I just found this forum and wanted to make a few comments. I live in the Cascades in SW Washington state. I once hiked out from being lost in the woods on forest service roads, so there are a few things that came to mind.

Forest service roads are a nightmare. I walked about 20 miles to get out (during the fall fortunately.) It dawned on me to leave rocks at any branches of the road, so I could tell if I'd tried that branch or not. We had maps from the forest service (we were picking fir cones for sale) and THEIR maps were inaccurate. In that area, the vine maples were still bent down from the snowfall the previous year and acted almost like a fish trap. You could only walk out in one direction. I found another road pretty quickly and that's when I had to walk out of the maze of roads. I think he did a damn good job, all things considered. That's rugged country. It's tough to hike in even in the best of shape. The woods were likely wet and it would be hard to start a fire, unless you managed to keep something dry enough for firestarter.

But I do wonder about a few things. Don't folks carry shovels in the winter? Hats and warm clothes? Have we given up on using compasses to at least help us keep from walking in circles? That area is unlikely to be in range of any cell tower. (At home, I have to drive 5 miles to get within range of a tower.) I realize that some of these electronic devices can be helpful but they somehow strike me as being just gadgets. It seems like you might rely on them too heavily.

Lots of good stuff in this forum and I hope to learn more.

Had they had stopped for lunch and were eaten by Bears, would everyone fault then for not carrying a gun? Judging from the other posts, probably so.

We recently had a rare snow storm (“snow storm” in Seattle terms) here in Seattle. Hundreds of cars with fender-benders, run into ditches, abandoned when they couldn’t get up ice covered hills, out of gas, no chains, etc. etc. In a time when way too many people call 911 just to report power failures or ask “was that an Earthquake?” do you want your average Mom with kids driving to the Mall to have a PLB in the car? How many people in Seattle would have fire there’s off thinking it would just flash on the Map at AAA and a tow truck would show up in 20 minutes. If the Kim’s were planning on getting into that situation they did, they wouldn’t have had carried a PLB or a Sat Phone or a dog-sled, they would have simply not gotten into that situation. Like most accidents, this too was chain of events which lead to the ultimate situation. Bad Weather, not familiar with the area, no warnings on maps, nighttime, kids cranky, late arrival, missing lock / open gate, etc., etc. The one thing which was the true mistake that we all can learn from, is that if you’re not traveling on Interstate Highways then ask someone about the roads conditions. (Interstates are still no excuse to not have chains, blankets, etc. in the car during Winter driving.) In the case of buying the Mom and kids a PLB as a great non-holiday gift, yeah; if they go back-county hiking or snowshoeing. But to have one in the car just in case? In case of what? I’d say there is a million times greater chance of a PLB being stolen or lost then it be needed for a life saving situation in a throw-it in-the-car-just-in-case situation. Remember the Kim’s were not crossing the Siskiyous in a Cessna 182.

As far as blaming Kim, an expert in MP3 players for not having a PLB, I’d say his odds of getting robbed in the parking lot at the Denny’s they were last seen at were far far far greater than getting lost in the middle of nowhere, and yet I didn’t see Doug add a .45 to the list of what he could have been carrying on his person.

I really respect Doug’s advice and perspective and have been reading his site for the past maybe 8 years since I’ve been flying. And unlike Doug, not everyone can just throw a $2500 aviation survival kit into the trunk just-in-case. Even if they did carry a survival kit, and arctic sleeping bags, and a PLB and a Sat Phone and a hand cranked charger for their cell phones and a .45 with plenty of ammo, they could have driven off the shoulder and plunged into the canyon to their deaths.

What I was hoping for from Doug wasn’t that he should have had a PLB. That’s a no brainer, as anybody could have pushed the button at that point. But instead, once in that situation, what could/should he have done? And thus could I have learned something more than the obvious. What could he have done with the materials making up his car that he could have used better. What key cheap no-excuse-to-not-have-in-any vehicle item or tool if he had with him could have made a difference. Saying your life is worth more than a $500 PLB on that trip, come on, I expected more than that.

"Yes, they could save your life if ever used in an emergency but how many of us have $700 to invest in one? I honestly doubt I will buy one in their current design. It would have to half in price, come with better weather resistance and have self service batteries, like CR123s. The concept is excellent, just not very affordable for the masses."

I hear this a lot - yet I see people with nine AR-15s in their collection, or who can afford $600 for a playstation 3 and another $160 for a couple of games...

I'd love for them to be cheaper, don't get me wrong, but for many it's not the cost, it's the priorities. They don't think they'll need one (and most won't).

The idea that you don't seem to be considering is that disasters are not caused by a single circumstance. They are caused by a chain reaction of bad decisions, equipment, and circumstances that all combine to create a life-or-death situation. (Sounds like the opening of the "Seconds from Disaster" TV show, doesn't it?)

If you pay attention to Doug's blog (http://www.equipped.org/blog/?p=43), you'll notice that it lists several ideas and pieces of equipment that would have kept the Kims out of the situation or kept tragedy from occurring during the situation.

There really is no one-stop, catch-all piece of equipment that will solve every situation. A PLB, as wonderful as they are, will not keep you warm at night in the snow (unless there's a serious malfunction in your PLB).

If you are really interested in a "key cheap no-excuse-to-not-have-in-any vehicle item or tool if he had with him could have made a difference", then the item in your skull is what fits the bill. Key decisions were made that put the Kim family in a snowbound situation, and then key decisions were made which caused the death of James Kim. A change in any one of these decisions could have likely prevented the tragedy altogether.

Any equipment you carry is only meant to supplement your intelligence to improve your chances. Your brain: Don't leave home without it!

[color:"black"] [/color] i have found it much safer to personaly talk to a forest ranger that at least somewhat knows what area you are going into. they can usually guide you thru points that may be misrepresented on maps, and they usually don't mind helping!!

I think everyone in the civilized world today has forgotten their roots, edible roots, and all other edible plants for that matter. we just don't seem to think we have anything to eat if we're not near a store. i think survival eating should be the big thing we take away from this. face it, he didn't have to freeze if he didn't have to move.

I have been emmerced in this story since first seeing an alarm raised on a SanFrancisco tech blog regarding the missing family, a few hours before it hit the news.
Most of my questions have been answered (many by this forum), but a few still remain. The one I wish to ask now regards building a fire. I keep picturing those burning tires, I keep thinking gasoline, and I keep thinking wood. Billions of pieces of wood. I realize that all the wood on the ground is wet and I suppose higher dead branches are wet as well, but if you put wet wood on a fire burning strong enough, would the water not boil off, allowing the wood to burn? Could you not use gas to feed and build a core fire hot enough to accept scavanged wood? Collect wood, melt snow, thank God mom's got milk, build a raging fire, and keep the fire going. I am an Indiana boy,having no knowledge of this country, but I have built a number of camp fires, often with some scavanging, but I never really had to fall back on wet wood. I would appreciate knowing the fallacy of my image.

I have found that wet wood fires go out pretty easily if unattended and not nurtured. Even when there is a hot bed of coals going, I have found that if I leave a fire alone for about 15 munites, it is out and while it restarts readily because of all the heat it really does need to be tended to.

Sometimes wood is so damp that splitting doesn't help. What have you more experienced folks found? Any tips for fires with damp wood? Fatwood has been a savior for me in the damp.

You bring up a good point. As a kid I grew up in a house that burned wood as the primary heat source. The name of the game is letting the wood season (dry out) for months before it goes on the stack that is to be burned. Then it is imperative that you keep it dry. We had an enclosed back porch that was full of dry wood. The name of the game was keeping it dry.

I have tried to burn brushpiles that were wet before & it is a losing battle. Even with gasoline, kerosine or any other ine's it is next to impossible. That has been my experience.

IMO, The sad truth is those two Bic lighters were worthless once James headed into that woods that was completly soaked with rain, sleet & melting snow. I had temporarily thought he should have kept those shed pants with him for burning & then it dawned on me that they were obviously soaked.

If there is a magic trick to making a fire in that environment I would also love to hear it.

If they were in certain areas in Alaska, then definately so. Similarly, if they were traveling in snowy mountains in winter they will be faulted for not carrying suitable gear to keep them from getting stuck, and suitable gear to allow them to survive if they do.

Amen.

Again, we are supposed to forego preparations for a likely scenario because we can't possibly be prepared or prevent every single possible type of disaster? This seems to be a recurring theme on this thread. I really don't know what to make of it.

I re-read Doug's analysis and, aside from a PLB, he also recommends carrying a well-stocked survival kit, CB radio, cell phone chargers, food and water, a mapping GPS, some form of heater, and suitable clothing. The only thing I saw no mention of that I would absolutely carry for winter mountain travel is tire chains. I would add that if you are not going to carry the other gear, then you damn well better carry the PLB. One wrong turn too many and you are gonna need it.