This is mainly aimed at apartment dwellers, as I know we have some from NYC and the Chicago area here- what is your plan to stay warm past two or three days in winter if both the gas and electricity fail? I can't imagine that you'd have real fireplaces in an apartment, for the insurance reasons if nothing else.

well i'm from holland, which is warmer in the winter. I have never turned on the heat in my room, people around me seems to loose enough heat to warm mine space. I just put on warmer clothing, when it isn't sufficient.

Personally i don't think heating you room is efficient nor safe. I would rather use the fuel of other form of power to boil water for a cup of tea. And let the stove cool in the room, to raise the temperature.

I'm from NYC, but not in an apartment - where I live in the city is more like suburbia. I've got a couple of cords of firewood for my fireplace.... I figure that should cover it

My plan is to use poly pro long johns, and blankets, sleeping bags, etc.
I also have enough military issue casualty blankets where I might staple them to a wall with the shiny side facing toward the room. Maybe it would act as a heat reflector.

That's my plan.
Fielddoc

We live in an apartment-sized condo outfitted with a wood-burning fireplace, for which we are pretty grateful. We'll also bundle up with layers of clothing, and enjoy plenty of hot drinks. I think that's about all we can do.

I don't have to worry about it so much here as the temp stays nice enough year round that extra clothing and/or blankets would work for the few months of the year that it gets 'cold' (avg winter high is 69.9, avg winter low is 43.3) with one or two nights a year below 32-34.. but the house I grew up in only had an old natural gas wall heater in the living room for heat in the winter (avg winter high of 65.8, avg winter low 28.6), which was on the far side of the house from my room, and I kept my door closed which further lowered the almost ineffective use of the wall heater that was just about as far away from me as it could be and still be in the same house.

Luckily I had east and south faceing windows so the sun shone in at least one of my windows for most of the day. I found that if I taped flat sheets of clear plastic over my windows that my room would stay much warmer (relatively speaking) day and night. Of corse I still used a wool blanket, light down comforter, and an old square cut synthetic filled 0 degree sleeping bag on my bed at night when it got real cold.

I still keep some of the large drop cloth sheeting on a roll in storage from back then.. if I needed to do it now for an emergency I'd hang several 'walls' of plastic from the roof a foot or so apart and at least one plastic 'roof' in the smallest chamber to reduce the size of the area I had to heat... though pitching the small tent inside would do the same thing and be less work..

PS the avgs are over the last 100 years and seem a bit high to me.

I lived in Manhattan in a bunch of different apartments and frankly, I don't know if I could have heated any of them if the "heat" had been out for an extended period. Something not too uncommon but generally an isolated problem, is having a boiler go out for a while in an apartment building. The electricity and gas will still be on and people will resort to all kinds of scary means to keep warm, like running the oven with the door open or using the burners for heat. Some try heating pots of water and then putting them in other rooms to try and warm them up. Some people develop elaborate systems of opening and closing doors in sequence to move heated air to different rooms in the apartment. Of course, hot plates and other electrical items often get overused and overloaded, too.

Many of these apartments are old, not insulated, the doors and windows are drafty, very little sunlight enters, no fireplace--it's not a great situation to be in. Without putting yourself and your neighbors in danger by actually burning something inside your apartment, trying to seal off a room and hunkering down with lots of blankets and such is probably the best you can do when all the utilities are out. Candles might warm your hands, but that's about it.

Within the last two weeks, I read something that said a single candle puts out about the same BTU as an inactive adult. I don't remember if it was sleeping or awake and just laying there.

It said that in an emergency, if you were alone or with an insuficient amount of people, in a small enough space where body heat could make a significant difference, you could use a candle or two to heat the area, providing they were used in a safe manner (such as placeing the candle inside a cleaned and vented soda can) and with adequate ventilation.

Sounds like a line from the Matrix movie. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ok, not the same source I read it from but this site has these numbers:
A human body produces at least 240 BTU/hour
Basal metabolism = 1 kcal/min * 60 min/hr = 60kcal/hour * 4 BTU/kcal = 240 BTU/hr
A single candle flame produces 850 BTU/hour

So a single candle is more like ~3.5 bodies..

The site also has what looks like formulas that you might be able to use to figure out the inside temp vs outside temp with the BTUs you calculate are heating the area vs the BTUs you calculate you loose.. but I only scaned the whole thing quickly after I found the information so I'm not even sure what its talking about heating in this site...

Yep, that's why with a good snow cave, a decent sleeping bag, a garbage bag (el cheapo bivy) and a couple candles, you can keep from freezing to death. It might not be warm, but you'll stablize around the low thirties, which is a lot better than negative low thirties. :P

Please dont throw me out this forum because of my question.
<img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

In another thread about "teddy" someone mentioned the other kind of teddy that his wife may be wearing. Seeing this thread got me into thinking , if SHTF and it gets that coooold , Brrrrr how are people going to do what they have to do ? You know, you need to remove some of your clothing to do it ! And you cant trust blankets to cover your b**t. With the 'activitiy' blankets may come loose and fall right or left.. At least I know it happens.

Anyone knows any tricks for that ???

Try zipping two sleeping bags together <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have field-tested this technique in the past. It is a most pleasant way to keep warm and can even generate heat without fire or fuel. Best tested and practiced before an emergency, to maintain proficiency. A source of sparks need not be carried in your kit, as they should be self-generating. YMMV.

Homo Sapiens survived quite a long time without much more then an open fire for a heat source, including periods where the average temperature was much lower then it is now.

In fact, barring major disease and wide-spread war, there has not been a period in history, that I can remember from my grade school lessons, that the population has not been on a steady rise.

Don't worry overly much about our ability to procreate in cold weather, we have done it before, and as long as we have the fertility and a large enough pool of genes, life will find a way.

Ironically, keeping warm in a snowcave may be easier than trying to keep warm at home. You may not really have a small enclosed space at home where a couple candles could stabilize the air temperature. A closet might work, if it wasn't too small to lie down comfortably in with all your blankets and such. Bathrooms are usually the smallest rooms in the house/apartment besides closets, but all that plumbing and tile might just suck all the heat away.

I'd have a propane catalytic heater going in every room and a window slightly open for ventilation.

Remember, you can always try "Thinking Outside of the Box". If your city dwelling has no heat for the long term, why not build one of these right in your living room?

You can use ANYTHING available for insulation.

Another option is to invite as many people over as will fit in a room, and have a big party. All that animal body heat will make it as warm as a barn full of cattle. It may even become so sweltering you will have to open a window.

I live in an appartment in Montréal, we rely on electricity to heat our housing. During the Ice Storm of 1998 I just bugged out and joined relatives who have a fireplace in their Condo. That's probably what I would do now since we can get pretty cold weather during winter, down to -22 °F. That's a reason I'm looking for wool blankets and new Thermos but I would bug out for sure.

Frankie

If you don't have relatives with fireplaces, they will open heated public shelter and you'll have to bug out and live there until the electricity is back.

I'm a city boy (San Francisco) and I'm definitely staying put. I live in an older house, built in the 1920's, and lucky to have a fireplace. Definitely cozy when it's stormy outside.

Check out Tom Brown's "Field Guide to City and Suburban Survival." It has a lot of practical ideas for making do, with what's available. In particular, his diagrams for building an insulated shelter with furniture and mattresses is great. There are a lot of resources in urban areas. I just hope I don't have to end up hunting and eating pigeons ;-(.

Your local CERT organization is a good place to get started. They have classes/drills for disaster planning/recovering, including emergency HAM communications. There are a lot of good people thinking about urban survival, especially in earthquake country. Get to know your neighbors, so you can rely on each other if the SHTF (including watching out for the bad guys.)

Hope this helps,
Lynn - W6JAE

I live in an apartment and had to go without electricity for 10 days in 2003 due to an ice storm. I still had my gas stove and could heat the apartment. I worked at a shelter. Some people would come to the shelter for part of the day to stay warm and go home at night. At night I slept without any heat on. I have a nice sleeping bag and I am accustomed to camping many days at a time in the winter. My windows are not in excellent shape so I have a roll of 6 mil plastic sheeting in my emergency kit that I can cover the windows with to reduce the draftyness. Without my gas stove I think I could use candle power to add a little heat and light. I have about a bazillion candles from yard sales.

I'll check out Tom Brown's guide, thanks for the reference. Actually I think it really depends on the scenario. During the Ice storm people in the suburbs who didn't want to leave their house had some trouble when the gas stations went empty and all that, many instead of going in a public shelter, they ended up in the hospital for hypothermia or CO poisonning. In this scenario it was more practical to just stuff you're favorite pillow into your BOB along with some ear plugs and personal items and get to a public shelter.

BTW, Buffalo pigeon wings with some tabasco sauce must not be so bad. I'll have to try it out.

I agree ... I live in a newer building, so there aren't too many drafts, but if both the gas and electricity are out then there's not a whole lot one can do to keep really warm.

Anyway, if I had to "bug in" without heating options, I might try to use the bathroom -- it's the smallest space in my 1 BR Manhattan apartment that I can essentially enclose, since the bedroom closet doors don't shut very tightly and there are non-closable louvers on the kitchen door. My Nuwick candle (plus all the sheets, blankets, duvets, coats, etc. at hand, piled into a nest) might be enough to take the edge off a cold winter's day/week if the building's heat went kaput. (Besides, the smoke/CO2 alarm is right outside the bathroom door, so I hope I'd get a warning if the candle was causing problems.) I'd rather have a WBF (wood-burning fireplace, in apartment-ad-shorthand) of course, but one normally only finds them in the more-expensive pre-war apartments that I really can't afford!

Even then, you must make sure in some way that your fireplace can withstand long lasting fires. During the Icestorm of 1998 many houses caught fire because of inadequate use of the fireplaces or obsolete fireplaces. And there was also a risk of the roof collapsing under the weight of ice. It was really messy. So poor apartment dwellers were actually safer because they had no other alternative other then move to a public shelter.

I don't have time right now to read the entire Thread here, -So I don't know if what I'm about to say has already been Answered / Addressed.

But here goes anyway.

In the kind of Push Comes to Shove here as you mention, -with no other Remedies or Options, -One'll just have to Bundle Up under a Good several Blankets / Bedspreads / Comforters, etc. Perhaps with various Sweathers, Sweatshirts, and other commonly available Warm Chlothing thrown into your Mix as well. A Slleping Bag could perhaps be added to the Blankets etc.

For one Unfamiliar with this Remedy, -One could find themself very Pleasantly Relieved and Surprised!

It all comes down to the all round Right Number, Type, and Arrangement of any or all of these.

I know of this only from 2 Winters now of Direct Personal Experience. (I and others I'm in touch with, havn't yet completed a much Better, Wood Stoved / Fireplaced Cabin yet). Every single Cold Winter Day or Nite as we've ever had yet, -I've been as Toasty Warm as a Bunny under such! Really now! Even when I don't take that Nice extra step of building a Fire outside!

So again, -I only Know this all too well, from Direct Personal Experience. (I've also basically mentioned this, in another Post or two as well).

Having Nothing Else!, -and Facing such a Situation as I mention, -It could well come down to what I here mention. And I do Highly Recommend it! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]ScottRezaLogan[/email]

We spent this past week caught in our home in the dark (Missouri)...no power at all.. It was a real eye-opener and I found that a lot of things on my mind were considered to be fairly common....an odd sort of trauma!

Going to a shelter presented one huge problem to us...NO PETS ALLOWED!

We stayed in this home for 4 days and it was a nightmare. I thought I was over-reacting, but I've found that my reactions were very typical for most of us.

This has expanded my interests, and I was amazed that there are others like me. We live through these things on different levels, and we will have to decide which level we will work within.

This one is to stay in very familtiar territory, but to behave in a non-typical way. It is sort of like suddenly writing with the other hand! : <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Pets are one of those issues that don't seem to have been given much thought in disaster planning. People with disabilities or mobility issues are another group--but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

I recently read that the American Humane Society estimates that about 2 out of 3 American households has a pet. That's over 350 million pets. Since so many people say that they will not leave their pets behind, or like you, have actually refused going to a shelter rather than leave your pets behind, it's a serious human welfare issue, as well as a pet welfare issue.

At least a number of states are enacting laws to address this situation. Here in California, a law just went into effect requiring disaster planners to consider pets in their contingency planning. However, exactly how pets will be treated is not clear yet and will likely vary by locality. I doubt that pets will be allowed in all shelters, but perhaps certain "pet friendly" shelters will be designated so that those with allergies or fear/dislike of pets can know which shelters to avoid. Or another option I have heard are separate pet-only shelters staffed by animal control staff, vets, volunteers, etc. which are separate from people shelters. Anyway, it's a much more complicated issue than it appears at first glance and is probably a major reason why the blanket "no pets" rules were first put into place.

wouldn't an alcohol stove/burner be a good source of heat indoors? they are extremely easy to make and from what i've read, burning alcohol does not produce carbon monoxide. i use one for camping and i love it. if i remember correctly, DR had a link to a site that gave instructions on how to make an alcohol stove with a coffee can and a roll of toilet paper. i tried it and made one out of a coke can and it worked fine. i've also read you can use just about any small can packed with cotton balls. and the best part is that you can use regular rubbing alcohol or even vodka, scotch, etc. as a fuel source. can someone confirm that burning alcohol does not release carbon monoxide? just wanna make sure thats correct. thanks.

Combustion of anything can and will create varying amounts of carbon monoxide. The difference between creating carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide is the availability of oxygen to the combustion process. If you take a look at some of the specs of backpacking alcohol stoves (such as Vargos), you will see that they disclaim "Use only in well ventilated area / Do not use indoors".

I'm not saying you can't use them indoors. Just open a window and allow ventilation, just like when using a kerosene heater. But, the fact remains that there are better options available, such as devices designed to minimize carbon monoxide and be used indoors, such as said kerosene heater.

i mentioned the alcohol stove cause i would think the materials to make one are pretty common household items. of course, if you got it, use a proper heater. i also managed to find those instructions DR referenced for the stove if anyone wants to check it out.

http://www.equipped.org/coffe_can_survival_heater.pdf

It's really designed more for a car or other small space, alchohol really don't make all that much heat.

Personally I find catalytic propane heaters or a 'buddy' heater to work well. Generally you can't heat the whole house but it's good enough for one room and the insulation will generally keep heat indoors. In my two bedroom townhouse we almost never run the heat because it stays a near constant 60 degrees upstairs and that's with 20 degree outdoor temps.

Lots of blankets, propane heaters, backup of an alcohol heater and a wood hobo stove for me. Worst case I head to my sister's (about 30-40 miles away) as she has a wood stove.

I also recommend keeping some oil lanterns + fuel on hand (though really you can run almost anything in an oil lantern... even vegetable oil) ... lantern fuel burns best and cleanest IMO. Adds a little heat to boot.

I've lived in the city, I've lived in the country, and I've lived in apartments and houses.

An apartment in the country (if there is such a thing) would be the worst place to live in terms of a long term power outage during a cold weather event like an ice storm.

A house in the country isn't much better if you aren't prepared. I went through an ice storm in a house in the country and it was 3 weeks before my heat, electricity, running water, phone, internet, etc. was turned back on. It just took them that long to get around to me.

A house in the city will get back on the grid much more quickly. I went through a vicious ice storm in a house like this and we were down between 48-72 hours.

An apartment in the city, though? Oof. I live in one now, temporarily, and I'm hear to tell you I cringe at the thought of anything going drastically wrong while we're here. In a little over a month I will live in a house in the city and will sleep much better at night.

I suppose the best thing an urban apartment dweller can do is have a good supply of extreme cold weather camping gear (which I do, but not my whole family!) Cold weather sleeping bag, heavy wool blankets, synthetic cold weather clothing, socks, underwear, etc. It is possible to keep quite comfortable in a very cold place but I'll tell you what those bathroom breaks are a real wakeup experience.

A small camp stove with some Esbit tablets and bottled water can be used quite effectively to make hot cocoa, coffee, meals, etc. but you do have to make sure you have abundant supplies of all this stuff. Bottled water will need to be stored in a place that never gets below freezing.