Hi, guys! My husband and I are fairly new to the survival prep, and have been working on lighting, first aid, communication, safety, water purification, long term food storage, etc. I have a few questions that I can't seem to find the answers to:<br><br>1. What is the "shelf-life" of lamp oil and kerosene, unopened, and in climate control?<br>2. Where on earth do I buy kerosene in 5 gallon quantities? Tried our Super Walmart and the local camping supply stores, but no luck.<br>3. Your recommendations for semi-automatic rifle for people who are new to guns. Something I can use as well as my husband (for protection).<br>4. Does kerosene need special storage conditions?<br><br>Thanks so much for your input! I have learned quite a bit here already, but I am sure that I will have more questions later!<br><br>Barb G

Barb, Stricter shipping regulations extincted 5 gallon kerosene units @ 5 years ago. Unless you can arrange a bulk purchase with a supplier it's the one gallon units or nothing. All fuels will degrade over time with varnish and carbon buildup. There are fuel stabiliser products on the market that can be added. www.majorsurplusnsurvival.com and www.priproducts.com can provide more information. I've kept Dietz railroad lanterns full with positive burning up to 2 years max. Kerosene has potential health risks; both in storage and use. Firearm use is a very emotionally and politically charged discusion. You should ask yourself what exactly it is you intend to shoot and why. Instruction is vital. I certainly wouldn't use a semi auto to start with. The NRA certifies instructors and is a good base of information. Emergency preparation ( "survival" has some negative social connotations) is a popular activity as a quick websearch will show. Avoid the political and philosphical baggage and the information is available.

Barb - Welcome to Preparedness Awareness!<br>Two excellent references for broadening your knowledge are:<br>http://www.beprepared.com/Insight/insight.html <br> AND<br>http://millennium-ark.net/News_Files/Hollys.html<br><br>Sorry about the long url's but couldn't figure out how to insert the hyperlink. My normal procedure didn't work. <br>Happy preparation and hunting.<br> <br>

<< Stricter shipping regulations... >> Grrrr! I've run into that with a NUMBER of ridiculous innocous items lately - I have some very choice comments to make, but they are political, so I'll refrain...<br><br>However - I am just about certain that we can get kerosene in 5 gallon containers at a number of local retailers. And I AM certain that I can get it bulk (my container or theirs) from a local "Oil Company" by walking in and asking for it. I'm sure you're right, Chris, about having it trucked to you - hazardous cargo shipping charges would be outrageous. But I think it's readily available at retailers who stock it.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

Welcome, Barb<br><br><< What is the "shelf-life" of lamp oil and kerosene, unopened, and in climate control? >><br><br>To the best of my knowledge, kereosene is very stable in long term storage. Diesel and gasoline is NOT. I don't believe that any special precautions need to be taken for long-term storage of kerosene. Diesel has special problems in long term storage and gasoline has others. Both need stabilizers and both need to have minimumal (ideally none) contact with the atmosphere (O2 and H2O cause various degradations to those fuels). Keep your kerosene safe from accidental ignition and it probably will be fine longer than you care. Anyone know for certain otherwise?<br><br>I'd guess that "lamp oil" is too broad a category of possible fuels to answer your question, so I''m not going to venture a guess on that.<br><br><< Where on earth do I buy kerosene in 5 gallon quantities? >><br><br>Not to be trite, but... wherever they sell it in 5 gallon containers - see my previous reply to Chris. Perhaps you live in an area where not many folks regularly use kerosene space heaters...? In any event, if you cannot find it locally, try your local oil products distributors. If there is a local demand, they buy tanker-car loads / barge loads of various fuels, solvents, etc. and often (usually) will package for you in 55 gallon containers, for example. With appropriate commercial containers you could then re-package OR leave it sealed in the drum(s) until needed. 55 gallon drums are not too hard to maneuver around (YMMMV) or get in and out of pick ups, hand-cranked pumps are reasonably priced, and there's probably little or no temptation to store a DRUM of fuel in the house... smaller containers have a higher "temptation" value towards inappropriate storage IMHO.<br><br>Actually, I can get kerosene "from the pump" locally at at least one local distributor, now that I think about it - that's how my buddy keeps his salamander fueled for his garage. Two 5 gallon blue jugs labeled kerosene and it's like getting lawnmower gas at the filling station. But there has to be a local demand or (of course) they won't stock it.<br><br><< Your recommendations for semi-automatic rifle for people who are new to guns. Something I can use as well as my husband (for protection). >><br><br>I don't believe there is an intelligent answer I can give to that question and if there is, maybe Chris should move that part of the discussion to the Campfire Forum? (Just a thought...). BTW, my petite wife can and and does shoot any and all firearms found in our house, so aside from being able to reach the controls safely, I don't ascribe to anything other than good sense with regard to a weapon that either husband or wife could use - it suits the purpose or not, that's all. <br><br>So... what are you considering being prepared for protection from? How much time are you willing to commit to 1) formal training and 2) regular practice? What is your environment - urban, rural, housing density, type of construction, etc - lots of questions. Maybe some answers - no, suggestions - from me and others later <grin>. Sorta like asking what kind of sports car you should buy to go to the grocery store before you've taken driver's education... well, sorta like that.<br><br>HTH. Again, welcome.<br><br>Tom

Barb,<br><br>Welcome aboard!<br><br>Regarding your questions:<br><br>1. I don't know, but it's a long, long, time. I found an unopened one gallon can of kerosene some time ago that dated back at LEAST 20 years. It worked fine.<br><br>2. Some (most around here) service stations have large above ground kerosene tanks. Let your fingers do the walking, and then get as much as you want. <br><br>3. Ruger Mini-14. Assuming you mean protection from people, rather than LARGE animals. They're light-weight, somewhat ergonomic, very durable, very reliable, reasonably accurate, use cheap (comparatively) ammo, and are cheaper than the AR-15 clones that abound nowadays. If you had posted 3 weeks ago, I could have let you have a used one cheap. Why the insistence on an auto? Please also think hard about Chris and Tom's comments concerning training, SAFETY, philosophical issues, etc... I tend to gloss over those, having long ago settled such concerns for myself, but they are IMPORTANT considerations.<br><br>4. Nope, just use common sense. Sealed, durable containers stored away from flame sources, temperature extremes and children.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy<br><br>

A few kerosine links to click:<br><br>Clear-Lite<br><br>Safety Central<br><br>Oil Distributor Example<br><br>

<< ... I tend to gloss over those, having long ago settled such concerns for myself >><br><br>Andy,<br><br>I'd call you an old reprobate, but then, you're not old... yet <grin>.<br><br>Tom

Tom,<br><br>Reprobate!?...... I like that. That's what my wife, and some very good (and very Christian) friends jokingly (most of the time) call me.<br><br>Not old yet, huh? I hit thirty this year graybearded one, and anyway, it's not the years, it's the mileage.....not that you don't have me beat there also :)<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

I will touch on the guns since I live in a part of the world where you are considered "strange" if you dont carry one. :)<br>You specified a semi-auto rifle. Someone mentioned a mini-14. Its a fantastic gun although it wouldnt make my personal list of survival arms. I would like you to give thought to two particular weapons before you cash out a few hundred dollars. Consider the Remington 870 pump shotgun in 12 guage and a Marlin lever action carbine in 357 Magnum. Ive got some reasons behind these choices. Both of these are close to medium range weapons.<br> A 12 guage pump is about the most versatile (and deadly) close range ( to 40 or so yards) weapon you could buy. With the proper load, this gun will take anything on the North American continent. Ammo can be bought to do nearly anything you can imagine. (Flares, bean bags, bird loads, rubber balls, lead slugs, low recoil, you name it) My wife weighs 120 lbs and handles standard 2-3/4" 00 buckshot from this gun without flinching. Anything larger than that is too much for self defense anyway. This is my first choice if I only had one long gun. <br> My second choice would be a Marlin lever action .357 magnum carbine. This choice stems from the advice I give people on handguns which goes: "If you are only going to own one handgun, then get a 4" barrel .357 magnum revolver. Its the most versatile handgun around, its nearly idiot proof, and you can afford to practice with it." Stands to reason that I would suggest a rifle that shoots the same bullets. This gun WILL kill a deer at ranges you are likely to see in a forest. This gun is a pussycat to shoot nomatter what load you put in it. I've let many "non gun types" shoot this gun and they have all walked away with a smile on their face. <br> OK, I want to talk about high capacity semi-auto weapons in general. Im not against them. My wife carries a .45 auto for Petes sake. Its just that hollywood and some very stupid people in politics have painted them as being some sort of ultra-destructive super-weapon. They are far from it. Most of them are a compromise between controlability, weight, price, etc. The truth is that animals dont shoot back and if you cannot resolve a self-defense issue in less than six rounds you are in deep trouble anyway. Semi-auto's require much more maintenence to function properly and are usually intolerant of not being clean. Both guns that I am suggesting are insensitive to all but the dirtiest of conditions. There are no O-rings or plungers or gas ports or anything like that to screw up. Both guns have been proven for many decades and the Marlin has been in production since the 1890's. The design is that good. <br> Both of these guns are expensive compared to the competition. This is an area, though, where you get what you pay for. You would be able to give these guns to your grandchildren and they will still work. How much money is your life worth?<br> Have I muddled up the issue enough?

I've got a wierd relationship with guns. I know this might generate a lot of a abuse, but I really don't believe they have much self defense value in the ordinary sense. You truly have to have a tremendous amount of skill to use them effectively. That means an investment of time, money and training. There's a reason why the police practice so much, and as we recently witnessed with the rescue of the two abducted girls, two officers put about seven shots home, at least two at point blank range. It sounds like nearly three times that number didn't reach their mark. The perpetrator discharged his weapon but thankfully didn't hit a thing. He was a bad guy -- an experienced criminal who unlike most of us was pumped up, ready, willing and motivated to take human life. <br><br>Having said all that, if you had the money the Springfield is an excellent time tested accurate rifle. Frankly I've always been an advocate of the "Bang Factor." The sound of any weapon discharging -- or even cocking-- is enough to scare away man or beast. I have a Mauser 48A, 8mm, cheap, reliable, and very, very loud. <br><br>You might want to consider a Ruger 10/22. Very reliable .22 caliber semi-auto. A Remmington 700 is a wonderful accurate bolt action. Both are readily available at Wal-Mart. Virtually the same 700 was used as a sniper rifle in Vietnam. One semi auto handgun worth considering might be a Makarov. It is extremely easy to maintain, has only 27 or so parts, and the 9mm Mak rounds are very inexpensive to ecnourage practice, although not generally stocked at most stores.<br><br>Just worth saying again. I enjoy shooting, but leave my guns locked up. For self defense my softball bat would be my second choice, my first choice would be to jump out the window and run to the neighbors house to call the police.

10/22 is an excellent choice if you eliminate the combat factor. Ruger really does make some fantastic guns.

"Your recommendations for semi-automatic rifle for people who are new to guns. Something I can use as well as my husband (for protection)."<br><br>Barb, first of all, i dont recommend a semi-automatic rifle for people who are new to guns. Why? because semi-automatic weapons require lots of practice to yield correctly, and in the wrong hands, you may end up shooting the wrong person. <br><br>Second, if it is for in home use, its much much easier for you to use a pistol. place your self in the situation. in my honest opinion, a pistol would come out on top and a close quaters battle.<br><br>third, rifles pack a punch. now, in the case of killing your enemy, thats always a good thing. but, Do you and your husband have kids? how bout close nieghbors? you dont want that same bullet to go through window of your house and shoot out your neighbors tv (or much much worse),or your kids? Of course, you could almays get custom load bullets that pack less of a punch, but thats more expensive (i think...) and for you to do it your self would cost an additional 300-400 dollars just for a reloading machine. not to menchin the powder, primers, shells, bullets, and time!<br><br>Recall the california bank robery (or what ever it was) , with the three body armoured thiefs and "semi-automatic" rifles, bullets were found im pretty sure, BLOCKS away from the scene.<br><br>fourth, its much easier and FASTER to line up the sites one a pistol, then it would be aiming a rifle.<br><br>Please disregard every action movie you see with guns in them, thats NOT how real guns are used, and NOT how they preform.<br><br>Its a much better decision to maybe, take a course, familiarize your self and your husband with firearms.<br>But im only 16, so heres my dads word of advice (but more commonly heard from my mothers mouth) THERE NOT TOYS!(especially the semi automatic ones!)<br><br><br>But, after you familiarize yourself, a small Ruger SP101, or the like, would be a nice choice. long trigger pull to let you make split second decisions, and a large caliber that is sure to stop the attacker, but not take out the nieghbors tv with him.<br><br>and try not to kill anyone! (as my mother used to yell!)

Barb,<br><br>I think we need to know a little more about your circumstances to make recommendations re guns to you: e.g., <br><br>1. From what do you seek protection: burglar in your home, assassin, mob, gang, or others<br><br>2. In what venue: bedroom, saferoom, house, apartment, ranch, etc.<br><br>3. Do you live in a populous or unpopulated area?<br><br>4. Your size, physical condition, & age?<br><br>Generally I tend to be less enthusiastic about using .22s & bolt guns for self protection, but your individual circumstances could conceivably make them desireable. We have some good friends who had a problem with burglars at their apartment. They made a well-reasoned decision to get a 20 gauge pump shotgun for potential defensive use for use by the wife when the husband was working nights & 24-hour shifts. Although they were not regular shooters, the wife grew up using a 20 ga. pump hunting with her father. She was very comfortable with one, & therefor her choice. To make good choices of guns, you should try to get some personal experience in using them. Some ranges rent shotguns & handguns, although I have not heard of any renting rifles. Perhaps you could go shooting with friends using their guns at target ranges. Also, shooters tend to be friendly & helpful to others seeking advice, so don't be bashful.<br><br>Many spouses are physically dimensioned very differently. Consequently what is a great & comfortable fit for your husband may not be for you, and vice versa. I am 6'2', have a size 17 neck & 34 sleeve. My wife on the other hand is a petite 5'2" who has ... commensurate other dimensions.<br>Guess what, her long guns have short stocks & mine have long stocks. I can contort my body enough to shoot them (although not easily or comfortably), but she really can't fit my long guns well enough to shoot them adequately. Handguns have similar problems. Differences in vision can also be a problem. So do some shooting & find out what fits you & what seems comfortable to each of you.<br><br>Do be sure to get education & training in the correct way to shoot, gun safety, & the moral, ethical, and legal ramifications of owning & using guns generally & especially in your legal jurisdiction, not to mention what happens if you use a gun on another person. Any interpersonal use of a gun will have consequences for which you need to be prepared. The NRA & possibly your state's gun associations have many materials on these subjects. Also some training courses are available from reputable, for-profit businesses. Gun clubs may have competitions which will help you train.<br><br>You may also want to do an "Advanced Search" on this website re: gun, pistol, shooting, etc. We've had a lot of discussion re defensive guns in the last 2 mos. or so. Be sure to look under the name: robb or Robb. He raised a good discussion in July re choice of handguns & shotguns.<br><br>We look forward to hearing more from you.<br><br>Good luck.<br><br>John

Barb, welcome. First off, opinions are like....well, you get the point.<br><br>Firearms are a very personal thing and comfort levels play a key role in determining what's right for you and your husband. Also $ plays an important factor. For a decent pistol you could easily buy a 12 ga for your husband and a 20 ga for yourself. I truly think that john baker and AyersTG summed it up very well. <br><br>http://www.equipped.org/us_primer.htm<br><br>There is no one answer, no perfect gun. Guns are tools. I'm amazed, truly amazed, at some of the responses so far. Lethal force is a serious subject with many inuendos. <br><br>If you would like to talk privately, feel free to private message me.<br><br>And MKII, though I truly appreciate your eagerness to learn and share, there are a couple issues.<br><br>"Second, if it is for in home use, its much much easier for you to use a pistol. place your self in the situation. in my honest opinion, a pistol would come out on top and a close quaters battle."<br>For CQB one of my pisols would almost be my last choice, (especially in my own home) second only to a large caliber bolt action scoped rifle.<br><br>"fourth, its much easier and FASTER to line up the sites one a pistol, then it would be aiming a rifle"<br>No it's not. Shotguns are very intuitive, have longer barrels, and have the advantage of buckshot or birdshot.<br><br>"a small Ruger SP101, or the like"<br>I do not recommend a large caliber revolver with a small frame and a very short barrel for anyone new to firearms.

Clarification of a couple of things in my previous post:<br><br>1. I'm unsure of WHY kerosine seems to be stable enough for long term storage, as it's just another distillate - somewhere between gasoline and diesel, IIRC. It MAY be related to the ordinary uses of kerosine in the home, and perhaps if one is contemplating kerosine as a substitute for diesel engine fuel or as jet fuel, there MIGHT be stability issues. Or not. But anecdotal evidence is that it's much more stable than other fuels in long term storage.<br><br>2. I'm neither discouraging nor encouraging y'all from owning a firearm(s). You asked a loaded question (pun intended). Everyone who suggested "this" or "that" so far has given you reasonable suggestions, personal preferences or not. As Cooper says, the best gun for self-defense is the one you have with you... however, I think that we can suggest better choices for you to consider if we know a little about what your perceived needs/concerns are.<br><br>And for my aquaintances who HAVE made some suggestions already, my comments on some of the comments:<br><br>The 36s (357 magnum, 9mmx19, etc) are among the very worst IN REAL HOUSES for over-penetration of walls. Even recent advances in expanding bullet technologies have consistently been fairly problematic in that regard. I'm not saying they are bad, just pointing out that little tidbit. <br><br>I am NOT a fan of the 223/5.56 for self-defense, however, in REAL HOUSES, it has consistently been among the very "best behaved" with regard to over-penetration IF the shooter is using 55 grain or lighter thin-skinned bullets ("varmint" bullets). It will, of course, pass through at least one wall on a miss, of course.<br><br>The best close-range stopper in commonly used firearms is unquestionably a 12 gauge shotgun, with 16 and 20 gauge close enough to toss in as well. And just as unquestionably, at close range, even a load of very small #9 shot WILL shoot through a conventional interior wall-board covered stud wall. Just one (charge spread and energy loss prevents penetration of the next wall across the room). It may or may not pass through a "real" plastered wall - usually not on a 3 or 4 coat plastered wall. Knocks the snot out of the off side, but that's about it.<br><br>So is it a bad thing if what you are using passes through a wall? Well, that sort of depends on what's one the other side of the wall - a good guy or a bad guy.<br><br>More later if you are interested.<br><br>Tom

Once you've considered the legal and moral aspects of owning and using a firearm and still want to own one, then you need to determine what the main purpose for the gun will be and where it will more than likely be used. <br><br>It was recommended to myself and my wife by a friend of ours that if we are looking for a multi-purpose weapon that could be used to fetch grub, or could be used for recreation (I don't consider the taking of any life as recreational) or in the event of, can be used for close quarters self defense, that the shotgun would be the weapon of choice and I have to agree with him. My shotgun is a Remington 870 express in 12ga and my wifes is a smaller and lighter Mossburg 500 in 20ga. The combined purchase price of both weapons was less than the cost of my .45acp handgun. If the chips are on the line and I need the best all around defense weapon, I'll reach for my 870 every time. Just the sound of a round being chambered is enough to make a would be attacker rethink his intentions and situation. For hunting, you couldn't have a more versatile weapon as a shotgun. Just make sure to remove all the pellets before sinking your teeth into the pheasant or rabbit you've prepared. It's heck on the teeth if you don't. ;o) <br><br>For a good all around survival weapon, I don't think you could do much better than a .22 rifle, well, except for maybe one of the combo guns available today. I like the idea of a .22lr and 12ga combo gun but havn't done anything about it yet. Anyway, I like both the Ruger 10/22 and the Marlin semi-autos. Both are inexpensive as compared to many other similar rifles with the Marlin being almost downright cheap and from my experience, they are both reliable and accurate. Unless you live in California with their .05 per round tax, .22 ammo is dirt cheap, a 500 round box is relatively easy to carry and will provide lots of tablefare to a practiced shooter. <br>

I have a good friend who is a handloading, number crunching, ballistic expert type person. I think he liked firing howitzers a little too much in Vietnam. But anyway, he and I recently took wet magazines and tested a multitude of 38's and 357's. Wet magazines are not flesh and bone but you have to have some sort of test medium at times. Nearly every single 357 jacketed hollowpoint we tried plugged up and penetrated at least one foot. Most all were found intact with little mushrooming if any. <br>The big surprise was the old FBI load. (38 special, + P, 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint) It consistently penetrated 4 inches with a perfect mushroom. At that point we realized why the forensics people have been saying this round was so deadly. (Its also a joy in high speed double taps as it has low recoil. It produces a bit too much smoke, but has almost no flash at night)<br>Having that said; dont think Im pushing 36 caliber rounds as the do all end all. Im just stating what our tests showed. My personal experience confirms the overpenetration of 357s. Every animal over 50 lbs that I have shot with a 357 had to be run down because the bullet made a 36 caliber hole completely through them. Thats not very efficient from a self defense standpoint.<br>The pattern that I see is that the really effective handgun defense rounds are usually the heavy, soft bullets moving at 850-900 fps regardless of caliber. <br>I suppose that I will touch on the "other" 36 cals out there since Im on the subject. Given the existence of the 45acp, I have no use for them.

Barb,<br><br>Are you having fun yet, or are you pulling out clumps of hair and screaming, "Too much information!"<br><br>I'm feeling I should apologize for simply giving you staight answers to yours questions, particularly the gun question. As you can see, there are many viewpoints on this subject. One thing I want to make clear though is this: a semi-auto rifle is not an appropriate "inside the home" weapon. Indoors, you will be much better served with either a handgun or a shotgun. See previous posts on shotguns for more details. I should have asked what you would be protecting yourself from.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

Thanks to all that have posted! About the gun issue, a semi-auto. was recommended by several retailers where we have been looking, that is why we wanted to get independent opinions from someone NOT trying to sell to us. The one opinion that I would truly trust locally (my wonderful cousin) is a cop/special forces reservist who is poking around in or near Iraq right now, and we don't know when he will be back. (Please keep him in your prayers!)<br><br>We live in a semi-urban area, an upscale community (in the poor section, fortunately!), that is surrounded by woods and isolated homesteads. I believe that our area would be a target for looting in the worst case scenario, even though our home is older and smaller, and may be passed up.<br><br>We live in the deep south (on the Gulf) so heating oil is not a common thing around here. I will check the types of sources that you guys suggested for the kerosene. I truly appreciate it. <br><br>Bless you and thank all of you for the food for thought on weapons. That is the toughest decision we are heading toward for me, but I don't want to be stupid about it either.<br><br>Barb G

OK, deep south. I was so afraid you were in California or New England and all gun comments would be for naught. We still experience a level of freedom in the south that doesnt exist in certain parts of this country. I'll bet I get attacked for that comment. :)<br>I havent really spent any time around Memphis so I cannot speak for that area, but kerosene is available along the rest of the Tennessee border at nearly any gas station. In Georgia I have seen it as far south as Cartersville. Thats about halfway between Chattanooga and Atlanta. That may be usefull if you come north sometime.

Gator, i was talking about semi-automatic rifles. i agree with you on shotguns, but i was mainly concerned about any other loved ones that may be in her house, a kid might get up and go to the bathroom or something, and end up in the line of fire.<br><br>only reason i menchened the sp101, is because it has a real long trigger pull, and in that time you can decide wether or not you should shoot the person, or wether or not its a bad guy. but i draw the line here, no more talk for me :)<br>

Rhawn - Heck, keep talking. This is all discussion so far; no flames are in sight.

Barb, I'm glad you gathered at least some food for thought. It sounds like your cousin will have good insight as to the best tool for the job. (I will keep him in my thoughts) Also, the clarifications you made will make suggestions much easier. And as far as the title to your post, (stupid question), there are no stupid questions just stupid answers. Just joking. In all seriousness, it is these "stupid questions" that I believe everyone learns at least a little from.! Thanks for asking it.<br><br>Ade, well said! I instantaneously envisioned barb launching 223's through six apartment walls from her ranch rifle.. I like the way Kavanaugh summarized it, ie. the pavlovian bell, that we're all guilty of reacting to at some time or another. <br><br>MKII, Thanks for the clarification on your thoughts regarding rifle vs. shotgun. I reread my post and realized it sounded condescending. My bad, that was not my intention.<br><br>And you are right, with cheap construction and powerful ammo these days, overpenetration is a serious concern. It doesn't matter if it's a shotgun, handgun, or rfile, the ammunition must match it's desired result and enviiornment.<br><br>"only reason i menchened the sp101, is because it has a real long trigger pull, and in that time you can decide wether or not you should shoot the person"<br>First off I love the SP101 it is indeed a great revolver. However, I'm guilty of finding fault in the previous quotation. IMO you should not have your finger on the trigger unless you intend to kill whatever the gun is pointed at, period. A surefire flashligt (E2) by the bedside will eliminate the need to guess what is going bump in the night.<br><br>It is easy to criticize the opinions of others, without offering opinions of your own. So here goes, if you only could get 1 gun and don't want to break the bank, I recommend the mossberg 590. It holds 9 shells and has a 20 inch barrel. Easy enough to move around the bedroom with but also offers enough distance. If you need to shoot farther than the 590 can offer than you probably shouldn't be shooting at all. You can find them used for fairly cheap. Surefire also makes an integral forend, (the place where you actually "cock" the shotgun) which provides illumintation. Avoid non-necessary additions like heat shield (testosterone shield), pistol grip, side saddle, bandoliers, etc. Also avoid magnum loads at first. Try to get proper training with a 12ga. before you make your purchase, that way you'll know if the 12ga is too much gun. I'm sure it will not be as I've taught many small framed, (@100lbs), females to shoot very well. In fact women are usually better shooters after proper training than most men. I guess that all men already "know" how to shoot and this makes it more difficult to break their bad habits and rituals. Good luck and shoot safe.<br><br>Also barb, there are many non-violent ways to deter looters.<br><br>GATOR<br>

Yep, truly deep South! Close to the Coast, and trying to stay away from the pesky mosquitos, the trucks spraying poison (not sure whether it is killing us or the mosquitos!). Some of you asked: I am tall (5'10"), 160 lbs, and work out with weights. And, as far as guns go, the last gun I handled was a revolver back in my single and alone days. I believe that we will lean toward a shotgun for hubby and a .22 rifle for me (either that, or a 20 guage shotgun), but plan trips to a range to try some out first (and plan to be educated also).<br><br>Am grateful for the replies, especially the thoughtfulness, guys. Yes, it does matter to me whether the rounds will go through a wall. I like my neighbors alot, and wouldn't want to be responsible for hurting them. If the worst case scenario happened, we want protection (hopefully unneeded) and a way to provide food, since we do live with woods around us. Heck, we even have doves that come to our feeder, not to mention the wild rabbits and deer (we live in a protected zone . . . and the animals know it!!) ;D<br><br>Was advised to check the old filling stations and co-ops locally for kerosene. One more reason to stock up, with it so hard to find! I was told that the building supply store stocked it "in season". You would think that hurricane season was considered "in season". <br><br>Oh, well. Thanks again so much!! You are all greatly appreciated, as we try to educate ourselves and begin making wise decisions.<br><br>Barb G<br><br>

There are no dumb questions, but there are dumb answers. In the spirit of celebrating Male Answer Syndrome, I offer the following in the hope it's not considered dumb. <br><br>Many emergency situations actually preclude the use of firearms, and as such they become yet another valuable and potentially dangerous item left behind. Consider storing your firearm in a pushbutton combination lock safe, and recording the serial number for insurance and other records. <br><br>All that said, I would not consider a self-loading rifle to be an optimum choice for an emergency firearm. As mentioned before by others, rifle ammunition is just too dangerous to use for defense in dense living environments. Also, practice with a bolt action rifle is very necessary before mastering a semi-auto. <br><br>I also personally would not choose a shotgun, as shot patterns become wider over distance and this increases the chances of your hitting things you are not aiming at. People who prefer shotguns try to get around this by loading birdshot in a home defense shotgun. However, birdshot may not incapacitate a potential attacker.<br><br>Hence I recommend a handgun for home and camp/trail defense. If you choose a revolver, you're pretty much limited to types that chamber .38 Special+P, .357Magnum, or .44 Special caliber ammunition, and to 5" or shorter barrel lengths. The previously mentioned Ruger SP101 is anexcellent choice. <br><br>For a self-loading handgun, your choices are limited to 9mm Luger, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. Virtually all pistols in this class have barrel lengths of between 3" and 4", and that's just fine. The Sigarms P239 is an excellent choice, available in the first three calibers mentioned above.<br><br>I some longterm outdoor scenarios, I can see the need for a rifle, in which case a bolt action or lever action model will do fine. To save on logistics, consider a .357 magnum revolver paired with a lever action rifle in the same caliber, such as the Marlin 1894 Carbine. <br><br>If weight is a factor, a longer barreled revolver in .45 Long Colt can be used for defense against bears and hostile people in the field as well as for hunting, but makes a poor choice for home defense. Modern .45 LC loads are essentially magnum cartridges. The .44 Magnum also falls in this category. <br><br>Above all, learn not only how to handle a gun safely, but to shoot accurately. <br><br>Hope this helps.

" but plan trips to a range to try some out first (and plan to be educated also)."<br><br><br>Best move you could make.

Barb,<br><br>It sounds like you're approaching this matter very wisely. Your choices will help you to learn shooting & related subjects well. As your knowledge, experience, skill, & ability grow, you will be able to develop a sound defensive battery, the capability of using properly, & the knowledge of when & how to utilize it.<br><br>If your husband is of similar size, you may even be able to use each others guns well.<br><br>Keep on asking question.<br><br>Good luck,<br><br>John

Wow. I'm sure the poor lady is completely overwhelmed.<br><br>It's evident that we have far more people who feel qualified to speak up on firearms than we used to. I've seen some opinions that I agree with, some that, though no "expert" myself, I'm pretty darn certain are misinformed. People tend to be pretty opinionated when lives are on the line, which is certainly their right. It's a testament to the civility of this forum that the thread has remained very polite- I don't know of another place where that's likely. But... how is she going to seperate the wheat from the chaff?<br><br>Well, adding my own opinions to the mix certainly won't help the situation. <br><br>Unfortunately, I was brought up in a non-gun household, so, decades ago, I was in a similar position, and I remember the tons of misinformation I had to deal with even then- then, much of it was from dealers, magazines and self-appointed experts at the range. So much of it is contradictory you know that a great deal of it has to be wrong, and it doesn't seem that the situation has gotten better with time.<br><br>I don't think there's any shortcut for doing the research , experimentation, and practice to arrive at the solution that's best for you- and it certainly won't be identical to mine, and it might even be much different than that of another physically similar person in a similar situation. In some ways, that's too bad, but it really is your life and those of your loved ones on the line, so no one else can shoulder the responsibility for you. There are few things you'll decide in you whole life with greater potential importance. <br><br>Thankfully, we still have a choice. Please do begin to exercise the right while it still exists.<br><br>On the less controversial points, I researched the storage life of kerosene myself a few years back, and found surprisingly little infomration, though I've seen it stated more than once as "AT LEAST 15 years", and the experience of others tends to bear that out. Don't ask me what you do with it if it does get really old, but if you find out, I'd sure be interested. :-) No doubt I can get flamed even for this, but I REALLY don't advise considering it for jet fuel. :-)<br><br>Even in this highly-yuppified suburban area I've been able to find kerosene pumps in gas stations, usually those sporting the lesser-known brands of gasoline. I suspect that it's formulated to store well because the companies themselves have no idea how long it will be in tanks in the ground before it's sold, unlike gasoline. Judging from the time lag between news from the Middle East and gas price hikes, those underground tanks must empty and have to be replenished at higher wholesale costs every 10 minutes or so. Funny it doesn't seem to work the other way- they always qualify good news by saying that it might take months for wholesale price cuts to "show up at the pumps". ;-)

Just saw Kerosene at Home Depot in 5 Gallon cans, 17.99. They also had a fine little indoor 23000 BTU kerosene heater for $62 on sale.

>All that said, I would not consider a self-loading rifle to be an >optimum choice for an emergency firearm.<br><br>I am a real newbie to this forum, but an oldtimer, who has been handling guns since Iwas 9 years old; so that's 52 years of shootin', off-and-on. I would think that the *optimum* choice for an emergency firearm would be that one which you are most proficient in using, and more importantly, the one you actually have available to you when it is needed.<br><br>Remember the old saying: "Beware the man who owns but one gun".<br><br> >As mentioned before by others, rifle ammunition is just too >dangerous to use for defense in dense living environments.<br><br>That might be too much of a generalization. There are many rifles that use *pistol* ammunition, and the ammo is available in *light* loads. These could conceviably be less of a *problem* than many full-load pistol or revolver rounds.<br><br> >Also, practice with a bolt action rifle is very necessary >before mastering a semi-auto.<br><br>Again, too much of a generalization. I grew up with single shots and pump actions. My transition to semi-autos was no different than if I had practiced with a bolt-action. I personally know a few fellows who started with semi-autos and full autos, and may have never even picked up a bolt action rifle in their *shooting* life. I would stack their profeciency with firearms up against anyone you would like to pick. <br><br>>I also personally would not choose a shotgun<br><br>And I, and many others, would disagree with you, and would choose a shotgun. What is riding in the rack in the front seat of most police units today; shotgun or rifle? Why?<br><br>If the guides, and the people in exploration camps situated in *bear* country aren't carrying Marlin 444s or 45-70 lever-actions, then guess what most of them perfer to have around.<br><br>> as shot >patterns become wider over distance and this >increases the chances of your hitting things you are not >aiming at.<br><br>What is the diameter of the shot charge, for a round of bird shot, fired out of a 12 gague at 10 feet? At 15 feet? At 20 feet? What is the average distance involved between victim and perp in a confrontation, in an urban environment?<br><br>Now... what would most likely be the confrontation distance between you and a bear, in bear-country?<br><br>> People who prefer shotguns try to get around this by >loading birdshot in a home defense shotgun. However, >birdshot may not incapacitate a potential attacke<br><br>At what distance are you assuming that a round of birdshot becomes a non-stopper? Ever fired #6 or #8 birdshot at a door, at close range?<br><br>>Hence I recommend a handgun for home and camp/trail >defense. If you choose a revolver, you're pretty much >limited to types that chamber .38 Special+P, .357Magnum, >or .44 Special caliber ammunition,<br><br>Did they suddenly stop making the 44-40, 45 Long Colt, 40 S&W, 44 Rem. Mag, 9mm (yep, they can be used in revolvers), 41 Mag, etc.?<br><br>> and to 5" or shorter barrel >lengths. The previously mentioned Ruger SP101 is >anexcellent choice. <br><br>What happened to all of those revolvers that wore barrels of 5 1/2, 6, 7 and 8 inches. [censored]... did they stop making all of those also?<br><br>>For a self-loading handgun, your choices are limited to 9mm >Luger, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.<br><br>Does this mean my .40 S&W in my Kimber is not made anymore. I just bought it! And what about that 10mm my partner carries? And there are more...<br><br>> Virtually all pistols in this class have barrel lengths of >between 3" and 4"<br><br>"Virtually all"... This is not an accurate statement.<br><br>>If weight is a factor, a longer barreled revolver in .45 Long >Colt can be used for defense against bears and hostile >people in the field as well as for hunting, but makes a poor >choice for home defense. Modern .45 LC loads are >essentially magnum cartridges.<br><br>Are you really sure about this statement? Do you know what max. pressures the manufacturers load for in the .45 Long Colt, which might be stuffed into a revolver that was made last week, OR one that was made in 1880?<br> <br>> The .44 Magnum also falls in this category. <br><br>Where do the *soft* .44 mag loads fall?<br><br>Personally, if I could grab only one gun for home defense, or carry with me for long-term survival, it would be the one (of my many) that rest beside my bed, in this remote, non-urban, area. It's a 12 gauge Mosberg pump *Home Defender* with the 18 1/2 inch barrel.<br><br>Same kind of gun we kept around as bear protection in our exploration camps.<br><br>Consider this: my ammo belt has a mix to fit that gun. It carries #6 and #8 birdshot, 00 and 000 buckshot, 1 ounce slugs( rifled and sabotted), two white and two red signal flares, two illumination rounds, and two rounds of *animal crackers*.<br><br>I can also, with the addition of very little weight, throw an 18 1/2 inch rifled barrel, with rifle sights, into my packsack, and have the gun barrels switched out in approx. two minutes if I desire to use some rather accurate slugs for some deer meat. Accurate to 100 yards and beyond, too.<br><br>You have to go some to find a rifle, or pistol, or revolver, that can give you that versatility, when conditions may tend to be unpredictable, and probaly will always be different than that which you *planned* for.<br><br>I may carry a little more weight in ammo, and a little more weight on the sling, but I can react to changing conditions with a more properly-applied firepower than most other systems.<br><br>Prospector

"I would think that the *optimum* choice for an emergency firearm would be that one which you are most proficient in using, and more importantly, the one you actually have available to you when it is needed."<br><br>I certainly agree with that. As for the rest, your level and kind of experience is much different than mine, and I certainly wouldn't argue with you. <br><br>Perhaps my choice of words was a bit assumptive. There are certainly many different kinds of firearm calibers and configurations available; what I listed as "best" was based upon my own experience. My understanding is that Barb was advised to buy a semiautomatic rifle for what is basically home defense, and I think that's a terrible idea, for a number of reasons. <br><br>Again, the point is that you want to hit what your aiming at, not what may be behind or around a target. In the home or in other short-range defense environment, a handgun, chambered for familiar and widely available service calibers and with a 2-5 inch barrel, used with proper training, is the best choice, in my opinion. It is certainly not the only choice.

>My understanding is that Barb was advised to buy a >semiautomatic rifle for what is basically home defense, and I >think that's a terrible idea, for a number of reasons. <br><br>Agreed. Many a well-trained man has died while trying to clear a FTF or FTE. In my experience, nearly all of mine have occured in autos, be it pistol or rifle. And I have even had some problems with lever actions. The most dependable, beyond the single-shot, have always seemed to be the bolt action and the no-frills pump.<br><br>I even had a revolver, with *heavy* loads, lock up on me once. Now that shocked the s**t out of me.<br><br>Personally, I have always *loved* that certain sound made by a racked pump. No mistaking it; and it seems to send a universally-understood message... :-)<br><br>Prospector<br>

For a self-loading handgun, your choices are limited to 9mm >Luger, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.<br><br>Does this mean my .40 S&W in my Kimber is not made anymore. I just bought it! And what about that 10mm my partner carries? And there are more...<br><br>that was "edit copied edit pasted" out of your post<br><br>What do you mean by "Does this mean my .40 S&W in my kimber is not made anymore." <br><br>lol i dont get it!<br><br>he did menchin .40 S&W<br><br>Have you seen Magnum Reseach's BFR? it has a .45/70 configuration! i shot a "bush gun" chambered in that caliber, and i only shot it ONCE. no more. that gun is tooo scary lol. (i was 11 at the time)<br><br>i also got to shoot a Desert Eagle chambered in .50 AE, and once again, i only shot it ONCE! big heavy gun with a nasty kick (again, 11 years old 110 lbs) !!<br>

Where is Mel Tappan now that people are asking the questions?

<< Where is Mel Tappan now that people are asking the questions? >><br><br>LoL! He's dead - but you knew that. He was rather opinionated, wasn't he? Lousy printing job on his book "Survival Guns" - it's fallen to pieces on my bookshelf.

Tom,<br><br>I agree, lousy printing job. Mine fell apart too. That didn't keep people from borrowing it, though. Or keeping it, for that matter. The last person to borrow it still has it. I wish I could remember who it was.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

>that was "edit copied edit pasted" out of your post<br><br>>What do you mean by "Does this mean my .40 S&W in my >kimber is not made anymore." <br><br>>lol i dont get it!<br><br>>he did menchin .40 S&W<br><br>You are correct, of course. My fingers were faster than my brain. That happens when one gets old... :-)<br><br>>Have you seen Magnum Reseach's BFR? it has a .45/70 >configuration! i shot a "bush gun" chambered in that caliber, >and i only shot it ONCE. no more. that gun is tooo scary lol. (i >was 11 at the time)<br><br>My shooting buddy/gun dealer is trying to get me into the 45-70 black powder cart. thingy with a Sharps single shot. He wants to build a 1,000 yard range on my property. Hell, i can't see a 1,000 yards anymore, much less see the gong that far away. Besides, I don't think my shoulder would take the pounding from the 45-70 anymore; even with black powder loadings.<br><br>>i also got to shoot a Desert Eagle chambered in .50 AE, and >once again, i only shot it ONCE! big heavy gun with a nasty >kick (again, 11 years old 110 lbs) !!<br><br>Not my cup of tea. Just too much recoil for comfort. I would develope a built-in flinch that would guarantee missing the target.<br><br>I have a 50 yard and 100 yard shooting range in my back yard. I am quite content on making my next, and probably final, gun acquisitions within the next month, and happily just spend my *gun* time playing with loads for them. That would, hopefully, be a Rolling Block single shot rifle, and a Schofield *breaktop* pistol from Navy Arms; both in .45 Long Colt. Nice, soft, short-range shooting. If I want to hit something at a 1,000 yards I'll buy a Cruise missle... ;-)<br><br>Prospector<br>

>>LoL! He's dead - but you knew that. He was rather opinionated, wasn't he? Lousy printing job on his book "Survival Guns" - it's fallen to pieces on my bookshelf.<<<br><br>Well, yes, I kniew that. :-). <br><br>Having been accused of being over-opinionated myself, I may not be a good judge- but I don't remember reading any well-known gun writer that wasn't pretty opinionated. That perception might depend on whether you agree with the opinions expressed or not. Those we agree with seem remarkably objective, somehow. ;-)<br><br>Funny, my copy is still very useable, though a bit ragged. Pretty dated now, unfortunately. Lately I've been paying more attention to what he said about the survival value of airguns.<br><br>Interestingly, another book of his, "Tappan on Survival" (same printing quality) bears a forward by Jerry Pournelle, onetime columnist for Byte magazine and co-author of "Lucifer's Hammer" (among many others, of course) which gets mentioned here from time to time.<br><br>The Tappan-Pournelle/Niven connection leads pretty directly to Heinlein, and through Steve Barns, then Dan Inosanto, to Bruce Lee. Six degrees of separation and all that. Just trivia.

Mmm... Tappan - It's still interesting to browse through once in a while. The perfect binding fell apart on my copy. I didn't say, but I don't disagree with most of what he wrote. It's a broad topic and what's suitable one place may or may not not be another, eh? There have been some interesting refinements in available ammunition and some tweaks to hardware - and changes in US law - since he wrote "Survival Guns", but over all it's still an interesting book. Kinda hard to find a BM-59 these days... anyway, pulling TEOTWAWKI scenarios out of the discussion for the moment, there are many acceptable choices that can cover a broad range of situations/preferences. One of the reasons I didn't feel like kicking out a list of hardware for Barb & husband to consider...<br><br>I hooked up with air rifles many, many years ago. Started way back when I was a competitive pistol shooter; got a nice Winchester (aka Diana) barrel - cocking .177 pistol for additional practice back in my room. (Just couldn't swing the cost of that Walther!). <br><br>I guess it was actually earlier than that - I have an original first-type Sheridan 5mm pneumatic that I shot a truck load of squirrels with over the years (distant menories of some tasty suppers...). Had a complete factory overhaul (Racine, Wisconsin, IIRC) done on it in the late 60s - no charge, came back like new, and if I ever wanted to sell it to them... (Benjamin bought them out since then). Of course, I'm not old enough to have been the first owner of that Sheridan... anyway, a couple of RWS barrel-cockers see regular use here. One is the smaller one for kids (M24???) and mine have pretty much outgrown it now. The other is the top-line barrel-cocker they sell - M36? Have to check. Mine never chronographed as high as they claim (1,000 fps), but it's measurably more accurate than my buddy's less expensive version of the same power plant that DOES chronograph at a tic over 1,000 fps. Target pellets give me about 900+ fps and Silver Bears about 830 fps. The lay of the ground in my back yard makes it difficult to shoot more than 60 yards, but that's plenty of range.<br><br>Now, I've owned and used the RWS M3x since, oh, maybe 81 or 82, and it's been a ton of fun with no fuss. Other than a few obnoxious pre-dawn crows, it's been used for target practice exclusively - mostly very small reactive targets at extended ranges (for an air rifle). I wound up putting a 'scope on it about 10 years ago and I liked it so much that it stays on all the time. I should build up a peep sight that I like, but... anyway, never a lick of trouble until my nephew was shooting it one afternoon. It seems that he was closing the barrel with the same force that he had to use to cock the action spring... arrrgh! slightly bent barrel! Who would have thought... I should have instructed him more closely. But that got me to thinking about it. This winter I'll either take it to RWS for service (2 hour drive from here for the North America service center) or straighten it myself, BUT I think I'll put a sleeve on the outside of the barrel to stiffen it. No taper on the barrel, so it'll be a simple job. Never been any other problems and the seals are all tip-top. Being lazy, I just buy the various lubricants and stuff from Beeman's and follow their general recommendations for lubricating. IOW, there's not much to maintain on them, unlike firearms. Not as many makers of the really good ones as there were 20 years ago, but there are plenty to choose from and there are more calibers available than there have ben since eary in the last century. Air rifles are a ton of fun on a budget.<br><br>Was aware of the other Tappan book but never saw a copy.<br><br>I lost you after Steve Barnes, but Inosanto sounds familiar for some reason - anyway, Bruce Lee??? I think I'm cultural deficient here - where's the connection to the earlier folks? Niven / Niven & Pournelle - great books. And Steve Barns has been a great addition to that crew IMHO. (Yes, I used to read Jerry in Byte as well - almost as interesting as the books.)<br><br>Broaden the confidence interval just a tic and it's less than 6 degrees - which covers a whole lot of "What a coincidence!" instances...

Yes, as I said, much of Tappan's book is quite dated now. I wonder if it could even be done today- models and availability change so quickly now. <br><br>I don't think the BM-59 was ever plentiful, though I saw one only 6 months or so ago... and truthfully, as much as I respect the Garand action, there are 7.62 Nato pieces I like better.<br><br>Of the two books, "Survival Guns" is much the better. "Tappan on Survival" is basically reprinted Q&A from the newsletter that he ran for awhile. Not much new for anyone familiar with his thinking.<br><br>I agree with your assessment of the thread- I responded to Barb & husband without naming my preferences. Too much input is worse than too little.<br><br>I just started to get into air rifles some months ago.. maybe 9. I was looking for some way to stay in practice without driving to the range, which time constraints often prohibit. At the time that my business started to go south and I killed all discretionary spending, I had only acquired one Baikal IZH-61 for target practice across the basement. Very low power, not suited for hunting anything, but it's well suited for indoor practice- at short range, at least, it's much more accurate than I can hold (ragged single holes and the occasional cloverleaf with iron sights IF I do my part) - and it was very cheap. Still, if I had known I'd only have one for awhile, I might have gone with the CZ-631 in the same ( cheap) price range. <br><br>Now that things are easing up financially, I'm beginning to think of others again. I had my eye on a couple of models of RWS side-cockers for awhile, but it seems difficult to load them while keeping a hand on the cocking lever for safety, so I'll probably retreat to break-barrels. I wish they made the Beeman R9 in .22. <br><br>The 5-round magazine in the Baikal spoils you very quickly.<br><br>For survival- of course, it all depends on the scenario.. but I can't help but think that if things got to subsistance level, there are probably a hundred "Nimrod Wildfires" who fancy themselves hunters for every deer in the woods... but we're still vastly outnumberd by squirrels in the suburbs. Air rifles are quiet enough not to attract much attention- I wish springers were more compact and lighter- but you can't have everything.<br><br>Another alternative I explored for practice was a Beamhit (laser) system, which still seems to have a lot of promise.. but money was already a concern, and, as you say, air rifles go a long way on a budget.<br><br>Niven and Pournelle were friends and sometimes guests of Robert (Bob, to them) and Virginia (Ginny, to them) Heinlein. Steve Barnes studied martial arts under Dan Inosanto, who was the leading student of Bruce Lee and carried on Jeet Kune Do after Bruce's death. It changed... but it was bound to.

Sadly deceased for many years.

<< Steve Barnes studied martial arts under Dan Inosanto, who was the leading student of Bruce Lee and carried on Jeet Kune Do after Bruce's death >><br><br>Ah! That was the connection I didn't follow - thanks.<br><br>Have not looked at those air rifles "in the flesh". I, too, keep eyeing the RWS side-cockers (I remember when RWS was not the manf. of those models...). Actually, it seems to me that they may offer an advantage if one were shooting prone, but that's pure speculation on my part.<br><br>Roger the small game in town... it's been discussed at my house. When I was a kid, I took my limit of squirrels in my yard many times with that Sheridan - never dented the population. Sheridan is fairly noisy, though. My RWS is quiet, although I am skeptical of using it on a racoon. The Sheridan was deadly on racoons - plenty of those rascals here.<br><br>Onward and upward for now.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

87 british infantry and 17 natal Boer militia held off 4000 Zulus at Rourke's Drift with single shot Martini rifles. Mel Tappan launched an industry that gave rise to the delightfully paranoid couple in the B movie TREMORS ( subterannean giant worms in the desert) with everything from assault rifles to a best grade british double in .577 I never should have sold my Webley &Scott MKVl with .455 colonial loads :O(

Two words: Lanchester Pistol!

I suppose the side-cockers do have an advangage for firing prone- but, unlike the barrel-cockers, there is a huge temptation to just use the right hand to load the pellet and not worry about holding the lever back while your fingers are in there. The geometry makes it awkward to do anything else, though some reportedly use elbows on the lever, and some use dowels or such to prop the chamber open. The thought doesn't bother everyone.... but there's an awful lot of force on the catch that's keeping the mechanism from lopping off your fingers at that point.<br><br>From an engineering standpoint, though, the thought of having the receiver attached to the barrel by no more than a hinge, as it is in the break-barrels, seems sort of silly. Not too bad when the sights are on the barrel, but scopes mount to the receiver. The problem seems to be mostly theoretical, though, and that big open breech-end being nicely presented certainly would seem to make loading easier and faster.<br><br>In practice, you probably just get used to whatever.<br><br>I haven't even fired one of the Benjamin-Sheridan PP rifles, the ones that take 14 pumps to get up to full pressure.. but, on another forum, they (or rather the semi-custom "steroid" version) were the overwhelming recommendation for a survival scenario that involved travel on foot, apparently largely because of their light weight. Fourteen pumps is probably fine for hunting, but I can only imagine that it gets very tiresome for practice.

Pumping an air rifle does get old. That's the real pleasure of CO2 cartridges. Just advance your shot and fire. Makes target practice more fun.<br><br>I grew up in Racine, Wisconsinwhen Sheridan was still there. The various guns were as omnipresent as Johnson's Wax and Danish Kringle (Two of our most well known products.) You would have thought that my Dad would have bought me one. Not that I'm resentful or anything. Idid have an authentic Wrist Rocket!

Actually, I think that was Rourke's Drift- probably just a typo.<br><br>I LIKE the old Webley .455. Nice the way it dumps only the empties when you break it, so you can top off whenever you have a second. You can almost see the bullet going downrange, but if it hits anything, it's going down. :-)<br><br>The other day, sitting and talking to someone at work, my Windmill lighter slipped out of my pocket onto the floor. As I replaced it, my co-worker said "I didn't think you smoked". I said "I don't". So, naturally, he asked why I carried a lighter. I couldn't resist- I said "because I'm Burt!".<br><br>Needless to say, he didn't get it. Almost nobody seems to have seen Tremors 3.

i'm not answering any question, but in this forum people talk so freely of firearms, but in england it is a big deal. hangums are illegal, and it is hard to get your hands of a rifle

This is going to come out horrible I know, but I mean no insult by it. <br>England is the reason the US Constitution has the second ammendment which states "...the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."<br>The idea is that lawmakers are more prone to follow the publics wishes if they are afraid they will have thier heads blown off. Its sorta a last resort protection for freedom wether the threat is foreign or domestic. We get the reputation of being "cowboys" but I have never heard of anyone wanting to invade the USA.<br>Once again, that is not meant as an insult; just an insight into the thought process that keeps us armed.

Would you believe that I am actually a PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER.?

Actually, our various institutions and documents of state are part of a continuous process dating from the Magna Carta. Winston Churchill himself pointed this out in THE HISTORY OF THE ENGLISH SPEAKING PEOPLES. I wouldn't call a english rugby club unarmed either ;O)

K,<br><br>No. Or at least not a PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. as I tend to think of them.<br><br>Andy

Im of the opinion that most people in our country are quite moderate in thier views, but there are only two girls in town. I choose the one that supports labor since I am not a rich industrialist. Despite the whacko's.<br>Im dropping off this subject before I get on my soapbox and get the whole world ticked off.

K,<br><br>I wasn't trying to make a judgement. I have, over time, flip-flopped back and forth between the Rebublicans and the Democrats, always choosing whichever I felt to be the least of two evils at that time. Not too long ago, however, I decided that neither party was worth wasting my time at the polls, so I became a LIbertarian. Aside from the fact I will probably never vote during a primary around here, and will probably never vote for a winner, I'm pretty happy with that decision. At least now I can vote with a clean conscience. <br><br>None of this, BTW, should be taken to mean that I have a poor opinion of anyone who chooses to vote for one of the "sisters." <br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

"Aside from the fact I will probably never vote during a primary around here, and will probably never vote for a winner, I'm pretty happy with that decision. At least now I can vote with a clean conscience. "<br><br>And because you voted, you have a legitimate right to complain. My wife and I pound the people we know who wont vote or write thier officials, but are always complaining. My elected officials probably hate me. I bug them often.

hmmm....I said I would drop it.

Finally got a pellet trap for the basement- looking forward to staying in practice over the winter, for once.<br><br>>>Not as many makers of the really good ones as there were 20 years ago, but there are plenty to choose from and there are more calibers available than there have ben since eary in the last century.<<<br><br>Since I have my doubts aboiut the ergo/safety aspects of side-cockers, and I insist on "iron" sights at least as a fallback, from my investigations a year or so back I had more or less resigned myself to the idea of eventually ending up with a Beeman R9 (like everyone else). However, I was startled just yesterday to run across the specs for the RWS/Diana 350. Wow. Around 1k fps in .22, or 21-22 fp. , nice lines (not just pretty, but a stock that you can acutally line up on iron sights with) and not too heavy. Unless I find some negative info, it's going on the wish list.<br><br>I don't know how it is in the rest of the country, but around here, .177 and .22 pellets can be had at Wally World and the like, while .20 and .25 are only available mail order or from a very few select gun shops. <br><br>Not that it's hard to stock up on a pellet you like, but you can't cast your own like black powder ammo, and they seem to actually cost more than plinker-grade .22lr. Extra availabily can't hurt, and .22 at these velocities should be plenty for pot-hunting should it ever come up.

I was recently looking over the new (to me) models in the RWS line as well and was similarly impressed.<br><br>I agree with your take on the pellets... and yet, I usually get "the good stuff" anyway. Some of the local gun shops stock a pretty fair assortment and I sometimes purchase that way.<br><br>OTOH, talk about an orphan caliber - I've been using that Sheridan 5mm since the 60s and it takes a unique sole-source heavy-weight pellet... I'm sure I could use other .20 caliber pellets, but the one it's designed for is all I use in it. So far... I've been able to purchase those locally.<br><br>Now that you've got your trap you should be set. In my opinion, regular practice with air rifles really helps improve one's shooting ability with firearms. Will you be able to shoot outside at varying ranges as well?

There are quite a number of .20/5mm pellets available now, and a number of them are pretty heavy- I'm sure something else would do if that particular type became scarce.<br><br>>>Will you be able to shoot outside at varying ranges as well?<<<br><br>In that respect I am very fortunate- I do shoot powder-powered pieces as well, and I'm a long-time member of a national conservation club that sponsors shooting ranges (hint, hint)... so not only do I have available ranges within 15 minutes or so of home, but the local chapter is something of a focal point for airgunning. They have outdoor ranges devoted just to airguns (10m to Field Target), and weekly evening indoor 10m practice. <br><br>That having been said, it can still be difficult to find time to go, especially in periods (like now) when I'm working long hours and have a long commute. What with packing up, it would probably take me 30 minutes from decision to get there, and longer to get everything stowed again. By contrast, I can be shooting in the basement in 30 seconds.<br><br>Besides, as out of practice as I am, I'm embarrassed to shoot in public. ;-)<br><br>That's part of the reason that I'm not rushing out immediately to buy a 21 FPE air rifle- it's too much for the basement, and the indoor practice, just because of it's availability, stands to benefit my shooting far more than the outdoor.<br><br>I need to work on a better backdrop and better lighting, but that's not much of a problem. I have an extremely heavy (as in, barely bendable) WWII-era canvas tarp for the former, and Home Depot for the latter.<br><br>I'm aware of the tricks using duct seal putty for a silent trap, but I'd rather save the lead for later re-use in black powder shooting.<br><br>

Sounds like you're set. You're correct - the "clang!" of a high-powered air rifle pellet striking the trap is a bit annoying indoors. I custom made ours to reduce the noise, but it's due for replacement. Intend to tinker with a snail-type decelerator this time.<br><br>Hmmm, gee, I expect that club has a couple of chapters here as well... anyway, out the backdoor at our house is quite legal in my town (not the neighboring one) and quite safe as well, so I get to futz around with field shooting rather more often not. But it's still not as convenient as the indoor option.<br><br>In a previous job I practiced with my target air pistol in my office at lunchtime - door closed, of course. It was only 8 meters, but that was better than nothing. Hmmm - recalling that gives me an idea.<br><br>If/when you get one of those RWS models I'd be very interested to hear your opinion of it.

I can get close to 20 meters upstairs- from the formal living room, through the formal dining room over the table and under the chandelier, through the French doors, past the wood stove, to an 18-inch wide target area between two windows in the sun room... which is mostly windows. <br><br>Yeah, right. Maybe with the Beamhit- I don't think I'm going to be able to sell the idea with lead pellets.<br><br>I could get 10 meters easily in the garage (it's been extended) from the front to the back, but it's not heated for winter, it would require lighting, there are glass windows in the large garage door, and in this yuppie neighborhood the mere appearance of a person with a gun is (and has been) cause for response by nervous armed gentlemen in a large very noisy helicopter. I could probably do it if I replaced the garage door first, though the noise might still alarm the neighbors. <br><br>Short of either of those options, it's about 25 feet in the basement, and less worry about noise.<br><br>I've talked with several people about various styles of traps, and the consensus so far is that other than ballistic putty or similar, it's VERY hard to avoid fragmentation to the point of disintegration as you approach supersonic. Apparently lead dust becomes a concern. Acute angles just cause smearing, and even those with truck-mud-flap rigs report that the very high-powered air rifles still cause pellet disintegration.<br><br>>>If/when you get one of those RWS models I'd be very interested to hear your opinion of it.<<<br><br>Happy to oblige, but it won't be a very informed opinion, since I've never owned any others in it's class. Perhaps, once I can reciprocate, I can persuade others in the club to let me try theirs.

<< the consensus so far is that other than ballistic putty or similar, it's VERY hard to avoid fragmentation to the point of disintigration as you approach supersonic. Apparently lead dust becomes a concern. Acute angles just cause smearing, and even those with truck-mud-flap rigs report that the very high-powered air rifles still cause pellet disintegration >><br><br>Yup; that's been my experience. And heavier pellets don't fix things - plus they beat the snot out of most commercial traps. Current trap uses acute angles, dampening of the metal (reduces noise) and some baffles - and baffles add a LOT of debris inside the trap (which then needs to be cleaned out more often). As I said, I intend to replace it with an oil-washed decelerator type trap. I haven't calculated my target airflow requirements yet, but the same 12v DC power for the oil pump is going to drive a salvaged muffin fan(s), aspirating thru a HEPA filter.<br><br><< can get close to 20 meters upstairs >><br><br>As for your brilliant approach to the indoor range - Hehe - I have similar contortions to go through for longer-range indoors practice - I gave up and stick to 10 meters, which I can barely get in the walk-out basement without shooting thru more than 2 rooms. Kids who are not shooting at the time, curious dogs, etc. make it impractical to shoot farther indoors.

Have you looked at the Beamhit systems? It's certainly... interesting.<br><br>

", but I'd rather save the lead for later re-use in black powder shooting."<br><br>Im sure someone has mentioned this before, but.... :)<br><br>Carboard boxes full of magazines and newspapers will stop a 44 magnum. I used them when I was a kid for pellet rifle backstops. If you want the lead, I suppose you could burn the box in a barbeque grill or something.<br><br>Just a thought.

I didn't realize they made them for air rifles - oh! You mean to use your regular firearms with it - hmmm - interesting - yes, I am familiar with it; no, I never really thought about using it at home. Hmmm... stuck in my paradigm again... Huh. Still need to shoot, I think - especially with kids - funny how that is. But for serious adult use, yeah, that would be a great supplemental marksmanship maintenance tool - good idea.

Hey Guys,<br><br>It's been awhile but, I have successfully used alternating layers of terrycloth, 20ga sheetmetal, and cardboard as baffling in my pellet trap. IIRC, it was an approximately 2'x2'x2' pine box with an about a 20"x20" opening in the front. The top lifted off for occassional baffle replacement. It ran cardboard (1" or so), old towels (maybe three inches), sheetmetal, cardboard, old towels, sheetmetal, cardboard, towels, sheetmetal and finally, a few layers of roofing rubber. There was a little room left over in the front, I used scrap lumber as a spacer to hold it all in place. It was easy to tack targets up. I knew it was time to replace baffles when I heard pellets hitting wood (or block...oops).<br><br>I had/have somewhere a Benjamin/Sheridan rifle. I could pump it till my arms were sore and not fully penetrate my trap. I usually stuck to around five pumps though... Few disadvantages: it was heavy, a PITA to change baffling, probably overkill (but, I didn't have to change baffling very often), and I left it in Mississippi a few moves back. Hope this helps.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

Hi, Andy!<br><br>My Sheridan 5mm is the old style (have to hold down a safety on the back of the receiver with thumb or it will not shoot - like the grip safety on a M1911). One of the questions I asked them way back when I had it overhauled was "How many pumps is max?" and the answer was "8" - I had been pumping it 10 times up until then. Indoors, I normally pump it 5 times. At 8 pumps it zips a pellet clean thru 3/4" plywood at 10 meters - and it's still cooking along... that particular air rifle is especially rough on traps.<br><br>My RWS .177 disintegrates pellets in traps. Less mass; more velocity. It has very good penetration, especially with heavy pellets, but it's not in the same class as the Sheridan

You guys are getting me interested in air guns again.<br><br>My airgun battery is not exactly modern -- late 1960s Sheridan 5 mm pump. Unfortunately I can't find my owner's manual & I don't remember where to lube it & with what? For you Sheridan users, what's appropriate?<br><br>My gun's sights are unduly thin at the front & open in the rear. Any thoughts on metallic improvements?<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>John

No kids in this household; it probably affects my thinking... they're all MY toys. :-)<br><br>But, yes, if the Beamhit system lives up to it's billing, I think it has a lot of potential. I could actually use that 20m length through the upstairs during the long winter when I'd just as soon not be at the range, without risking windows and furniture. About $250 gets the system with 3 different caliber rods, which means that, unlike practice with an air gun, you can practice with the actual pieces you'll be shooting at the range, longarms and pistols. I never see it mentioned, but I assume cautious people would use snap caps.<br><br>Of course, it can't substitute for live firing... on the other hand, Olympic shooters spend hours just practicing hold, then more hours just dry firing for trigger control. The Beamhit would seem to have the potential to take it one step further, and give you real feedback.<br><br>Too bad none of the computers here are anywhere near a long line-of-sight, but I understand that it performs basic functions on it's own.

John,<br><br>Pretty much two places to lube - the pivots for the operating rod / forearm / piston and the piston/cylinder itself. "Gun Oil" OK for the pivot points; you might want to use something elsse on the piston OR go ahead and use light oil there as well - no dieseling effect with a pump-up. A little oil on the bolt and the o-ring as well, I suppose.<br><br>If you look closely, there is a place on the receiver to attach a receiver (peep) sight. Sheridan used to sell one that fit - I don't imagine it was unique, tho. No easy fix on the front sight - keep it blackened.<br><br>I never had an owner's manual, either - let me know if you find one.<br><br>The original pellets weigh about 15 grains IIRC, so if you cannot find them, check Beeman's for 5mm pellets - they have one that is heavy enough. I've never shot anything but the original style in mine up to now.<br><br>Meanwhile, check out spring-power air rifles - they range from inexpensive to outrageous. These are NOT the Daisy Red Rider one grew up with...<br><br>Have fun!<br><br>Tom<br><br>

Putting <br><< ... they're all MY toys >> <br> with<br><< none of the computers here are anywhere near a long line-of-sight >><br><br>yields the conclusion that a new laptop could be in your future... gee, just think of all the money you're going to save on fuel and ammo, not to mention wear and tear on the automobile and barrels... why, it would pay for itself in just a few weeks... (just trying to help stimulate the creative thinking here)<br><br>Do any of your area police departments use Beamhit? I've only seen it, not used it personally. If you can talk to a live user - or better, try it out yourself for a bit...<br><br>Tom

As I mentioned before, when a survival + foot travel scenario was brought up on another forum with the question of which airgun would be recommended, by far the most responses were for the Benjamin Sheridan with the "Steroid" customization.<br><br>There are also care and useage tips on the same page (sorry, I couldn't find it eariler).<br><br>http://www.mac1airgun.com/steriodags.html<br>

Interesting link - it lead me to some others, as well. Thanks.<br><br>What "other forum", if you don't mind sharing? (PM is fine) I'd like to read the airgun discussion.

>>Do any of your area police departments use Beamhit? I've only seen it, not used it personally. If you can talk to a live user - or better, try it out yourself for a bit...<<<br><br>Woudln't know, no contacts in that area- just speculation, but I'd suppose departments would be a little slow to adopt something like this. They typically already have some investment in ranges, and the cost of this system is not trivial. Were I in law enforcement, I think I'd be interested personally- but I still see armored-car guards with flap holsters and nickel-plated pawnshop revolvers. No accounting for priorities.<br><br>I almost bought one of the first Beamhit units, years ago- I actually sent a check, which was returned. The company quit carrying them... I still don't know why, but it did give me pause.

>>What "other forum", if you don't mind sharing? (PM is fine) I'd like to read the airgun discussion<<<br><br>No reason to keep it private that I'm aware of. I'm virtually certain that the conversation I remember was on this one:<br><br>http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/79537<br><br>(you have to scroll down quite some distance to get to the conversations)<br><br>but I also spent some time checking out this one:<br><br>(same sponsor)<br><br>http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/113813<br><br>and this is the page that links both, and has other useful links besides:<br><br>http://www.airgunforum.com/<br><br>I learned a lot by lurking and reading on these fori, haven't been on in awhile.... but do be forewarned that the tone is often not nearly as polite as it is here. Each has their little "in" clique, and it's not hard to attract flames. Voicing any opinion contrary to their running consensus will do that nicely.<br><br>Not many places on-line are as polite as this forum, actually.

<< no contacts in that area >><br><br>I'll ask around. I have military contacts, but I'm inclined to think of law enforcement types having more similar "needs". I'll let you know if I have any luck.

Tom, PL,<br><br>Thank you very much for the info. The leads from the Mac1 links are great. <br><br>I guess I'll use Breakfree CLP on the pivot points. Is it safe use it on the piston & O-ring?<br><br>IIRC, the Wms peep was a little basic. But if it fits, Wms probably makes a little more sophisticated model that can also fit! DUH! Thanks for stimulating the grey matter guys. Maybe it's time to get a new Wms catalog.<br><br>I'm pretty sure I still have the owner's manual. I'll let you know if I can ever find it.<br><br>I still have a lot of the older Sheridan 5mm pellets. I went shooting today. I checked my gun club's list of available supplies. One distributor lists for Benjamin Sheridan the std. peep sight & 5mm pellets, but they did not describe them. We'll see when I run out of my original pellets.<br><br>I guess it's time to start looking at modern air guns too.<br><br>Again, thanks a lot guys,<br><br>John

FWIW, I just recieved the CZ-163 last night, and so far (after a dozen or so rounds) I'm impressed.<br><br>It's full sized- I'm a big guy, and the pull is long enough to be comfortable for me, a lot longer than many service rifles. I'ts not heavy, but hefty enough to be steady. Sight is hooded-post front and fully adjustable rear, nice picture, not the finest adjusters I've used but not primitive either (much better, say, than the sights on a 10/22). There are scope grooves milled in the receiver. The trigger is crisp and adjustable down to less than 1 lb. The stock is MUCH nicer in person than one might think from photos- the shape that is not very photogenic looks better in person and feels very good indeed- somewhere between field and target shapes, with a very nice-feeling palm swell. The forestock that looks too deep in photos turns out to balance nicely. The "checkered" panels on the forestock are obviously pressed, and they're really stippled, not checkered- but they are (unlike some specimens I've seen reviewed) even on both sides. The stock is stained beech with an oil finish. Fit and finish is comparable to much more expensive European air rifles that I've handled. Befitting it's origins (if you know the CZ name), the overall "feel" is solid and businesslike, no rattles or wobbles anywhere, and not at all cheap or toy-like in any way. If you buy this for one of your kids, beware- you may decide it's too nice for them.<br><br>Other than the stock, the piece is almost all blued steel- the only plastic pieces I've seen (other than seals, of course) are the black triggerguard, buttplate, and the thumb-hook to release the breech. There is an automatic safety, but it's a nice knurled thumb-button at the rear of the receiver- very convenient. Unlocking the action and cocking was very stiff at first, but smoothed out nicely in the first several shots. Shooting it hasn't settled down enough to comment on accuracy yet, but it's reputation is good.<br><br>The only negative so far is that there is more vibration (I wouldn't call it recoil) than I expected for it's power.. and that's not all bad, as it's good practice for hunting/"magnum" power airguns.<br><br>I do wish I had bought this first, before the IZH-61, though that's nice in it's own way. For indoor target practice or plinking, at this very low price, this has to be one of the bargains of the decade. $70 + shipping. I may order one or more for Christmas presents.<br>

That sounds like quite a bargain! What is the advertised velocity?

>>What is the advertised velocity? <<<br><br>Nominally 550 fps. Fine for indoor practice or 10m.

Although no one can definitively answer the question about which rifle would be best for Barb and hubby, a couple of ideas come to mind:<br><br>1. What kind of protection do you envision? Are we talking protection from people or animals?<br><br>2. Does it have to be a rifle? For short range work nothing beats a 12 ga shotgun.<br><br>3. Why semi-auto? If a person is not trained well with any weapon, the potential for the weapon to fail is increased.Semi-autos are great if you spend the time to practice with them. They also tend to be more maintenance intensive.<br><br>4. What environment is the defese weapon to be used? If it's in the house then IMHO you DON"T want a rifle - unless you don't mind the bullet passing through the house and possibly going into someone else's home. For interior home use a shot gun poses the least threat to bystanders and family members in the next room. (Depending on shot size and power)<br><br>There are a dozen different criteria you can use to try to answer the question. I sold firearms for over a decade and the question "What is the best gun for...." came up multiple times daily. Barb, I don't want to overwhelm you, but it's just not that simple. <br>Email me if you want.

By the way, there is no such thing as a dumb question, except for the ones you don't ask. I think all here on the forum enjoy helping one another.

Better late than never Barb,<br><br>Kerosene will store for a very long time. I can't give an exact time, but some say indefinite. Your local hardware store should have it in the paint section in 2 1/2 gallon and 1 gallon plastic containers. This is good clear kerosene. Be careful buying the 5 gallon cans in your big home stores, it is not the kind you want for lanterns and cooking stoves. If its red don't buy it. Kerosene is best stored in plastic because the water content will rust metal cans over a period of time.<br> When buying a firearm, go to a gun store or show and pick up as many as you can. There will be one or two that you will say, this sure feels good. Now you have narrowed your choices down. A woman will not shoot a gun that is not comfortable to her, and you need to shoot a minimum of 500 rds. through it. I bought a 12 ga. shotgun and took my wife and daughter out to shoot it. I fired it once and thats all it took for them to know they didn't want any part of it. Bigger is not always better. Proficiency and accuracy are paramount. If you awake in the night and can't find the safety on your weapon, it is useless, unless you club the attacker with it. Of course, this is just my opinion.<br><br>good luck<br>Bruce