The James Kim ordeal has gotten me to rethink my vehicle kits. The biggest gap in my plan has been food supply. I'm now thinking in terms of emergency rations - bars, etc. So, I would like input from the Forum. My initial specs are 21 days supply for two persons, 2000 calories per day (min.), palatable, balanced and compact. I would appreciate input on favorites, my specs or other issues. I have never used such rations (I've been a freeze-dried packs and beans-and-bacon kind of guy (depending on weight parameters) up 'til now)

Thanks for input..

I like to carry a few MRE's, a can or bags of nuts (mixed), a few small boxes of raisins, Granola bars, a few packs of instant grits (or oatmeal), some Slim Jim's, Old fashioned pork skins, little Hershey's chocolate bars, a few bottles of water, quite a few 1 gal sized ziplock bags. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
I know that if I keep a good knife with me, I can make do anywhere because my imagination is my only limiting factor!

Thanks for the feedback - sounds more like a picnic! <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

21 days of emergency rations for 2 people is going to take up some space even with their compact size. This may or may not be a problem for you depending on your vehicle.

The only reason I bring this up is that I've been thinking of doing the very same thing with the exception that I'm thinking in terms of supplies for one person instead of two for the immediate future, and I have a small car so this issue becomes critical when I calculate how much space I have to dedicate to other emercency items such as extra fuel, water, roadside emergency supplies, and more.

Anyway, Datrex Blue rations come in 3600 Kcal packages.

I've been thinking of PMing the Redflare guy to see what the size of Blue Rations are. I noticed that they carry them as well as the Datrex White Rations (2400Kcal) and Mayday 1200Kcal packs.

Don't get me wrong on space issues. I do have a back seat, and I can adjust the load depending on passengers, what gear I'm taking on a trip and so on. I'm not going to short change myself just so that I have a clear backseat to look nice. LOL

Overall, if it's a case of food to hold you over until rescue versus a TEOTWAWKI situation, I think Mr. Ritter's suggestion of a PLB as a means to be found as quickly as possible is a good idea. Such a thing would limit the amount of food you'd need I would think. I'm saving up for a PLB now, and going for the emergency rations as a stopgap measure.

Nicodemus,
I appreciate your analysis. I would be interested in the dimensions, if you can get them. I did see on the web site of the co. that the "white" ration is 500 gm. - I suppose net. That would be 1000 gm. per day times 21 days = 21,000 gm or 46.3 lbs. That is a lot, but doable. I own a full size Chev. sedan and PU w/FWD (I use a waterproof locker in rear for supplies). I think a food cashe of 46 lbs. would not take up too much of the available space.



I concur with your "get found" precepts, but plan for the worst. My current efforts spring from my analysis of the James Kim episode. Though I would not likely find myself in that situation (for a number of reasons), I have concluded that a robust food supply would do two principal things: (1) make waiting for rescue a whole lot more stress-free (my preferred scenario) or (2) enable me to be in a better nutritional state to effectuate escape (walk out). My current kit(s) are geared to long term self-sufficiency on food (snares, field expedients, firearms), but it now occurs to me that a food supply of compact and suffient duration has high redundancy - and comfort value! At my age, that last is a plus!

"...At my age..."

Those of us with "old" in our names do have to think about this walk out thing more than the young kids do. And of course the weight we could carry while doing that walking...

Ah, I found the post I was looking for. Duckear claims you need 300 calories per day to burn fat and not protein (muscle).

While it sure would be good to have more, it sounds like you could get by with less, but you at least want some.

-john

Datrex or MainStay. MUCH more compact that MREs. The MainStay bars aren't thirst-producing per se. I don't have personal experience with the Datrex. But of course, don't eat if you don't have adequate water.

I've had MainStay and Datrex.

Both taste great in my opinion, I ended up eating a whole datrex (3600cal) as snack around the house... it's light and flaky. tastes similiar to coconuts.
The mainstay was MUCH dryer (to me atleast, its spposeldy pretty moist, maybe due to the diff. texture/compound than datrex) (taste like lemon) and harder to eat without water.

With that said, I have a case of Mainstay at home but in the future plan to buy cases of Datrex instead. If you buy Datrex by the 3600cal packs it's cheaper than the other size that equals the same amount of energy.

I'd get a case of datrex 3600cal stick it in the trunk and call it good you could go a LONG TIME in a survival situation "waiting" eating them.

I wanted to add for vehicles I always carry the "4 pack" of powerbars. 2 chocolate and 2 peanut butter. I just grab them when I'm at WallyWorld or the like.
I recently had one after I'd worked all day and had no time for lunch and was getting very hungry, I new I was 1hr away with traffic so I figured it was time to jump into the stash <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
(Note about power bars: WHen it's cold they NEED to be warmed up to chew/eat)

And don't forget the Jello for hypothermia. That was a new one for me. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sue

I don't think what Duckear posted reflects accurate medical biochemistry. At 300 cal/day you will be in a state of progressive malnutrition. The fat stores may spare (not stop) protein catabolism early on, but with time (weeks) the person will develop signs of marasmus after about 1/3 of protein stores are depleted. The attached handout is what physicians in training will learn.

http://www.uic.edu/depts/mcam/mcbc/lect_2004/lecture_41_43.pdf

Any chance you are willing to post a summary? :-)

-john

My point was that muscle protein catabolism isn't simply stopped at a certain calorie number. Yes, it is spared (less used) with adaptation to less food, to a certain point. That point will depend on the individual.

Any food is better than no food, as long as you have water also, as Doug's nutrition page states. A rough estimate for a person to maintain their body weight at rest is (body weight x 10 = calories/day needed to maintain body weight at rest). With physical exertion that number goes up. If you lose some weight, so what. Most of us need to anyway.

Slim Jims are packed with fat and protien

The have a Beef+Cheese thing that weigh's like 2 oz and is 150 cals. 2/3 fat and 1/3 protien. You see them near the checkout at walmart for about 85 cents

We used to drink hot jello while climbing mountains in the winter. It was like a quick energy boost. These days though, there are probably much better alternatives. Ah, the good ole days of hot cherry jello!!!

The liferaft rations in the Coast Guard were these compressed cornflake affairs with the consistency of cardboard and 4 soft candy packs with green,yellow,red and orange. This brownshoe ( aviation rating) decided he enjoyed them and secretely ate 3 C-130 supplies of the things in one week. He went to hospital with severe constipation. I dated this girl I really liked. She made tuna casserole, a meal I eat with reluctance, after 30 years of consuming a wretched recipe at an aunt's who relished the dish. This version was even worse, and was one of several reasons the relationship failed. A key component of any survival ration is to survive the meal. If you've never consumed a MRE, or sat down to Slim Jims, Twinkies and Cherry Jello an allready stressfull survival situation is no time for culinary exploration!

Well, that is what I learned during my surgical internship, but that was about 15 years ago, so it may have changed. Original work goes back to WWII studies. Most nutritional data, esp what is taught to physicians, is how to supply enough nutrition to be healing ie anabolic state. Life raft rations are to allow controlled starving. Not much call for controlled starving research in the traditional medical literature.

I very well may be wrong and would like info or links to correct my errors.


ETA

I reviewed the link, but my chemistry degree and my first years of medical school are a bit cloudier than I care to admit. While it all looks familiar, I don't have the time nor interest right now to wade through all that right now.


<img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Old Soldier - <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Geez - you must be as old as I am! I used to hike, many moons ago, with a guy that lived mostly on Jell-o and beef jerky for days at a time! But then again I mostly lived on beer and raisins! Ah, to be young again.

10-4 Chris! Loud and clear - I'm already thinking I need a mixed bag. Some of this and that. Maybe some of this Datrex (once I've tried some!) plus MREs (BTDT) plus some preferred comfort food (jerky, nuts, grits, chocolate) and FIBER! (All-Bran, etc.)

Todd - thanks for your input. I'm gonna try a few Datrex and see how I make out.

Did you have to go and say that?! <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> You're right, though. I could probably reduce my specs on this. However, going to a 300 cal. plan doesn't sound too cool. Maybe a compromise around 1000 cal. with some comfort food thrown in sounds a lot better to me. At some point it seems to me that if you're going to cache some food in a vehicle, might as well plan a little heavier. I also plan on rotating the stocks, too, anyway.

Never mind - I've decided just to walk out! (Just kidding - STAY PUT!)

The blue Datrex rations packs are about 4-3/8" x 3-5/8" x 2-1/2".

wouldn't canned black beans and packages of vacuum packed pre-cooked rice cover all three areas; carbs, protein, and fiber? i know rice and beans gives me great energy for hiking.

Okay, one more time down the path:

2 oz of pemmican delivers at least 500 Kcal. So at 2000 Kcal/day/person for two people for 21 days would mean 21 lbs of pemmican (pure fat, by the way, would equal about 20 lbs, which is as concentrated a calorie load by weight as you can achieve). Comparatively speaking, the equivalent in Datrex blue rations would weigh over 35 lbs.

That said, there's a lot you can do to boost the nutritional value and pallatablity of pemmican, including adding dried fruits, nuts, seeds, vegetables, meat, and even milled grain products. It satisfies the appetite efficiently, and depending on what you put in it and how it is served up can be enjoyed hot or cold. I've had finicky young girls that turn their noses up at a lot of regular dishes willing to consume a few pemmican variations. I've used pemmican to mask "natural" additives that would not otherwise be consumed.

The possibilities of pemmican are extensive and versatile. While not high on the list of everyday foods I'd want to consume for the very reasons that make it such a good survival food, I'd still pack it along before datrex rations, MREs, power bars, or just about any other pre-packaged over the counter item I can think of. They are also more economical than anything else you're likely to come up with, and properly packaged should hold up for a good 6 months at least in car bag, the backpack, or the desk drawer. In the freezer they will last forever.

This is a hands on solution that you just can't duplicate on the market. This is still just one of those super deluxe ETS mega deals that just begs to be added to that big list of have to's. I rate making your own pemmican right up there with learning a bow drill, or how to sharpen your knife, or turn a plastic garbage bag into your own personal mountain forest Chateau.

Yes, I am relentless. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

See this emergency rations thread
as well

OK - I'm now leaning toward "variety is the spice of life." Morale is important in a long range scenario and pure Datrex, etc. may be a bad idea! The pemmican (I've had it before but wouldn't reach for it in preference to a hershey's bar!) and jerky are on my list. I guess we're coming around to Horace Kephart ("Camping and Woddcraft") - my main man. Read it if you haven't!

So, my next projects involve: making up a new vehicle kit menu, making some jerky and pemmican, trying Datrex, putting in all together and reporting back.

BTW, sorry I didn't pick up on that other thread. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> One more reply to Benjamin - RE: pure fat.

Read Phillip Henry Dana's "Two Years Before the Mast" (great book). In one episode he describes the Russian sailing ships in California (long time ago!) that shipped out cattle hides. Apparently, they rendered out the fat and packed it into hide bags. They mostly lived on that and, as Dana had it, celebrated once a week by cooking the bags and eating them! Could I wrap them in aluminum foil? Keep car clean and use for signalling.

Seriously, thanks for the input. You brought me back to Earth.

Thanks for the info on the size of a Datrex Blue Ration. It's appreciated!

Hey, we used to do the same thing while ice fishing in Minnesota!

-Blast