but he was irresponsible in his climb. Hikers do this all the time and are the majority of "climbing rescues".
He should have planned his route better, took some technical gear (even just a rope to lower off of) and maybe backed off instead of proceeded (don't climb what you can't surely downclimb). His PLB made up for his stupidity.
He may be lucky and smart for taking a PLB but that is about it.

When you're totally prepared, it's called "camping".
<img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Very funny.

My version of the truth is that no one can be totally prepared for everything. Conduct a sound, realistic threat assessment and keep reviewing and revising your personal preps as best as you can with the resources that are available to you. No one can attain "perfection" and if they could, time demands updating and upgrading, so the job is never completed.

I think you rarely hear of anyone being "prepared enough" for a situation, because if they were prepared, it's really a non-issue and not very noteworthy.

Headline: Guy gets lost in woods, is well-prepared, so he turns a dire situation into a camping trip. He was rescued a week later, tired and a bit hungry but otherwise in great shape. It's not good for TV without drama or fear.

If he still needed to be rescued he wasn't prepared enough. Part of be prepared enough is knowing where you are and how you will get to where you need to be -- self rescue. If you are injured and immobile, then you didn't prepare by bringing help.

I'd say "Yes". You can be prepared enough. However, you are never done getting prepared. You will always be on the lookout for items for your survival kits. Something smaller, something lighter, something with more multiple uses and so on.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with my daughter's boyfriend. We were talking about Katrina, and I offered the opinion that people who live in disaster-prone areas should be better at getting prepared, since they live through more potential disasters and disasters year after year.

He asked, "But how many times can you prepare for a disaster?"

And I answered, "You only have to prepare once. Thereafter, you do maintenance on your preparations."

Good point. Thanks for the input.