Hi friends...<br>My 12 year old daughter is going on a 5 day camp-out next week and I am already hyper-ventilating!!!! Well, they all know about basic survival as I bought John Wiseman's book about SAS Survival and they have seen me assemble my kits. I have also introduced them to Kid's EDC like whistles etc.<br><br>What would you recommend for my daughter's mini PSK for this type of camp-out? I have some ideas as per Doug's list, but would love to hear from others too.<br><br>Incidentally, my daughter's school prohibits knives of any sort, even for a camp-out and I find this disturbing and irritating to say the least...is this the same in the USA? Nevertheless, she will have a discreet linerlock Linder in a sheath in her bag..........This is a "utilitarian" looking knife and not intimidating in any way. I feel that when the chips are down, she should be able to fend for herself and help others too.....what do you think? <br><br>

My girls are 8 and 6, I have been taking them on day hikes for the last two years. They never set foot out of the car without their belly bags. These contain<br><br>1 liter water,<br>"space" blanket<br>poncho (single use plastic)<br>rations - "power bar"<br>GORP<br>whistle<br>compass - even the six year old knows how to track her trending and reverse it to attempt a return<br>knife (colemans Kamp knife with spoon fork and knife)<br>flashlight (mini-mag with head strap and small led clip light)<br>signal mirror<br>TP and facial tissues<br><br>I haven't bothered with a separate mini-PSK for them since they are small enough that the additional weight and bulk, when added to a fullish belly-bag, would be noticeable. Also I don't let them wander into the woods without me and I always have a bunch of gear - adequate for the three of us to last in the woods for a few days though not comfortably.<br><br>For a 12 year old I would definately add a water filter and some iodine tablets as EDC. For a 5 day camp-out there will be lots of other items such as clothing, tent, sleeping bag and pad, cooking stuff and food. An important distinction is whether this is a hike-in or drive-in camp. If a drive-in camp then there is much more flexibility with bringing redundant back-up items. I would think that for a drive-in camp you would want to bring a shovel and hatchet along but for a hike-in camp I wouldn't bother with the shovel at all and I would allow a large fix-blade knife to substitute for the hatchet. I she expecting to "sleep in the park and swim in the lake" or "hike accross a few mountains and hunt down her food" These are two quite different experiences. If this is a sleep in the park, swim in the lake type of thing then pack for a sleep-over at a friends house would probably be fine since there will be abundant camp staff and a mess hall and nurses office etc... If this is a hike over a few mountains and hunt down your food then you need to prepare her for being lost and spending approximately double the expected time out in the wilderness since she may be lost in a very much larger area and whatever supervision that there may be will be probably be busy trying to rescue themselves as well if something goes wrong.

If this were a Scout camp activity, the knife would likely be okay. However, if this is a "school" camp, I would not allow my daughter have a knife in her bag. Many school systems have a 0% tolerance policy. No sense in creating a potential legal problem. Pete

First of all, don't bring the knife. It's a school policy and violating it would likely cause her to be expelled. If you don't agree with the policy, then don't go. I doubt that a school outing is going to be at a location where the lack of a knife is a very serious concern. Of course, anything can happen anywhere. But for most children, a knife is not going to make the difference of lifa and death, IMHO.<br><br>Now folks, don't flame me to quickly. Most of you know I'm involved with the scouts and that scouts can carry knives. Of course this is after they have been trained under proper supervision. And this is not to be confused with the issue of how old one should be before owning a knife, which was discussed at length in a thread some months ago.<br><br>But if you reread Doug's section on Kid's Don't-Leave-Home-Without-It Equipment , both a pocket knife and firestarting gear are optional. The safety concerns are obvious. But also consider the value returned. Most children will not be lost in a remote wilderness. If they have all of the other gear and follow the steps outlined in A Kid's Wilderness Survival Primer , they will easily survive the vast majority of the "lost in the woods" situations.<br><br>I have prepared a fanny pack for each of my younger children, the older of the two is 10. I let him use knoves while under my supervision, but I do not include it in the kit. I'd be more concerned that he would accidentally cut himself while lost and alone. Not the situation has gone from bad to worse, and he does nothave the maturity or knowledge to deal with a major injury while alone. Again, most of the time, they'll be places where they should be found in a short amount of time. If we were to travel in an area where the risk is higher, I would likely re-evaluate this strategy.<br><br>Here's what they carry.<br>Water bottle<br>Fox40 whistle on a lanyard<br>Garbage bag<br>Colmann emergancy poncho (bright orange)<br>Chemical light stick in a toothpaste travel tube.<br>Two bandanas, one a bright red.<br>One space blanket.<br><br>They sometimes carry small flashlights, but they don't like the added weight. Their first action is to STOP and stay put, unless it's not safe to do so. The poncho can serve as an emergency shelter, as can the garbage bag, and it's a bright color for signalling. If night falls, the chem light will help comfort him or her as the huddle in their poncho shelter. Darkness is scary and intimidating. The chem light will last most of the night where a flashlight would burn out too quick. You and aI would hunker down in the drak and conserve batteries, but a child won't.<br><br>The whistle is the key tool for their safety. Most likely they will not have wandered too far from help, especially if they follow the S.T.O.P instructions. <br><br>We went through the gear and instruction this spring on a day hike. And will do it again on out next trip. I plan on repeating the instruction again before next season as a refresher. Practice makes perfect.<br>

Yes, it is the same in most of the USA regarding the knife being prohibited in school activities. Use your best judgement here and be wary of the consequences of violating the rules. I wouldn't want my child expelled from school.<br><br>I recommend keeping it simple when preparing children with survival equipment. If she is like most 12 year old girls, her interest in survival gear will be short and her willingness to keep it with her will be even shorter. Doug's recommendations on equiping children fall along very simple lines and I believe that is a good idea.<br><br>Give her a very limited number of simple items that she fully understands how to use. Chief among these would be the whistle. Choose other items from Doug's list for children. Be sensitive to her interest level and stop providing additional equipment and instruction when her interest runs out. If you overwhelm her with stuff, she will probably abandon all of it with her luggage at camp and not carry any of it.<br>

Manuel, I recently participated in the search for a 5 y/o girl who was abducted and murdered. The search was sad enough, but I had to bring a dehydrated searcher back on my horse. The utter lack of preparation among the volunteers was shocking. Many schools here have adopted zero tolerance policies towards knives. An honors student was suspended for bringing a butterknife to spread peanut butter. I don't think your daughter needs a knife on this campout. I would verify the adult staff's experience and preparations however. I know some people who worry more when the car leaves to get detailed than about their own children!

for a 12 year old girl it may be more about fashion and style than survival functionality. These don't have to be mutually exclusive but they are certainly not guaranteed to overlap. Getting a 12 year old girl to hang a mil surplus ammo pouch on her belt is not likely to work. It will be left behind or refilled with nail-polish. OTOH a stylish though small back-pack with her favorite teen-idol spaypainted on the back might be lugged everywhere even if empty. If you can get it small and guady then go with it. <br><br>I saw this recently on thinkGeek and thought that it might be something I could carry on a keychain next to my utili-key and swiss-tech micro-plus.

Hi Thor,<br><br>The knife issue is getting increasingly more prevelant all over from what I've read and heard of. As much as is pains one to admit, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. . . <br><br>My 14 year old is at a weeklong campout that is state sponsored and geared towards iniital camping and firearms training. They too have a zero tolerance policy on knives. This was a bit of a dissapointment to him, as he has been carrying a pocket knife for about 4 years now. As yet, there have been only very minor nicked fingers (generally along the typical office papercut in size and concern) which are pretty much viewed part of the process of knife ownership. I doubt that anyone that carries a knife has not had a similar experience. He knows how to use the knife properly and to attend to the minor cleaning and antiseptic needs that he has incurred and lets us know about them in a timely manner.<br><br>He has been very interested and really participating in the making of PSK's in the last several months, (has his own including most of the items shown in Dougs kit). He was rather irritated to learn that he COULD NOT bring most of it with him to camp. He was however (according to the camp policy guide sheet) allowed to take a canteen, compass, whistle, poncho, flashlight and mirror.<br> <br>Considering that this is a state run camp that has been around for better than 20 years, I was comfortable with the restrictions regarding the Potable Aqua, knives, fire starters and first aid stuff. This is not to say that I would not have preferred him to have carried the whole kit and kaboodle though. Sometimes we've just got to bite our tongue and let things go a bit. <br><br>On the whole, I concur with what the previous posters have addressed. You might want to peruse several of the older threads on ETS forums, there have been several pretty good discussions regarding what to do when you don't have [fill in the blank] and you need to survive. The general consensus appears to be that lacking all else, having a plan of action and the appropriate knowledge is the most essential tool that you can have when the need arises (true in survival and most of the rest of life itself). It would appear that you have been sparking her interest and providing the education. This is a good thing. <br><br>In closing, and not knowing what kind of camp you are dealing with, my gut feeling is that your daughter would probaly be OK without the knife, but I would make sure that things like compass, mirror, whistle, canteen, PSK S.T.O.P. sheet and perhaps a small food stash (SOLAS food ration bar or similar) along with a quiet father daughter discussion would be appropriate. My guess is that there is more danger of camp bullies etc. than from actually getting lost and having to survive.<br><br>Another thought . . . it might be a good idea to have kids make some sort of flagstaff to carry when they get lost. Yes, I know it sounds a bit strange at first, but think about it . . . kids are smaller and harder to spot in many cases, especially if they lay down and take a nap. If they would find a stick of some sort and carry it with them AND when laying down for a nap, stand up their flagpole so that it is close by and readily visible (this would be a good place for a couple yards of bright surveyors tape as they could make tassels to blow in the wind ) and the actual making of the flagstaff would tend to be a bit of a confidence booster . . . "hey look at me, I have my own flag and I getting unlost now" versus "woe is me" etc. In most places one can find some sort of small branch or stick fairly easily, they are light and being out of place with flag or having clear stick up to a handful of broken branches on top would help searchers. <br><br>If she does manage to "misplace the camp", then having a quick bite to eat and a sip of water while reading S.T.O.P. and backtracking while whistleblowing and mirror flashing appropriate targets/people would be much appreciated. Besides which, she'll have an interesting story for school next year, likely titled "What I did on my summer vacation" ;>)<br><br>Hope this helps.<br>Comanche7

If your daughter knows how to keep her mouth shut and has the discretion to know when to use a knife. I say let her carry one. If there is even the remote chance that she will try to show off...forget it. <br> I have said this many times lately..."A knife is a tool not a weapon." The schools around here are out of hand about these things.

Thor, I agree very strongly that your daughter should not carry a knife. Some schools have adopted a 0% tolerance 0% common sense approach to the issue. Our local school started expulsion proceedings against a young boy(7) for having a small pen knife his grandfather had given him specifically for the outing (not being aware of the policy). Then they sent it to our office asking for prosecution! It took three separate meetings with the superintendant with both me and the chief of police arguing against disciplinary proceedings before they were finally dropped. Unbelievable. <br><br> Our daughter carries an "emergency" kit (rather than survival kit) something like mini's and willies, and I will be making some additions after seeing their advice. The one addition that I would make would be a cell phone. She is not allowed to give the number out, nor to use it for social calls, but simply to have it in her pack in case of true emergency.<br><br>Take care, <br><br><br><br>become evolved....the world is run by those who grow up

Thor and all,<br><br>I can remember carrying a pocket knife to school. Without fear of discovery when younger, more discretely in high school. I carried it as a tool, not a weapon; many of my classmates felt the opposite. It's a crazy world.<br><br>The legality of the question per se bothers me not at all; I frequently break laws I feel to be stupid (rational anarchism for all you Heinlein fans). The real question for me would be one of benefits vs. consequences. Do the possible benefits (your daughter has a lifesaving tool if/when she needs it) outweigh the possible consequences (I assume your daughter would be kicked out of camp, maybe worse). For me there would be no question; my son would take the knife with strong warnings to be discrete. If caught, we would play dumb, "Oh gee Mr. Petty-Bureaucrat, I wasn't aware of that rule. I gave him the knife. I just thought that a pocket knife might come in handy on a camping trip. They sure do when we're out with the Boy Scouts, and when I'm in the field with the Guard. We're so sorry we broke your asinine Nazi regulation. Gosh!" Or some such thing......It's generally easier to ask forgiveness than permission, or at least that's my Dad taught me about dealing with wives. <br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

Hi kf4ebp,<br><br>While I agree with the thought that the camper may well be able to keep a true secret . . . I keep thinking back to some of the many experiences acquired over several summers that I spent as a camper and several more when I was a counselor . . . there are times when things must be left unattended and run the risk of accidental exposure by others, (swimming, bathing etc.).<br><br> While such discovery by others maybe (or have been innocent and unintentional), sadly, the net result will likely be the same as if it the information was freely volunteered. No need to ruin a great week of camp with a secret that escaped and wiped out a lot of hopefully fun memories. <br><br>Regards,<br>Comanche7

<<might be a good idea to have kids make some sort of flagstaff to carry>><br><br>Actually, I think that's not a bad idea...<br><br>How about extending it? A stave, er, walking stick, is very very useful. I won't bother to recite the never-ending list of practical uses. Even a broomstick, with a little dressing up, makes a handy tool. I almost always walk with a long stave made from a white oak sapling - peeled, sanded, and multiple coats of polyurathane. Kids usually really like them as well, especially if they have some sweat equity in it.<br><br>My opinion is they are more useful if they are a bit over head-high in length.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

Thor,<br><br>I expect your daughter will probably enjoy herself even without the knife - I disagree with those policies, but she probably mostly wants to just have fun on her camping trip with her chums.

Thor,<br><br>This thread contains some excellent recommendations.<br><br>The prevailing policies and laws re possession of knives at school & related activities can be harsh, intolerant & unrealistic. Alas, the punishments are also mandatory & draconian.<br><br>In our own case, 2 months ago my 12 year old son attended a 3 day camp by his 6th grade class. The principal & 2 6th grade teachers also attended. It was a professionally run theme camp with regular staff. No parents were allowed. That was the third year of using that camp. Various circumstances (some physical & objective) indicated that it was relatively safe. He is a very experienced camper & is competent with a knife, including his own regularly carried knives (SAK & L.Wave).<br><br>We reasoned that it was improbable that he would have any emergency requiring a knife. The period was short. The possible problems were unusually limited. The possibility of discovery by others was significant. Carrying a knife was illegal & harshly punished. For us, the only 2 realistic<br>options turned out to be letting him go without such normal camp gear as a knife, and not letting him go at all. The latter option was particularly attractive after we learned late that my wife was not not going to be allowed to go as a PTA chaperone.<br><br>We allowed him to attend. No significant problems occurred. Minor problems & highjinks were inevitable. Someone did pilfer his bag & stole money. A knife would have probably been found.<br><br>Investigate the people involved, the camping area, the probable risks, & make the most reasoned & best decision you can. Pray. <br><br>Good luck,<br><br>John<br><br>P.S. As an irony, my son will be going on another camping trip to the same general area for his summer long term camp in the Boy Scouts for a week in another month. But this time he will take more normal camping gear, trustworthy BSA compatriots, & proven BSA leaders (INCLUDING HIS FATHER). You guess which approach I like better. Incidentally, my 9 year old son is at CSA camp (only daytime except Friday night) all this week. I'm also one of the leaders there. And he also has his SAK (& Whittlin' Chip).

Spot on Ade!!!!! I agree 110%. In fact my daughter begged me for a knife when she saw my collection. She just loves her knife as a tool. She is responsible and I have said she had better not get caught. You are so right, I will rather ask forgiveness than permission..it is easier.

Thanks Chris.....I also do not like to break the rules unnecessarily. Unfortunately, I do know the teachers accompanying the children and they know less about survival than my pet cat. This is what really concerns me. They have no clue about appropriate gear etc. I guess we will both take our chances (my daughter and I). ooooops doesn't fit into my vocabulary where my children are concerned. You are probably right though..thanks again.

I have re-read my own post and all of yours (thank you) and I have decided that the knife will stay at home. I will make sure that she has the knowledge to improvise for a knife if it ever came to that. And you are probably all right...this camp is probably quite tame and no need for alarm....The walking staff is a great idea, but..as a parent we cannot help but be concerned I guess. Thank you all once again for your invaluable input.

I know it will sound silly and may take some space but put a piece of candy into their PSK. From experience I know how even the most uninviting, scary and harsh place could change into little more friendly when you have a sweet treat. You expect your kid to be tough and smart (and they are) but after all he/she is just a kid. Nothing wrong with little luxury. <br><br>Matt<br><br>I remember when I was doing an overnight hike to become more confident with navigation in the dark. I run into family who went out in the afternoon and walked for about 5 hours on the pretty much leveled trail (they assumed it's a loop but they missed the turn). They had plenty of water and exposure wasn't a problem. But they had two little girls with them who began to get scared and tired when woods started to get alive in the evening. I knew that they would have to cover some parts of the trail in the night so I backtracked with them to their car (they had no flash light). I always carry a can of hard candy with me. I gave them to the girls and a whole world around them was not so scary anymore. They started to ask qestions, run after my dog and were kind of disapointed when we got to their car.

Quote from MiniMe's thinkgeek page link:<br><br>"...And don't forget, women are always impressed by a man carrying a handy tool."<br><br>Heh since when survival became fashionable and my leatherman a chick magnet? Toooooo easy! :)<br><br>Matt

Good point. <br>Its a sad state of affairs that we are even debating such an issue. Its the same mentality as the gun control and anti-nuke people. If you take the object away from the trustworthy people, then the untrustworthy wont have a place to steal it. What a load of garbage. It boggles my mind that people think this way. Once something has been invented, you cannot un-invent it. <br>Pacifism only works against pacifists. <br>Im kinda going into dangerous territory. I better quit.

A quick caution on carrying food.<br><br>Never, ever under any circumstances let her have food in the tent. The obvious threat from bears should be warning enough. But more common is damage from other critters, especially racoons, squirrels and chipmonks (groundsquirrels). They can cause hundreds of dollars of damage in no time at all.<br><br>She can grab an extra apple or purchase a candy bar at the trading post to carry with her during the day. But she must either eat it or store it in a secure place (trailer, cook box, ect.) at night.

>>> ...0% tolerance 0% common sense approach <br><br>True. I recall a case where a local elementary school boy was expelled for bringing his father's dummy WWII handgranade paperwieght to school because it was a weapon. A decision completely devoid of common sense.<br><br>On the other hand, our school administrators are faced with a very real and difficult problem of providing education in a safe environment. A zero tolerance rule on knives gives them a tool to that end, even if it seems draconian.<br><br>And while I doubt such rules will ever prevent another Columbine from occuring, they may help prevent the more common problem of general violence in schools. We just had a murder in my home town this summer of a high school boy by a fellow classmate when a dispute over a girl evolved from a fistfight to homocide when one of the boys pulled a knife and stabbed the other. It did not happen on school grounds, but it could have, and surely has before.<br><br>As an aside, I'd also be a little concerned if they allowed knives and had no special rules or training for them. The school staff running the event may be adept at handling knives and instructing youths on how to do so.. or not. If not, them allowing a group of children to carry them would be irresponsible and dangerous.

Willie,<br><br>You are exactly right. Aggressive enforcement of weapons (and drug) violations at school is absolutely necessary and there should be a zero percent tolerance. I think the problem is that we try to make it "one size fits all" and give up our responsibility to think and act on each case as the facts require. If the "possess a knife--get expelled" rule is applied in a manner that we treat the butter knife for spreading peanut butter the same as the double-edged switchblade, we lose the respect of the children (and their parents). I think there are fewer stupid laws than most people think--but a lot of laws are applied stupidly.

Camping around here (no large predators other than Man) means racoons are the #1 burglar after dark. In areas where they are habituated to finding food when people are present (much like bears in some parts of the country), they come into camp / tents regardless - the presence or absence of food only affects how long they stay.<br><br>We have found that the very best racoon repellent is a large, loyal, and obedient dog. We have also found that a scout stave is an effective "racoon ejector" when one awakens with one in the tent... not a problem with a fully enclosed tent, of course.<br><br>Around here we toss a line over a limb and suspend food bags above head-height. Day packs involve a decision - hang the whole pack or hang just the foodstuffs... Bear country precautions are a bit more intricate, of course, but no need to regurgitate that info right now.<br><br>I wouldn't sweat a bit of food in a daypack one way or another if racoons are the sole threat, but the earlier one teaches this sort of good habit, the better.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

i think 0 tollerentst on knifes is a one of those rouls that doesnt make sence, considering that a scissor is a requiriment at school. a big scissor can have a larger/longer cutting edge than a knife with means it could me more dangerous than a short knife....

We can all debate the saneness or validity of a particular rule/law to our hearts content. However the rule/law is the rule/law, to suggest a child break it, (by sneaking the knife in her bag) because we don't agree with it, is not teaching respect for authority. Pete

Pete,<br><br>While I agree that it neccessary to teach our children to respect authority, it is also our responsibility to teach them to question authority when it conflicts with their morals/ethics/common sense/good judgment/BS detectors/etc....<br><br>My comments earlier were a knee-jerk reaction; further reflection has lead me to believe that it would still be a valid choice FOR ME. A more reasoned, rational, moderate response would be to boycott the camp, making [censored] good and sure that the camp administrators knew why. This has the benefit of being the high ground, and the significant disadvantage of being a no-win situation for the child. Thoreau and Ghandi would approve, Jefferson and Washington would not. There, as others have pointed out, is a middle ground somewhere in betweeen. You pays your money and you takes your choice......<br><br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

Thor,<br><br>You might also check with the school to see if you or your wife could possibly go as a chaperone, leader, driver, or whatever. Even if no such slots are presently available, you might volunteer as backups. Be sure to tell both the teacher(s) & principal you are so available. One might advocate your case for any number of reasons. You might even offer to provide support through your parent-teacher association. My wife &/or I have been able to attend many such activities by trying various approaches. Our children have benefited substantially by our presence.<br><br>Good luck.<br><br>John

Hi Thor,<br><br>It occurred to me while re-reading all of the thoughtful input [Great going folks!] on this thread, is that there is a valid and a very real need to remain a bit flexible in our dealings with life and its slaps in the face like the issue we've been discussing. By thinking beyond not having the knife (or whatever) we can become better prepared to handle adversity. Not having the knife would also occur had you been in the survival situation and lost or broken the knife. <br><br>While most of us would agree that it is frustrating to be checked and rechecked at airports, it is (sadly) the world that we now live in. While grousing about it may feel good, we need to remember that there is still the need to be prepared as best we can for the circumstances that we are facing at any given time. <br><br>There will be other opportunities for your daughter to go camping and have her knife and the rest of her kit as well. The fact that you spent some time (carefully considering, if not agonizing) over making your decision simply shows that you care a great deal for her, as we all do for our own families.<br><br>Let us know how things turn out. My guess is she'll have a great time being a kid. <br><br>Regards,<br>Comanche7<br>

Hi Tom,<br><br>Your thoughts on having a staff with you to begin with are valid and I certainly have no issue with starting out with one. I've also toyed with the idea of making one for myself.<br><br> My thinking on the flagpole was more along the lines of not having an extra item to keep track of as part of a kit, and the thought that it would give a lost child (even an adult child ;>) BIG Grin) something to focus on doing in a positive manner, which would provide a sense of accomplishment (as well as a potential protection device & signaling means).<br><br><br>Regards,<br>Comanche7

Bill,<br><br>Very well stated, your preparations appear very thorough and logical. <br><br>Good job.<br>Comanche7

SORRY Again for revbiving ANOTHER old thread!

Now i don't know you guys went about life as a kid but since the age of 7 i had a 4inch full tang blade in sheath hanging from my waist and a lifeboat whistle round my necvk, i thought this was normal! I was brought up in the countryside where like me my dad loved the outdoors! Now perhaps i'm opening a can of worms and maybe people will disagree with my parents buying me a knife at that age BUT i had a lo of respect for thsat knife to the extent that till iu was 10 i kissed it good night before i went to bed!!! I ALSO NEVER took it to school, and my partenmts were usually aropund when in use!!!

mark

Mark, It is called political Correctness, which has nothing to do with the real world :O( . Societies seem to reach down to a lowest common denominator. You as a 7 y/o could be trusted with a knife. There are people in their 'maturity' who are dangerous with spoons.

lol-i get your point!

Mark