I do a modicum of travel in a large van, with my dogs. I don't drive in serious weather or at night if at all possible to do otherwise. Sometimes I sleep in the van on top of the dog crates. I always carry sleeping gear, food, water and etc. inc. first aid kit for myself and dogs. HOWEVER, as I am of an older age I'd like to have some portable heat in the van when it is frosty. I've read that Sterno gives off enough heat to keep the temp above freezing in an auto. Exactly what is Sterno in so far as it's chemical nature is concerned and is it really safe to burn inside a vehicle? How much window do I need to roll down to avoid suffocating? I wrap the crates in large cardboard boxes and then blankets. I can't cover the front totally as the dogs are 80 to 120 lbs and create a good amount of heat from their own stocky bodies. Input please.
I also saw a program that said if a soda bottle of water is exposed to direct sunlight for a full day it becomes sterilized: this in Africa. Comments please.
For me this information helps me to survive solo trips and go where angels fear to tread or at least were my friends think an old lady should not go.
Thanks. [color:"black"] [/color]

I think that I would be very leery of having Sterno, or any other flamable gel/liquid, in the vehicle with you sleeping. You could easily bump into the can or whatever it is sitting on, and spill burning liquid all over yourself, the dogs, or anything else. I think that I would look for one of the small catalitic heaters that run on one propane cylinder. Much safer in my opinion...

I read something about it in this post here on this sight, those posts say there is even more information if you search for sodis.

If you use ANY fuel burning appliance in your van at least have a battery opperated carbon monoxide detector in there with you!

Sterno is methyl alcohol with gelling agents put into it. Its the pink stuff you see under chaffing dishes and the like. I'm not sure it's warm enough to do much as far as heating goes, and if it spills (the part that is burning is liquefied) in a vehicle interior, your best bet is to bail out and grab the extinguisher as you go.

There is another thread around here somewhere about 12V appliances, including heaters, although I do like the idea of using a catalytic heater as it won't draw down your battery but you do need to be worried about ventilation.

Speaking of insulation, how much is under the dog crates? More of that, even if it is two inches of closed cell foam (used for upholstry work, even salvaged couch cushions will work), will keep them warmer. And if they aren't claustrophobic, a BIG blanket or two that can go over you and the crates will keep all of you a little more toasty.

I have used Sterno for years. As an open flame heat source it is about as safe as you can get. Since it is a gel it is far less prone to spillage than liquid fuel. Awhile back I emailed the company and specifically asked them about CO emissions. Here is the exchange:

"I am trying to determine whether or not Sterno puts out any appreciable amount of Carbon Monoxide (CO) while burning. I am putting some into my 72 hour kits. I understand adequate ventilation is necessary, but I specifically need to know about carbon monoxide emissions."

"Thank you for your inquiry. Sterno produces only CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) and H2O (Water) as a result of burning. It was designed to be safe indoors. As it is a fire-producing product, however, we would advise that children and pets be kept away to prevent accidental burns.
The Sterno Brand Team "

I would definately keep the dogs away from it, and I would not let it burn while sleeping and keep a window cracked as it will deplete oxygen. I keep 4 large cans in my truck kit. Each one will burn for 3 hours. No mixing or measuring; just pop the lid and light. They will boil water but can take up to 20 minutes to do so. All in all it is a very useful addition to a truck kit.

How about some simple hand warmers? You can put them close to the body and climb inside a sleeping bag.

"...Sterno produces only CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) and H2O (Water) as a result of burning..."

You know, I never stop learning something here. Thanks for that info on Sterno...

Since this type of verbiage seems to be pretty common, I have two comments in reply to:

"I've read that Sterno gives off enough heat to keep the temp above freezing in an auto.”

1. Any claim about attainable vehicle inside temperature is completely useless without reference to the allowable outside weather conditions under which this is possible. For example, it takes a lot more BTU production at -40 deg F than at +20 deg F to achieve the same temperature inside the vehicle.

2. More people die from hypothermia in “above freezing” conditions than any other. In other words, just because you may be able to get the inside temperature to, for example, +35 deg F, does not necessarily mean that one is out of the woods.

(I am not suggesting that we disagree on either of these points, but thought the clarification may be helpful.)

Canadian Medical Association Journal; Carbon monoxide poisoning from Sterno

Above is some good advise.

As I understand it, CO (Carbon Monoxide) is produced when fuels are burned with a poor supply of oxygen. Incomplete combustion. The sterno may indeed produce only CO2 and water when it is burning under ideal conditions, but here is what I would be careful about. If you burn the sterno in a vehicle where oxygen levels might become low, carbon monoxide may be produced because the sterno fuel is not burning completely.
Below is a list of sources that CAN produce CO.

Sources of carbon monoxide may include:
* boat motors
* cars
* charcoal grills
* cigarettes
* fireplaces (gas and wood) and wood-burning stoves
* gas ranges, ovens, dryers, water heaters, grills, furnaces and space heaters
* kerosene space heaters
* oil furnaces
* solid alcohol (such as Sterno Canned Heat)

smitty

Thank you, Frankie. I forwarded that site to the Sterno people with a request to comment or correct. I will post the results.

OTOH, as most warnings indicate, using something in a way that changes the conditions can cause unexpected results. Water can keep you alive or kill you, depending on circumstances.

Sue

I read years ago that it is best to use aluminum pots over alcohol-based heat sources.

Sue

Hmm. I don't see any chemical reason for that. My guess is that is because Al is a much better heat conductor than stainless, and with so little heat, you probably need all the help you can get...

-john

A battery powered CO detector would be a good thing to have in the vehicle if you're burning anything in there, or running the engine for heat.

How about one of those Mr. Heater "Portable Buddies"? They're not very expensive and run on small bottles of propane.

They work great. We have a couple in our motorhome for when we are boondocking and don't want to run out house batteries down too much. But they are a tad bulky...

Also, be aware that some types of sterno are now coming with a "wick". I don't know if this affects CO output or not, but it may be something to look out for. I use only the old style (plain gel) myself.

Any open-flame heat source will deplete oxygen. Adequate ventilation is vital. I crack two windows to provide cross ventilation.

I wanted one but heard that they don't work over 7000 feet. Is that the case?

When I was a kid I had one of those little sterno stoves and often used it to cook eggs and heat soup etc.

I found it cooked food well enough for a kid and I am sure a can of the stuff would produce enough heat to warm the inside of a tent or vehicle considerably higher than the outside air. Certainly at least as much as several candles which are quite effective.

Maybe it could be useful to drive off the dampness a bit before sleep, though of course if there is carbon Monoxide potential your sleep may be deeper than you'd like...

I just don't know, haven't been that high since we got them. Spent the first three months of this year at about 4400 ft, then all over Alaska, but not real high, and it was summer anyway. Right now we are sitting at 47 ft, and in a couple of weeks moving to an old Army Fort that is probably a little bit lower.

One good feature is that they have a low oxygen shut-off, so you can't do yourself in that way. Still, we only use then when we are awake. Saves propane that way also...

As I mentioned above, I contacted the Sterno website and asked about the Carbon Monoxide info in the above article by the Canadian medical journal. Here is the replyl:

"Thank you for your recent email regarding our World Class Sterno products.

This is Mike Siefert, Global Director for Quality and Technical Support of Sterno. Your email has been forwarded to me from our fine Customer Service Team for additional help to you.

Per your email request, please note:

On our Sterno website, www.Sterno.com , you will find many useful downloads, like Material Safety Data Sheets, usage & handling instructions, among other good information and safety charts. We use only the finest, cleanest, highest purity alcohols on the planet in the manufacturing of the Sterno family of products.

Regarding your comment on the website you listed below, I have submitted a rebuttal to their information. We have had independent test laboratory analyze our Sterno Brand Gel Chafing Fuel for between 50-60 compounds, and CO (carbon monoxide). Zero CO, or carbon monoxide is produced by burning Sterno Brand Gel Chafing Fuel for the entire 2+ hour burn. Attached you will find the independent laboratory analysis, and their report. Only CO2 carbon dioxide, is produced during combustion of our fuels. I do not know if their website will correct their reporting error, or not, or even post my letter which I submitted to them today. They may have been using a "Sterno-Like" product, but our Sterno Brand Fuel does not produce any carbon monoxide. Zero ppm measured down to 0.0000 mole percent.

Our retail product Sterno Brand gelled Canned Cooking Fuel will burn approximately for 2.5 hours, and is a canned, gelled alcohol product.

If you have additional particular questions regarding the use of our products, need additional technical information or BTU outputs, etc, please feel free to call or email me with any additional questions by reply, or at the number listed below.

Sterno, when used according to directions, usage instructions, and recommendations, is extremely safe by design. Sterno has been in the marketplace since the late 1800's. Safety is of strategic concern to us, and so is your individual safety. We design quality and safety, as much as humanly possible, into every single can we sell. We appreciate your feedback and comments.

At our website, we have safe handling and usage instruction sheets in .pdf file extensions, which one can download and print for reference. When you get to the above website, click on the "Foodservice Professional" link, then click on the "education and safety" link, then click the "fuel handling & safety tips" link. There you will find various methods of safe handling of Sterno fuel.

I sincerely hope this information has helped you. Thank you for your interest and patronage of Sterno Brand Fuels.

Please feel free to let me know if you need additional information and how to best further assist.

Best personal regards,

Mike Siefert"
Global Quality & Technical Support Director

The Sterno Group
Ofc: 903.223.3450 (Dial Country Code from outside US) 01
International Mobile: 903-293-8200(Dial Country Code from outside US) 01
MSDS's, handling, and usage instruction charts, are on the web at:

http://www.Sterno.com/

That was good of you, I think, to take the initiative and go straight to the source with the information in this thread. Also: Interesting reply regarding the carbon monoxide.

I'm thinking.... if a person burned enough Sterno.... say in a van... in the summertime.... and the resulting carbon dioxide were to solidify, hence forming dry ice.... would that have a cooling effect? Thinking (this type of thinking is just wrong!) a little more.... if Sterno were burned... in a van... in the wintertime.... would we be creating heat? ... or dry ice?

Ok. Enough thinking. Thanks for the email from Sterno.

Carbon monoxide can be created by the combustion of any carbon-containing fuel. The difference between the production of carbon dioxide (CO2) and carbon monoxide (CO) is the amount of oxygen (O2) available to the combustion process at any given moment.

If there is a sufficient supply of oxygen present (complete combustion), then two oxygen atoms are distributed to each carbon atom released in combustion, resulting in carbon dioxide (CO2).

If there is not sufficient oxygen present at any given moment, incomplete combustion will occur where only one oxygen atom will be available for some of the carbon atoms released, resulting in carbon monoxide (CO).

In some moments, there will be so little oxygen available that more carbon atoms are released than oxygen can bind with, resulting in a complete lack of combustion for some material, resulting in soot.

Now, I don't know about you, but I've never burned anything and not had some sort of black crap left over, so I damn well know that nothing burns completely. In fact, complete, full combustion for the entirety of any fuel is all but impossible. So it seems to me that Sterno's claims are faulty.

For more information, see the Wikipedia article on Combustion.

Well, I think Sterno is basing their claim on laboratory tests. In those tests, there must have been plenty of oxygen available while the Sterno was aflame. If your theory is correct, and it sure sounds reasonable to me, the only way they could measure zero carbon dioxide is if there weren't an instance during the testing when oxygen levels ran low, or below a certain (unknown) threshhold.

For our coleague fesigohl, who is probably right now sleeping in the van with 2 large, oxygen-sucking dogs, and with him sucking up his own share, we need to know how much oxygen must be available to save the three of them from carbon monoxide poisoning. He mentioned cracking a window, maybe two. Plus, there should be other intake ports where fresh air (and oxygen) are taken into the van.

Now, if someone were to use a carbon monoxide detection device, in a van, whilst burning Sterno, and the device were to register zero (or negative) for the presence of carbon monoxide, he would have some basis for refuting your claim, or at least making some oxygen variant arguement. If the device showed the presence of carbon monoxide, he could send that in to Sterno and say, "See! Your independant laboratory tests are b.s.!", or something silly like that.

I feel like I'm suffering from carbon monoxide poisoning right now.

Well from what I know through my chemistry experience, complete full combustion throughout an entire fuel source is all but impossible short of spraying pressurized pure oxygen onto the flames. Even then, I sincerely doubt that complete full combustion would occur.

In conclusion, I love to know exactly what their "lab test" comprised of.

Thank you for posting that. That pretty much confirms the experiences I've had with the stuff. It is not foolproof, but it's about as close as you can get with a portable open flame heat source. It is much safer than any propane heater or the like. About every other year during deer season somebody leaves a propane heater going in a camper or a tent, and they wake up dead from CO. I have yet to hear that happening from Sterno.

That's a good point about the generic sterno as well; it may well have a different composition. Another thing to watch out for.

With the relatively puny heat output of Sterno, wouldn't cracking a window result in a net loss of heat?

I guess the output is puny relative to a big 'ol space heater, but it's downright massive compared to a candle. I use one outdoors while hunting on cold mornings and it sure is nice to lean over. A vehicle gets toasty pretty quick, at least at the temps I am used to.

Hehe, ask the blind man, he saw it all through a knot hole in a chain-link fence...

I to am curious (and questioning of the claim), but I also wonder if one of their gelling compounds might not have easily liberated oxygen or if their processing might not have leave air bubbles in the stuff.

People who make this kind of thing have been hammered too many times in civil court to try to BS their lab data, though. Either that, or they are figuratively playing with fire. *frowns* I just don't see how anything can have 100% combustion, though.