I've read accounts which indicate he had a GPS, but that means little since he missed his turn onto Hwy 42. Besides the PLB, the one piece of gear I'd have had is a Garmin mapping GPS with turn instructions. Even if I deliberately decided to skip Hwy 42 and took the route that Kim chose in error, following the GPS would have prevented turning onto the logging road and getting way off the beaten track. I checked and while Hwy 42 is in the GPS V's basemap, the route Kim chose for his trip to the coast is not in the basemap, it's only in the detail map I'd need to upload. The logging roads are not there and the GPS would simply show you offroad heading whatever direction.

I don't consider a GPS to be survival equipment, it's just a navigation tool, like maps and compass are tools. However, a good mapping GPS knows where you were, where you are and if you set it up it knows where you want to go. Mine's not even close to cutting edge, 4-level grey LCD display and only 19 Megs of flash memory, but if I was leaving I-5 that leg of the trip would be in memory. One of these days I'll upgrade to a color display with enough memory for the entire western US, but for now I'll make due with a unit that works for me.

This all goes to preventing the situation by avoiding the missed turns. Without the GPS, as soon as I hit snow and looked at my gas gauge I'd have been looking for a place to turn around. There are places to stay in Grant's Pass and Roseburg. Besides, what's the point of a scenic route at night. I've driven through the Sierra's at night and all you can see are the deer grazing by the road.

I have to disagree with the prevailing notion that wet wood makes it exceedingly difficult to start a fire or keep it going. I will qualify my remarks in that my experience may only apply to my own local environment. The key is a little bit of understanding and some practice.

First, don't confuse wet wood with green wood or rotten wood - neither of these will burn very well. But wood that has been dead for a while will usually burn without much fuss no matter how much it has been raining or snowing in the past few days, especially if it was still standing rather than laying on the ground. Even then, its not a big deal as long as its not rotten.

Now, in the Kim's case, it looks like the area was covered with evergreen trees. Pine pitch scraped off a tree trunk is 100% waterproof and makes great tinder. Dead pine needles are very water resistant and make good tinder, producing furnace-like heat when you blow on them.

Now find a smallish dead fallen tree (or a standing one who's roots are rotten enough that you can push it over). Drag it over to your firesite and start at the top. When you've stripped and burned everything that is small enough to break by hand, lay the trunk across the fire. When the end burns off, throw the remaining piece on the fire and slide the trunk over and repeat the process. This is a much easier way to keep a fire going long-term than chopping or sawing.

The only reason I can imagine ever using batoning to split wood is if I need a flat piece of wood for some reason.

I'm relatively new here, but I think Doug maybe holding back out of respect. Plus the other members have covered most of the basic & obvious stuff.

This site is mainly geared towards.

1. Don't get lost.
2. If you are lost survive for a couple days until you are found.
3. Signal for help.

This site has detailed his mistakes pretty well:

James blew #1 above by taking a wrong turn into a mountain pass that many on here have admitted they could have easily done. (I definitely could have made this mistake)

Several have pointed out that as soon as you are lost turn around.(But how many of us men would have wanted to admit defeat & turn around - especially in front of the wife) And I'm not convinced that he realized he was lost & don't honestly know that I would have realized it. When it's dark & the snow is coming down it's kinda hard to read the signs.

They failed on #1,

but had fully met & passed #2 & #3 above.

1. Shelter of the Car.
2. Melting snow for water.
3. Burned tires for minimal warmth & signaling.
4. Written a large SOS in the snow & later used an umbrella for waving at helicopter. (Some have pointed out the mirrors for signaling, but the umbrella worked once a helicopter did fly by)

The surviving & signaling for help hadn't worked for SEVEN days. And they were in a world of hurt because they didn't know when/if help was ever going to come. As a man with two young children who would soon be facing starvation he made the only decision he could think of and that was to go for it. And in spite of all his failures I do think that makes him a hero.

The survival gear discussed most often here isn't going cover you in all situations especially high up in the snow covered mountains. What good are 5 fishing hooks when you're going to die from hypothermia trying to hike down to the creek to go fishing. The winter mountains are a brutal place to be. A PSK & FAK aren't going to help much when there is 3 to 4 feet of snow on the ground & it 20 degrees. A multi-tool for cutting braches that are too soaking wet & frozen to burn isn't going to help. Though a multi-tool along with some cordage could be used to make some snowshoes you still would die from the cold without a fire & better clothing. A really loud whistle is worthless if no one is within 30 miles of you. etc. You can't forage for food when everything is buried under snow & ice. A little candle would be great for the 1st night. The PSK is geared towards a short time period. They had made it way past the initial 72 hours.

Real problems were that they didn't have winter clothing & boots. And didn't have a longterm food supply. Things that are obvious, but the Kims didn't think they were going to need these items.

So that is why the magic bullet is the PLB or OnStar on your vehicle which very few will get because just like the winter clothing & longterm food they don't think they will need them.

James Kim was under a lot of pressure & I personally would rather have died trying than watch my kids starve if in his shoes.

What I have learned is to continue to keep my winter coveralls & boots in my vehicle when traveling in the winter. Even if they are only needed to hike 1/2 mile to closest farmhouse when vehicle is stuck or breaks down. We have a zero degree Coleman sleeping bag in all of our vehicles. I am putting together a very high calorie filled 5 gallon bucket that I will throw in the van on long trips in addition to the BOB. Anytime of the year as you never know what the terriorists will accomplish in our lifetimes. I also will continue to carry a Glock, PSK, FAK even though they wouldn't have saved me in his situation.

Speaking of his situation I read on another forum from someone that lives in that are that there were bear tracks found crossing James tracks. Another reason to always carry a personal firearm even if all it would do is scare the bear or mountain lion, etc.

Thanks for the tip. I guess I have heard that before, but the 120 acres that I grew up on just didn't have any Pine trees & I have no experience trying to burn them dry or wet. Again if he could have made a fire each night this definitely would have turned out different. Warming the body & drying the sweat soaked clothes would have equaled life.

I would love to spend a day on-site where the Kim's were stranded & get to do a hands on testing of so many things like this. I need to plan another vacation to Colorado & do more survival hands on testing.

Digging for roots the first 4 or 5 days with all the snow would have been next to impossible. Though from the pictures it looks like the snow had mostly melted by the time they were rescued.

I would love to hear about what roots would have been available at that elevation. I'm familiar with the dandelion, cattail, etc. that are readily available in my environment. Are you familiar with what was there?

Any radio is better than none and cellphones don't count.

I have read an article where a hiker was saved after his call for help on his FRS has heard 70+ miles away. He was on a mountainside and had a clear line-of-sight to the person who heard him (ideal conditions).

I have a friend who, flying with the Colorado CAP, was able to locate a group of lost hikers using FRS radios. In this case the lost group had become seperated from the main group and it was known that they had FRS radios. Without any radio communications, both of these situations would not have ended as well as they did.

JimJr

Good point:

Just read an interesting tip on another forum in regards to starting a fire & keeping it going in wet conditions. Plastic. Whether it's trash bags, plastic bottles, kids toys, etc.

They burn hot & in some cases for a long time as that oil melts & burns. Adding that to some semi-wet pine needles might mean life or death.

Well, a sat phone + GPS would give similar properties to a PLB. You still need to be able to tell the rescuers where you are. There are some fine point trade offs, but for the purpose of this discusison, the combo would be roughly equivalent.

And yes, they both need to have a pretty clear view of the sky.

The gotcha with sat phones is not the upfront cost, but the monthly charges. While they have come down a lot, they are still semi-expensive.

They are also still kinda big, so if this is your EDC cell phone, it might be a bit bulky.

That said, I'm all for it. Personally, I'm thinking the way to go is buy a PLB and GPS, and rent a sat phone when on certain trips.

On those trips, you can have the PLB in one person's pack, and the GPS/Sat phone in the other in case a pack gets lost/damaged.

Also, regardless of cell phone, radio, sat phone, etc., make sure you protect it from being crushed and protect it from getting wet.

Also consider the implications of the power used. For example, if it uses a rechargable built in battery, what do you do if the battery runs out?

-john

On another thread it was pointed out how stupid the following thought is:



I definitely agree that it is stupid.

Even if you remove the guy's wife & kids and have him driving in the car by himself it is still a major problem. I believe this male instinct (call it competitiveness, ego, drive, determination, etc.) to not want to throw in the towel is got to be one of the top contenders for what puts men in survival situations in the first place. This doesn't look right, but I hate to turn around now & waste all the time I've invested so far.

This built in competitiveness is a TWO EDGED SWORD. It can cause us to accomplish great things, but it can also kill us.

Look at how many men die trying to climb to the top of mountains. Or in the past to be the first to get to the poles. Or the first to cross an ocean in a plane. Or be the first to stand on the moon. When they make it we hail them as heros & they get their names put in our history books. When they fail we point out their mistakes & sweep them from our memories.

If James Kim had hiked out successfully we would have hailed him as brave man who fought the elements & won.

He died so we say (or at least think) what a fool. Here is where he messed up...

Anyone who wants to survive has to recognize this trait & know when to to say no.

Any women reading this post who haven't noticed this about the men in their lives need to start paying attention. Especially if you head to the great outdoors or even if he's only running to the store during a snowstorm because you need milk & bread.

To say the James Kim tragedy was just a series of bad decisions is not digging deep enough. IMO