Go ahead administrator and fix the title
I just couldnt think of any better one.

All wars are bad. However , there are small stories that stick in your mind no matter what.

A few years ago there was an ethnic war in Rwanda or Burubdi ( or both ) and the war was between two tribes or communities ; the Tutsi and the Hutu ( sp ? ) . One of the stories I cannot ever forget is when a group of one tribe or community came to a house where the husband was one of their tribe and wife was from the opposite side. They ordered him to kill her or else he would be killed.

Maybe ( if I remember) the story says that he killed his wife to save his life. And I hope I am wrong in this : most of the killings happened using machettes !!

(wiping a tear)
ehhhh !!

As we all know , societies and communities may be subject to ethnic , cultural religious, or political fragmenting at any time, and espcially in tough and rough times. So here is the question.

You are in a country or community. Problems happen (political, economic, religious ..whatever) and you start to feel tensions and small confronations building up between differemnt parts of the society. Verbal abuses and message-board attacks become more frequent. You hear of some words like "weapons" more frequently.

What do you do ?
Is it time to leave before it is too late?
Is bugging out an overreaction ?

Would you try to gather a few wise people from all sides to calm things down or would you try to leave the whole brewing mess and take your family away ASAP ?

Good question. I think it all depends on how vocal each of the groups are and if they are armed or not, I know I will be.

You can't escape it. It's the nature of the beast (us).

Even if you manage to run away and create your own community (exceptionally unlikey in these days), your group will still create it's own unrest. It can be about religion, elements of religion, attitude toward life, willingness or unwillingness to work, inability to share, hair color, eye color, or the way some people hold their mouth.

Human beings: fairly good idea, kind of poor execution. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Sue

That is seriously cool. And looks TSA friendly to boot.

Rent the movie Hotel Rwanda.

After the hutu killed off the tutsi, the dogs owned by the tutsi began to feed on the cadavers.. the hutu were offended by this and started killing the dogs...I suspect that this is the sort of thing that prompted the Flood in Genesis. Much of the world seems to be filled with people who hate each other for reasons lost in history, and whose willingness to kill one another is supressed only by militant dictatorships.Then well-meaning folk try to fix up the dicatatorship, and wind up with civil war, ethnic cleansing, and a whole lot of ungrateful people complaining that life was better under the dictator. Maybe the flood was a better solution than sending in the UN peacekeepers.

You mean like the Dutch exodus that started taking place in 2004?

Another article.
To quote: "Last year, more people left the Netherlands than arrived, despite low unemployment and the highest per-capita income of any major country in Europe."

-Blast

Sorry about that... I have no idea what happened, but that post was for the recent post on the belt with the screwdrivers for the buckle.

I think that in large measure, there is a Great Difference in how prone a First World Society (say the Dutch) is towards doing such "Kill you at the Drop of a Pin!", -as opposed to your general Third world and Primitive ones. (Far More Prone towards).

The latter often can so have more of a Dedication and Passion about things, -which variously can be both a Good thing or a Bad thing.

One such Bad thing is a certain propensity to "Bite one's Head Off"!, -in the way we're speaking of here.

The Former now, -or the First World groupings, -are very much the opposite side of the entire Coin. Both the Goods and Bads of that overall Coin. We're far more Laid Back, Cool, and Easy! Very often *not* going to WW-3 over the littlest things.

Now we should Care about some More Important things in Life. And not just go about "Creature Comforts", and the like.

But at least a Good Side of that First World Coin of our's, -is that we *Don't* go "for the Machete" at the Smallest Thing or Slight!, from one another! (Except of course from some of our Crimino Punk types, Guy going after his Wife, Girlfriend, etc over some Slight, etc etc etc. Even in our Crime Rife Enuff of a Society, -in our case, -this still is the *Exception* to the "Rule", -not the prevailing Rule itself!)

I'm afraid that in many, -though certainly not all, -Third World and Primitive Societies, -it *is* at least much more!, -of a general, Prevailing Rule! I'm again referring to "Killing Sprees", etc.

Its something to be Worried about and Prepared for, -here in our First World Society (Just witness some Aspects of New Orleans, -though it could be said that Poor Folks can be more closely akin to Third Worlders).

But a Social Breakdown here in America, Western and Central Europe, or other areas of the Free / Western / and Developed World, -is not nearly so "Hazardously Likely", -as a Breakdown in Rwanda or somewhere might well be!

The former Yugoslavia, now, -can probably be viewed as something of a "Tweener Case". Reasonably Developed, (though once PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER.), -it certainly wasn't in the "New York / Paris / London Club"! Its pent up Frustrations and Rivalries of course had made it into a real "Killing Zone"!

Lebanon too, in the 70s and 80s. Though all in all, it was closer to a Third World Society, than a First. Significantly more so than Yugoslavia. And you've got the whole additional element, of a Militant Islamic Subset (along with "Militant Christians") thrown in there too.

Speaking of such, Militant Islam, -for the very Most part a Third World phenonomon, -clearly is getting a lot of its "Jollies", -out of such Beheadings and the like.

But here in the First World, -you've got the Stellar Example of the Czech and Slovak "Velvet Divorce". (though they also were once PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER., and also something of a "Tweener Land").

So while the "Rule" doesn't always Hold entirely True, -the First Worlders and the Third Worlders / Primitives, -generally Stand on Opposite sides of the Fence, -concerning such "Machete Liklihood" here!....! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]Chisel[/email]

Denny... what a farce. Who says juries aren't manipulated?

At least he outlived most of his attackers, and the others won't be seeing freedom for the next 40+ years.

There are many people who don't care about the cause. I think they just like the violence, and use a handy incident as an excuse. People are usually really good about rationalizing their behavior.

Sue

History is not my avocation, but I think
this is not just a recent thing. It may be
that, only recently, does modern society
expect that mass killings will "never again" happen.

There are common threads.
Excuses: greed, envy, rightousness etc.
Opportunity: weak adversary, unaware adversary,
guilt-ridden adversary.
Other non-violent outlets for solutions appear to be blocked.
Coalescing of ethnic or political groups; and greivances,
scirmishes between groups, that enhance group identity
and hatred of the other group(s).

But, not to worry, there are no examples of this going on.
It can't happen here.

We've addressed this issue before here, and it comes down to the same conclusions.

There's no point in running away, the problem will only follow you and grow.

There's no hope of defending against it. Firsthand experience in Baghdad showed me that a well armed minority still has no hope of surviving a determined attack of greater numbers. The best you can hope for is MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction), with the chance of some survivors leaning in favor of the majority. I got plenty of firsthand stories from the locals there about homes being ambushed in the middle of the night by 50 or more well armed thugs. The result was always the same. The occupants were terminated, taking many of the assailants with them.

So the conclusion I reached was that I would prepare for the possibility that I could be challenged by an irresistable force, and the only objective would be to take as many of them with me as possible, make them pay as great a price as I can in what will be my last effort. Also to form my own alliances so that retribution would be inevitable and considerable.

It is almost impossible to stop someone who is willing to die to take you out as well. Your only option is pre-emptive strike, which usually comes with a high price anyways. The moment you go on the defensive you start to lose. If you can accept that a stalemate wherein you still perish is the best outcome you can hope for, then you can prepare at least for a realistic chance of success in any confrontation.

Let me put it another way. Say I am out with my family and we are accosted by a group of thugs. I will be armed, but if I lose the initiative, then it is likely one of my girls will be directly threatened with harm should I attempt to defend myself. That being the case, my girls understand that I will attack the threat, going through the girls if need be. I will not submit to threats if I am able to wield force against them. In my mind the girls have already been compromised, and the best I can hope for is to prevent the attackers from inflicting maximum damage to all of us.

Seems pretty cold, but that's life I reckon.

Of course, I've trained my girls to use lethal force as well, so the attacker may be quite surprised to find that I am not his greatest opponent after all (he he he). Don't mess with Daddy's little girls.

Not only do I agree with what you said, but I agree with your tactics. In my case - don't fear the armed man in front of you, fear the armed man and wife that are both well trained (former cops and miliary).

and on that note it is time once again to bring up this ETS reminder:

Law Enforcement Agencies and Officers are not there to protect the public, despite the claim in their motto "To Protect and Serve". In the vast majority of the cases, they are there to clean up the mess after the fact. If you want to be secure, you had best plan on taking care of it yourself, otherwise you are at the mercy of your enemies. What's more, you really don't want the police to have that kind of power and control either.

I am not an advocate of violence. I am a firm believer in being responsible for my own welfare. Same reason why I don't count on the government to take care of any of my other more personal needs either.

Let's see a show of hands, how many here believe the government is still working in our best interests and is a better custodian of our welfare than we are?

Suddenly I hear nothing but crickets chirping in the crowd. Must be a group of amputees I am addressing. Ha ha ha ha

What you've described is the US of A. People are no longer polite. There is an exponentially increasing gap between the haves and the have-nots. There is a highly disturbing trend in government to ride roughshod over our constitutional rights. And the burden on the middle class has gotten to the point where the middle class is starting to disappear.

In the face of all of this, the easy answer is "Pack up and go while you can." But the question arises, "Go where?"

Where can you think of that is better?

In my opinion, the better answer is "Protect my family, and work to change things."

We talk endlessly here about protecting your family.

How do you change things? Vote. Learn about the people who are trying to get elected, and help the ones who support measures that will return our freedoms.

Meet with the candidates and get to know them on a one-on-one basis. Not so easy with Senators and Congressmen, but local, county and state level people are pretty accessible.

Join or form citizens' groups to add the weight of numbers. Can't think of any? How about the NRA to start.

Less than 40% of the population votes in any given election. And less than that vote in the primaries. Yet the primaries determine ultimately who is going to run for President. I find it frightening that our President is elected by less than 25% of the population.

What should you do? Do something positive. Don't run away. Don't hide. The grass is just not greener over there.

It's less frightening when you consider that that is the literate portion. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The most important thing is that you maintain universal suffrage. We don't want to vote but we care for our right to vote.

Hmm. Maybe that's the answer. Maybe we should let the Canadians vote in the US elections. I'd bet we'd get a better turnout, more rational voting and donuts at the voting centers.

Wouldn't work, on second thought. They'd have to vote 1.4 times each.

Quickly as I can so as to be minimally political here.

I'm ever Tired of hearing many complain of "Erosion of our Freedoms"!

You Advise what you Advise here, -in Interests of our Survivibility. I so also Advise from the Same and towards that Same. Though on the very Opposite Side of your "Preference" and Coin.

Security / Safety / Survival just Trumps this! That Preference of your's and many Other's. *It*, -Security and the like, -is what must come First!

Like I've said elsewhere and before, -They're like Plants on the Path. However "Pretty" and Desireable in their own Right, -there *often* just Isn't Room for the Both of them!

This said, -and Hopefully Remembered and Understood, -I Amend myself to say that up to a Point, -there *is* Room for a certain measure of Both. Its *not* *totally* Either/Or, -at least not as of yet.

But things like Watering Down the Patriot Act, -*are* Stepping Over and Beyond this Line!

This *can* come to eventually make things Worse for us in the World. Which can in turn move to make things Totally "Either/Or", -and this in "Security First's" favor.

How via your Preference and Route, -you may end up getting the very thing that you *Don't* Want!

Beyond the present Line and Point that I speak of, -There just *Isn't* Room for Both!!!

Yet all too many continually Pine for a Measure of Both, -*Beyond* this all round Point and Line!

Very Understandable and all!, -on its own Right and Grounds!

But we're Far from Limited to the Luxury of such Grounds Alone, anymore! We just Can't be Having, -such "Both Ways Luxury"!

A Greater "Erosion of our Freedoms" than we'd Prefer or Like!, -for the Time Being and Duration (but for No Longer), -is just the Price we must now Pay, -*for* our Freedom and its Survival. *For* those Very Freedoms that we wish Not to see Eroded!

Guys like you speak of Freedom "Shooting Itself in the Foot", -*by* a putting of Security First. I rather beleive that that very Characterization, -lies on the Exact Opposite side of that Coin!

Important, Special, and Priceless as these are in themselves, -All too Many of us are Pining for them / Lamenting their Actual or Potential Loss, -"Over and Beyond that Line"!

We've *got* to for once and for all Make Up our Minds! We Can't be having Both! Which of the Two is it going to be?!

The Answer should be only Obvious. "Freedoms First" only leaves an otherwise Securely Locked Gate, -Wide and Open!We can come to *not* have Freedoms to be Caring about!

So in the total all round Scale Weighing here, -Security's obviously got to Come First! Whats Truly in our Security, Safety, and Survival.

Any "Watering Down Less", and "Entertainment of Both", -and we're only *Still* in Pre Sept *10th* of Mindset and Times! I thought we were suspossed to have "Learned on such" by now!....

We *CAN'T* be Having Both! Over and Beyond that Line that I speak of. Thats All thats TO it!

Until via our *Not* Shrinking so, -we someday will Truly Find ourselves *Out* of these Woods!

To paraphrase Robert Frost in "Telefon", -"Those Woods that we Pine for, -are Lovely, Dark, and Deep!, -but We've got Miles!, -*Before* we again Comfortably Sleep!"

We are still a Long Ways!, -from being Out of those Woods!

We Sure ain't gonna Get There, -by *PRE*-Sleeping on the Job!

Or by Deciding on "Unadulterated Freedoms over Security"! In any sort of "Either/Or", "Which is it Gonna Be?", -of a Choice.

We just *CAN'T* Afford to be Having Both! When here are we Finally gonna Learn?!

And then Follow Through with the Requisite "Stick to it edness"! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]Farmer[/email]

*Portions* of our Govts. have their Hearts and Minds more or less in the Right Place, -and our Best Interests at Heart.

But even these often enuff somehow "Fall Down on the Actual Job"! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]benjammin[/email]

I agree, as long as the Patriot Act actually does go away at some point. All it would take is the right (or actually wrong) types to be in Government to extend and expand that act and its provisions.

Keep in mind, also, that it's not just the Patriot Act I'm talking about. I'm also looking at the general trend towards Prohibition of any behavior that doesn't suit the current popular trend. Witness the law in Ohio that prevents someone from smoking in their own vehicle if it's company-owned. Witness the (now defunct) law in the same state that requires a concealed weapons licensee to have their weapon IN FULL VIEW ON THE SEAT of their vehicle.

There is a movement towards implanting a ID chip in children to facilitate finding them should they become lost or abducted. What else could be done with this chip? Who has access to spending information gleaned from your credit and debit cards? And to travel and movement information generated by the EZPass in your car?

George Orwell isn't spinning - he's now just shaking his head.

I do Note both where you Agree, and Disagree, with me.

I really think we've got a lot more to be Worrying about, -from the likes of whom the Patriot Act aims to Protect us from, -than from an "Over-Living" or Abuse of the Act itself!

By extension, I also mean this to refer to all such new Post Sept 11th measures, -beyond only the Act itself.

The Act and other various Measures of course *should* Duly Expire, at some Future True and Due Point. But *Not* the Premature Expirations or Watering Downs!, -that some are or have been Pushing for!

Chips and Implantations, etc, -Concern me as well ! There are many Pros and Cons to such, -a Pro being the very Good one for Lost Children, -as you mention. But to my Feeling and View at least, -there are a lot more Cons here! I've read parts of the book "Spychips", -and their Use and Abuse, -Makes me Nervous! *Here*, -I lean more towards the "Anti" side, -over the "Pro" one, -even in these new Post Sept 11th of Times.

However, -Where we should really employ such against our Foes there, -then So Be It.

These "Foes" in my mind does *Not* mean for Domestic Uses here at Home, -save regarding Foreigners here as a "Party" in any such Assemblage.

In a Larger Sense, -We should Really give the Full Green Lite and Go!, -to our Sci-Tech types! In Keeping and Greatly Furthering our Sci Tech Edge and Lead!, over such Foes! Along with all other Fronts that we Deal with them on. Just Gotta Always Keep our Sci Tech Lead! Even in Peaceable Normal Times. Let Alone Times like these!

Let me for my Part Close now, -before I may become Materially Guilty of being too Political here!, -in this Non-Political Forum! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]ScottRezaLogan[/email]

Benjammin,

I like the way you think. Thank you.