I worked in a Medical Center for 30 years and have seen many many dog bites. Even very small dogs can do a lot of damage. A slashing and tearing bite to the ankle, a very complex joint, can result in life long incapacitation. In most cases, the owner, (who frequently accompanies the victim) keeps saying, “he has never done that before” or “I never expected my dog to bite”. Larger dogs create devastating wounds. Dogs with massive jaw muscles like pit bulls, are capable of crushing bones. I have seen the lethal wounds from a large dog where he bit through the skull of a child.

Given that, here is a story with a question.

Gloria and I were walking along a pond, deep in the Maine woods. A Doberman came running over a small hill about 50 feet away barking and growling. He stopped about 20 feet from me and lowered his head. His ears were laid back and he began to growl. Apparently he did not see Gloria. Gloria recognized the dog as that of a neighbor and yelled "Apollo, shut-up". The dog instantly turned into a "family pet". Total elapsed time, less than 10 seconds.

Had Gloria not been with me, I wonder what would have happened. How long should I wait until I shoot the dog. Should I wait until he begins to attack, at which time I would have to hit a very fast moving dog as he weaved through the underbrush. Perhaps I should have shot him when he first appeared, as he bounded over the hill barking and snarling. I do not speak dog language. I do not know when he is bluffing or if he is beginning a real attack.

This is not about the owner or dogs running loose in the woods. It is about how I, should act when I encounter this situation. From my experience in the Emergency Room, I believe that dog could easily inflict very serious or even lethal wounds. It seems wrong to kill every dog I see running wild, but where do you draw the line (and draw the gun)?

So the question is, how would you react? What are the implications of killing a dog in this sort of situation? If you are a dog owner, and you let your dog run loose, how would you react if I shot your dog?

I have dealt with this problem in a few regards. I shoot the dog when he is near enough to me, in his attack run, to be certain that I won't miss! Point blank range!
If I am not packing I crouch down low and grab him by the throat when he lunges, picking him off of the ground and strangle him until he is unconscious.
Then I finish him off & leave him where I killed him, for the owner to find & dispose of!

Here's my thoughts on a dog attack, which is probably worth what you paid for it.

1) They're often more afraid of you than you are of them. They try to make you think they're not. They're pretty good at it.

2) Don't miss. You could turn a dog thinking he's defending his territory into 100 lbs of really pissed off, pain-ridden cornered animal. Dog's posture, too.

3) As with every time you shoot, make sure of what's behind your target. I've found more dogs being pursued by their owners than solo.

4) You might want to have an alternate strategy when for when the dog is standing between you and a playground full of kids and you *can't* shoot. It might be this alternate strategy will work even when you could.

I have come very close to shooting a dog twice, both times the charge came from within 30 feet or so, and both times the owners literally jumped on their dogs to stop them. Given a safe background, I would shoot as soon as the dog actually started to charge, or as soon as it was close enough to ensure a solid hit.

If worse came to worse, I have always planned on feeding the dog my left forearm, then gut shooting it a dozen times wth my right. I also read, years ago, that it is possible to feed the dog your left forearm, then rapidly put your right forearm behind its neck and push away with the left while pulling in with the right and break the dogs neck. I would really hate to have to try that one...

Youv'e hit a nerve with this post .
I had a large black dog that , a few people said , looked like a wolf . We hiked alot of miles together in a lot of places . When we were out in the woods I took off the leash so she could run around . I knew and trusted my dog and KNEW she would never hurt anyone unless someone physicaly attacked me or her . I would have NEVER let her off the leash if she were a danger to anyone . When we hiked she would never get to far from me because she always wanted to keep me in sight . She mostly walked a little ways ahead of me sort of like she was taking the point . Sometimes when turning a corner in the trail or going over a hill , we would lose sight of each other for a moment . A few times she came upon other hikers , cross country skiers , and mountain bikers in the moment when I was not in sight yet . Like I said , she sort of looked like a wolf and did surprise some of these people and I'm sure some of them were scared for a moment . Now , I can understand that people would get scared when coming across a big dog like that in the woods . They had no way of knowing she was a GOOD dog [ IMO there are no bad dogs , only bad owners ] . I've met some VERY bad dog owners . BUT!!!!! If anyone had been STUPID and IRRESPONSIBLE enough to shoot or harm my dog in any way in the brief time that I was not in view . I would have made them EXTREMELY!!!!!! sorry they did such a STUPID!!!!! thing <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />. Before you shoot a dog , you better be ABSOLUTELY SURE your'e doing the right thing .

This is why I said, " I would wait until the dog starts it's attack run"! I do love dogs & have been known to calm the beast within when no others could. I have also been known to speak/communicate with animals, despite the way that that sounds.

Touchy topic here. I'll input my two cents. I own an Akita, so I'm familiar with big dogs and handling them when they get rowdy. It's pretty rare that I have a firearm handy, so I'd plan for defense in other ways. Much as most everyone else on this forum, I almost always have a knife with me if I'm not in the house. As soon as Fido starts his charge, that knife is going to be in my hand.

One thing I've noticed from playing with dogs in the past, especially large breeds like a German Shepard or the Akita, is that while they're running at you really fast, if you hold your ground and dodge to the side at quite literally the last second, they take a second or two to get turned around. There's your opportunity. Do what's neccesary.

I'm a pretty big fan of non-lethal dissuasion, but there's a bit of a catch-22 there. On the one hand, I'd get really, really, REALLY mad if anyone messed with my dog. On the other hand, if my best friends boxer ever charged me....well, lets just say I hope he understands that I put my well-being before that of his pets. However, if for some reason you do not wish to use lethal force, I've dicovered it's not particularly difficult to put 85 lbs of Akita on the ground and keep her there with one arm. As she charges, you try to get positioned so the dog is on your left, assuming you're right handed, and just as they reach you, side step, drop to a knee and throw your stronger right arm around their throat. Dog comes up and over your knee, hits the ground with you on top of them, and stays put.

All this said, a ticked off animal that you've hurt is bad news, no matter how you slice it. Sorry about the long post, but I really like dogs.

-Kyle <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I've used pepper spray, which worked well.

spent some time in Arkansas a while ago. Had several conversations that went like this: " i had a labrador retriever, but he got hit by a car, then we got a cocker, but he got hit by a car, so then we got a collie, but he got hit by a car..." " Ever thought about keeping the dog on a leash or inside a fence?""No, that would be wrong-dogs gotta run free." In the dog-human relationship, it is the humans job to keep the dog out of harms way-it is not the responsibility of the dog, and it is not the responsibility of the rest of the humans. If my dog gets shot, it will probably be because I made a mistake in taking care of my dog. Any dog will bite if frightened-they don't have much of a left hook and they cannot call a lawyer-biting is what they do, and they cannot be trained to never do it.

'...walking along a pond, deep in the Maine woods.'

So.... were you in National Forest or on unfenced private property?

There's considerable difference between a warning and an attack. Most dogs just threaten, protecting what they perceive (right or wrong) as their territory, and they're hoping they can bluff you so you leave the area.

Unless they're downright vicious, they probably won't actually attack, unless you provoke them.

Don't stare them in the eye -- that's sign of aggression on your part.

Stand still, don't run -- run, and you instantly become prey.

You might even call them in a cheerful voice and tell them to come. I've seen that truly flummox a dog -- they don't know what they should do, but they seem to think attacking isn't it.

FYI: The two biggest threats in pet canines are Pitbulls and Rottweilers. According to Animal People (July/August 2004), "Over the past decade the number of life-threatening and fatal pit bull attacks increased 789%. The number of life-threatening and fatal Rottweiler attacks leaped 2000%... During that time, pit bulls, Rottweilers, and their mixes have gone from being less than 1% of the total U.S. dog population to as much as 8%, almost perfectly parallel to the rates of increase in life-threatening and fatal attacks involving them."

If you intend to shoot every dog that threatens you, don't be surprised if some irate owner does the same to you.

Sue

dog attacks are rare. like someone said before theres no bad dogs,just bad owners. i dont think its neccesary to shoot a dog,and if it was my dog that was shot well(which hed never would cause he's a good boy <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) id have to kill someone. if u had some food you could distract him, ive been bit by dogs before by accident and i lived, its not like your gonna get killed unless its Cujo or ur a wuss(sorry for lack of better word). try consulting with pro's or vets ,my vet has told me what to do in case of a attack.

I live in the country. Our dogs run loose out here. I have a very large, very friendly dog. He might jump up on someone and lick them, but he'd never bite anyone. If someone shot my dog, they'd better hide all evidence, because I'd shoot the bastard who did it. 12 times or so.

I am not a wuss but my 3-year old daughter is. If I feel a dog is threatening us it is going down. If the owner thinks his dog is more important than my daughter I recommend he inform me of this in a very non-threatening manner. In Texas we have the right to defend ourselves from threats.
<img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

-Blast

I'd have a hard time shooting a dog that was 20' away from me. I might rethink that if it showed signs of being rabid, or if there were more than one. Of course, once my ankle is in his mouth then all bets are off. <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I own a dog that I love dearly, but I would never even think about getting into a gunfight with somebody who shot him in self defense, misguided though they might be. People who would should seriously reconsider whether they should be carrying a gun at all.

Actually, I think people panic too much with dogs. Even the biggest dog is likely to be smaller than the average male, and unless a trained attack dog (and they should be better controlled) will just bite whatever it sees first then hang on. Give it a stick or (in extremis) a forearm to commit the teeth and then bringing it down is just a matter of putting your weight on it. I've brought down a rottweiler using the stick and a sort of bodyslam/pin which held it until the owner arrived. I prefer to use the same principle I use for H2H fighting - wait until conflict is inevitable, then unleash hell. I'd argue it is the same with armed response to dogs as humans - once you feel physical assault is inevitable, attack hard and fast.

Like most conflict it is the attitude (sheer ferocity on the dogs part) that panics people, and from there they tend to get attacked (combination of showing fear, running and kicking, which tends to topple them with the dog on top).

Of course I have some advantages with my size and some martial arts training, but then I live in a country which won't let me carry a knife, gun or pepper spray, but does have a lot of dogs.

I have no children. My dogs are my children, and I'd defend (or avenge) them te same as anyone would his own child. I'd probably end up in jail, but so be it.

I got in the mifddle of two big dogs once, trying to break up a fight. Once the chow had been kicked in the ribs a few times, he broke off the fight and high-tailed it. A dog, no matter how big is no match for a grown man. There are other ways to handle the situation. If attacked, beat the dog with a stick, go find the owner and shoot him, not the dog.

The average adult male may be bigger than the average dog however again I state that I'm concerned for the safety of my child. A 3-yr old Chinese girl is significantly smaller than most dogs. To think only adult males get attacked by dogs shows a very large lack of awareness.

As for sticking one's forearm into the mouth of the dog. You are welcome to do that but I'll stick to using a different sort of 'armed' response. If a loose, growling dog gets within 10-15 feet after my repeated attempts to scare it off anything I do next is justified. This is assuming I am not tresspassing somewhere but in a public street/park where leash-laws are in effect.

-Blast

Re-read my post. I can't carry a gun, or pepper spray. So I have to use what methods I have available. I'm not going to sit there getting bitten while lamenting the laws that stop me being armed.

I don't claim this is ideal or for everyone - but I don't think a 3 year old is going to be able to pull a Glock either, unless your local gun laws are really lax :-)

And I too have a child, a 4 year old, and I don't take their safety lightly. Its my job to keep between them and the predator. But I think the principles and attitudes you apply to human predators make a good rule of thumb - avoid it if you can, fight like hell when it arrives. And an attacking dog is not a grizzly bear - if you keep your nerve most people bring significant attributes to the conflict, the most important ones being size, intelligence and the ability to have a logical gameplan.

So as an adult male, living where I do, this is my response.

One of my best friends was my purebred German Shepherd that weighed about 105+ lbs on any given day. He was adopted from an animal shelter at approximately the age of 6 or 7. They weren't sure of his exact age, as he was found wandering around in a neighboring town by animal control.

He loved to ride in the car and was very easygoing and calm. In fact, he was the only dog NOT barking and going nuts when we walked in the shelter. That's how I knew he was a great dog.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) German Shepherds are a pretty intelligent breed. He watched me operate the fence latch a couple of times and that was all it took. Walked in the door one day, went into the backyard to greet him, and he was gone. He decided he would rather roam the neighborhood in the daytime. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> A padlock on the latch quickly solved that.

Okay, I am getting long-winded. I've been around plenty of dogs and I'm a dog lover. But I've been hiking before and some moron decides to let their dog run out far ahead of them on the trail. Sometimes it makes for a little "pucker factor" coming around a blind corner. I like when dogs can run free, too, but as others have mentioned, there are only stupid OWNERS.

If someone had shot my dog when he decided to sneak out and roam the neighborhood, I'd be pissed. But his responsibility was still on my shoulders. I just underestimated his IQ (dogs are probably smarter than us anyways).

On the other hand, if I encountered a dog being overly aggressive and wanted to bite, I would defend myself. Whether that's pepper spray, a large stick, a close-by rock, or a .40 S&W round. I'm not going to be crippled or dead because someone decided to let Rover roam free that day. I wouldn't fault anyone else for doing the same thing.

(p.s. - that "Dog Whisperer" show is great if you get a chance to watch it.)

"...Its my job to keep between them and the predator..."

Very true. Now, let assume that one is driving down the street and sees someone else, kid or adult, in the jaws of a pit bull or rot. Now what do we do? I know what I would do, but I can legally carry a firearm...

Did anyone ever see that video of a Los Angeles County dogcatcher (female) with one hand and one breast in the jaws of a pit bull? Punchered her breast several times and crushed her hand. Neigbor guy tried to beat the dog off with a large stick, didn't faze the dog at all...

God, I love Texas!!!!
<img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

-Blast

See below:
Observation #1: staying out of the dog's yard will reduce your chances of fatal injury by more than 50%
Observation #2. Castrated dogs are more mellow than intact dogs. Go figure.

http://www.fataldogattacks.com/statistics.html
"FATAL DOG ATTACKS"
The Stories Behind the Statistics
by Karen Delise

THE STATISTICS - FATAL DOG ATTACKS IN THE U.S. FROM 1965 - 2001 *

The study covers 431 documented human fatalities from a dog attack.

Location of Attack
25% of all fatal attacks were inflicted by chained dogs
25% resulted from dogs loose in their yard
23% occurred inside the home
17% resulted from attacks by dogs roaming off their property
10% involved leashed dogs or miscellaneous circumstances

Number of Dogs
68% of all fatal attacks were inflicted by a single dog
32% was the result of a multiple dog attack

Victim Profile
79% of all fatal attacks were on children under the age of 12
12% of the victims were the elderly, aged 65 - 94
9% of the victims were 13 - 64 years old

The age group with the highest number of fatalities were children under the age of 1 year old; accounting for 19% of the deaths due to dog attack. Over 95% of these fatalities occurred when an infant was left unsupervised with a dog(s).

The age group with the second-highest number of fatalities were 2-year-olds; accounting for 11% of the fatalities due to dog attack. Over 87% of these fatalities occurred when the 2-year-old child was left unsupervised with a dog(s) or the child wandered off to the location of the dog(s).

Boys aged 1 - 12 years old were 2.5 times more likely to be the victim of a fatal dog attack than girls of the same age.

Breeds Involved
Pit Bull and Pit-bull-type dogs (21%), Mixed breed dogs (16%),
Rottweilers (13%), German Shepherd Dogs (9%), Wolf Dogs (5%),
Siberian Huskies (5%), Malamutes (4%), Great Danes (3%),
St. Bernards (3%), Chow Chows (3%), Doberman Pinschers (3%),
other breeds & non-specified breeds (15%).

Reproductive Status of Dogs
Overwhelmingly, the dogs involved in fatal dog attacks were unaltered males.
From 2000-2001 there were 41 fatal dog attacks. Of these, 28 were attacks by a single dog and 13 fatalities were caused by multiple dogs.

Yep, don't know how lucky you are. Our gun crime levels are lower over here, but the inability to carry a decent blade or keep a weapon in the house is mighty frustrating.

Still, we get the nice British weather and a monarchy.....

"Castrated dogs are more mellow than intact dogs"---haha isnt it the truth. my gramps had a dog ,we got him fixed, and almost automatically became mellow and before the dog was bouncing around everywhere. I feel bad for fixed dogs.....i'd hate to be them.haha

but like ive said before the chances are slim that youll get attacked, i dont care what statistics say. but if you keep believing your going to get attacked well then soon your brain will listen to you and trouble comes looking for your call. if you get bit well then big deal,pain and crazy situations happen during lifebut dont be bugged out by them. i knew who friend who was like this and i turned him away from being afraid about everything.
sorry for the little spiel(or whoever you say that.lol)

Hot topic eh?

Well, fwiw, my experience with dogs is that when the fight is on, they are quite a formidable opponent. For dogs averaging 80 to 130 lbs, especially those bred for fighting, an unarmed man is no real match. We simply don't have the tools to inflict the kind of damage they're capable of in close quarters.

In a truly serious confrontation, I doubt you'd have had much opportunity to draw and fire. Had that dog really intended to attack, rather than simply challenge you, there simply wouldn't have been enough time to react. Having watched how bulldogs and rottweilers deal with 600 lb feral hogs, and witnessed police dogs taking down an assailant with prejudice, my impression is they are far better equipped for a fracas than any man. Yes, dogs can be disabled and even dispatched by hand, if you know what you are doing and are lucky. I'd use whatever I have at hand, but I'd prefer a 44 mag if I really wanted to be sure of stopping them in their tracks.

Pepper spray is one of those items that can be held in the hand whilst strolling about without too much inconvenience or without appearing a threat to innocent passerby. If you get the right configuration, it is fairly effective in most situations and easily deployable. In this day and age, unless you can be certain of the environment, young children have no business being out on their own unsupervised. It is a good way to lose a kid, regardless the predator. If they are too young to be able to reliably operate a defensive mechanism on their own with a little training, then they are too young to be out on their own. Naive parents promote a fair amount of Darwinism by trying to enforce a concept that is inconsistent with this reality, in that their offspring tend not to survive as much.

Probably the best defense against a dog attack is likely another dog, preferably one more capable of it than the one you are threatened by. Trained well, a guard/attack dog that is under direct control poses virtually no threat to others, while providing an exceptional level of defense against 4 legged and two legged predators and instigators. It is a sad rebuke that most dog owners just don't take the time to learn the proper care control over man's best friend.

Which brings up the issue of dog owners who insist on letting their dogs out in public without maintaining direct control over them. People who say they KNOW their dog will do this or not do that are living in an illusion. I've met no one who can speak dog, or who can read a dog's mind. To make such a statement that they might KNOW what their dog will or won't do in a given situation is nonsensical and indicates an irresponsible behavior for which they inevitably will be held accountable for, either in losing their pet, or in subsequent litigation, or both. No dog is worth innocent human life. What happens when the dog they KNOW so well up and bites somebody, as one of mine did? They pay the medical bill, go to court, and put the dog down themselves (or pay someone else to do it if they don't have the stomach for it). To have an unrestrained dog out in public is akin to driving at speed down the freeway and taking your hands off the wheel. I've yet to meet a dog that couldn't be coaxed into biting somehow, and no matter what the provocation, the dog and their owner will be held accountable for the act of the dog, unless it is in the capacity of an LEO. Sometimes we take privilege way too far, and others pay a great price for it.

So what to do about the threat? Don't go places where the potential is significant without being prepared for it. Don't count on the owners being able or willing to command their dog not to attack. Public shooting is extreme; the use of deadly force is facing ever increasing scrutiny, as discharging a firearm in public will almost certainly put you at a big disadvantage later on. Deterrent is preferable, and may be in the form of pepper spray, one of those fancy whistles or ultrasonic transmitters that seems to distract challenging dogs, or maybe just a good piece of hickory. If you are full grown and of decent stature, and find yourself in unarmed conflict, I find that staying on top of the dog by grappling him and sprawling over him tends to thwart most of his agility. You are still going to get bit, but if you can keep him under you, you have more options. If you get on your back, you are going to be a lot more vulnerable.

I was out hunting with a friend and his big German wire haired pointer decided he didn't like me so much and snapped on my off hand. After the owner called him to heal, I tackled the mutt and put my forearm on his chin and laid my weight on him for a good five minutes. When he quit struggling against me and nipping me (I got ahold of an ear and put and end to the nips), he finally gave a big sigh and I let him up, still holding him by the collar. Since I wasn't beating on him my pal wasn't so concerned about the commotion, and after I let the dog up and talked to him for a bit, he got the pecking order right from then on. That was dealing with a challenge, which was different from how I would deal with an outright attack. You're not going to subdue an attacking dog, only deter them or disable them.

Animal abuse is unacceptable behavior. Neglect comes in many forms. People who neglect the safety and welfare of their pets by allowing them to roam free in public are in my opinion no better than those who would tie up a dog and beat it or starve it. There is no legitimate reason why any dog cannot be properly restrained and led in public, those who refuse it are just plain lazy at best and at worst willing imbeciles. To my mind they're just trying to foist off their responsibility onto the general public, and the poor pet is the ultimate loser. If you love your dog so much, then take the trouble of caring for him as if you actually do. I guarantee he won't mind it one bit.

i agree.animal abuse is horrible, ive seen that show on tv where the animal cops go looking for abused animals and you wouldnt believe what people do to their animals,some of the stuff is undescribable and almost pure evil.it sad.
ive seen abused animals at shelters and at a veterenarian(while i interned) and i always said if i ever saw the people who did what they did to the animals that i would beat the crap out of them and make sure they pay for what they did.

I havn't read this whole thread, -so I don't know if someone has already said it.

But in Defending yourself from, and Battling a Dog, -I'd say the Keymost things to Get At!, -are its Legs and / or Eyes.(I'm referring to when using a Stick or other Club, -not with a Gun as you describe. Where of course you'd have to go with the Largest / Most Accessable, part of its Body). With the greater emphasis on Legs. One to Four of them. For without Legs, -the Animal of course can only lay there, -Unable to attack. Injuring them, rather than "removing" them, should suffice.

I do Really Hate to be or Sound Brutal so!, to an Animal. But of course in this case, -it could be a matter of "Him or You"!....

(As I intend to say in some future Signature, -mayswell take the occassion to give some Preview, -"Its Not the Size of the Dog in the Fight!, -But rather the Fight in the Dog!" I Like that one!). [color:"black"] [/color] [email]Nomad[/email]

"Two dogs mauled a child to death and injured his mother in northeast Harris County on Tuesday, officials told KPRC Local 2.

Harris County sheriff's deputies said the pair was attacked in the 8900 block of C.E. King Parkway near Fern Forest Drive at about 1:25 p.m.

Officials said a 4-year-old boy was walking with his 2-year-old brother when the dogs attacked. The mother saw what was happening and was mauled when she tried to get the dogs off the children, investigators said.

The 4-year-old boy was transported by medical helicopter to Memorial Hermann Hospital, where he died a short time later. The 2-year-old was not injured.

The mother suffered serious injuries.

Deputies shot both dogs, killing one. Animal control officials took the other.

The identity of the owner of the dogs has not yet been determined."

Should the cops tried to make nice with these dogs instead of shooting them? Maybe offer them some kibble and a nice comfy cushion? <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

-Blast

"...Deputies shot both dogs, killing one..."

Too bad they didn't get the second one too...

i hope your not trying to make me look bad......

and i said if you get bit....i never said anything about getting mauled or killed. it was a defenless child, adults should be able to defend themselves but sometimes that doesnt happen they way we want it too.im pointing out that if you get attacked theres no reason to be paranoid for your whole life. my cuz got bit by a chow and has a scar from it, but he doesnt worry about getting bit again.

its sad this happen. i dont know the cause of the dogs attacking,perhaps they were rabid,maybe they have bad owners or whatvever. but its sad.

I was just quoting you. Your posts gave a strong indication that you thought being attacked by a dog was no big deal and that killing an attacking dog was wrong. For instance:

Basically, I'm trying to get you to "think outside the box" to borrow a very tired phrase. Not everyone is a "bad MF" out of a Voodoo Skulls song. Your experiences make you think that dog attacks are rare and simple to handle. In reality much evidence states otherwise.

-Blast

attacking a dog under certain situations....it all depends.i know someone who said if a dog ever came running toward him,he'd shoot and kill it. thats not the way i think....the way he nadles thing are rash. i know it sounds odd and cocky but i know how to handle dogs...yes even some wild ones. i can make them calm down. but if a dog is coming at me and clearly is looking to take a chomp or two then im ready to defend myself. i wont kill the dog but subdue him and let animal control handle it.i dont like hurting animals so thats why i would do that...killing a dog....idk if i could kill one unless someone i knew was about to die or some other extreme situation.i dont want to blow the dogs brains out though.

and i know how to think outside the box:in any type of discussion i believe its important to see all sides of the story even if it means proving myself wrong.

i respect your opinon and understand what your saying.

This adult wasn't "...able to defend themselves..."

In a one on one (or more, if you are really unlucky, as this woman was) fight, the average adult will come out second best to a 100+ pound dog. But you are welcome to your opinion and belief...

i know the adult wasnt able to.



you are too.and i respect everyones

I like dogs, but growing up on a farm I have had to put more then my fair share down for a long list of reasons. One of the things that really griped my back side was when the “city” people would get tired of their dog or it would start to get “mean” and they would dump it. It is truly amazing how fast a domesticated dog will revert back to its hard wired behavior and start to hunt in packs and start to bring down livestock.
The local sheriffs department would do nothing about it but make out a report and tell you tuff luck.

When I got new neighbors who had a pit-bull I was less then thrilled. When they would let the dog out it would come over to my yard and stand on my porch and bark at us in the house. After making several complaints to John Q Law and being told that they could do nothing unless the dog bit one of us, I spoke with the neighbor. After a few weeks of not seeing the dog I figured that they had got rid of it, but Ohhh no they just stopped letting it out to heed Mother Nature’s call. All last winter I did not see the dog and then this spring their it was, back in my yard crapping and on my porch barking. So I talked to them again and was told it was a good dog, that it was real friendly and would “never bite” to cut this short when the dog had my kids on top of their swing set growling and jumping up trying to bite them I shot the dog.

I don’t think they were happy when I did it due to the fact they were out side standing there, and when I pulled it over to their yard so they could dispose of it I was called a long list of obstinacies and a murder (which made me laugh) So now to the moral of the story, I don’t want to have to kill some dog, but when it comes to the value of a human life, my kids, mine or any one else the dog will lose.

As for subduing the dog not a chance unless you think lead is a for of subduing .
That’s why animal control officers use long catch poles, so they don’t have to get that close, and most of the time there is an officer ready to shoot the dog if it gets to “out of control”

Supermark, you are making yourself look bad.

Have you ever watched what a police canine can do? That is an animal who's instincts have been trained DOWN. They aren't trained in how to take someone down, that is instict, but they are trained to control it and to just hold on when they have you down, rather than going for your face or throat or belly. K9s are a lot more mellow than your average house dog.

I would say that you should spend some time in the dummy suit as part of K9 training. And remember that the dog that is using you as a tackling dummy is a trained professional who is conditioned to not kill. The typical dog that attacks is untrained and is unconditioned, there is no "slow", there is no "stop", there is no "wait for the command to take them down", there is simply "kill". Kill at all costs, no stopping, no slowing, no waiting, that is how canines attack. It isn't going to pull you down and go back to it's handler, an "amature" is going to pull you down and try to tear out your throat.

I think you need to spend some time around dogs, and I don't mean the inbreed show pooches that are smaller than my cat. A single feral dog (ie, domesticate but no longer living with humans) can cripple a cow or horse in a few minutes, and they can run faster than we humans can, kick a lot harder and are a lot thicker skinned. Ignoring that fact is living in a dream world.

As for not carring what the statistics say, you obviously are ignorant of the fact that stats reflect the behaviors of a system or process. You can use them to bend the truth, true, but you can't lie with them.

dude whatever. u have no idea

idk why u keep doing this anyway. i said i respect your opinion and i dont go attacking your views, you are the one who started attacking anyway. and thats it. were arguing over something stupid and wasting valuable space on these forums. ive seen the ugly side of dogs believe me, i used to do volunteer work at a vet clinic and what i saw sometimes wasnt pretty and seen/heard stuff that no one should know.ive been around giant dogs that wanna rip my arm off because the stupid owner didnt give a crap about the dog and turned the dog into a beast.all i said was my opinion and thats it if you dont like it than deal with it, cause im not going to attack your opinion because i respect your opinions, you do what you do with dog attacks and ill do what i do.yes dog attacks happen ,i look at the stats and analyze them so i can see your opininon, and i see what your trying to get across.


One more thing, all this is just water under the bridge. So I dont want to escalate this like so many other forums on the net do.So now im going to go back to these forums and talk about survial and prepardness and chat with all the members,so we can futher the knowledge we have on all the subjects. So I respect your opinion , ive seen your views and stats and God Bless You All.

In your experience, it may be that the dogs you've encountered and dealt with would lead you to make such a general statement that you could handle and control any dog attack. Unless you are built like a 500 lb gorilla with 6 inch fangs, I must inform you that there are many dogs out there that you would positively not be able to control, that would probably kill you inside of 15 seconds, or make you wish you were dead by then. I've met some, and I can't imagine anyone who could stand up to them were they triggered for an attack.

Until you've seen the full on capabilities of dogs that are bred and trained to attack humans, you really can't make such a claim, and having met some of them, I have a seriously difficult time believing the veracity of such statements. The facts simply indicate to the contrary.

If a fighting dog really wants to take you apart and he has the jump on you, he's going to have his way, and there's really nothing you can do about it. That is not opinion my friend, it is fact.

One, I think you are confusing me with Blast.

Two, don't "dude" me, boy. I am not one of your "peeps" or "hommies" or anything even remotely close.

I am telling you these things becuase you seem to be operating under some very dangerous delusions. Dangerous not only to yourself, but to others should you ever have children. If you don't want to listen, that's fine. But when OBG talks about dogs, you should listen, he's seen police trained dogs up close; Benjammin has seen the military version. I've watch dogs running deer, attack horses, seen the aftermath of them attacking sheep and cows, and have a very nice set of scars on my ankle from one that took a lot of convincing (ie, kicks to the head) to let go of my boot while my foot was still in it. And that doesn't include the rabid feral that needed three loads of buckshot to stop charging and a fourth to finally stop trying and just die, which is enough to stop pretty much any human. (BTW, before you question my accuracy, when the report got back to me, the warden pointed out that not only were there three wads in the critter, but that it is easier to run the tests if there isn't lead in the skull.)

So I think my "whatever" is worth a lot more than your cousin getting a love nip from a chow that was easily chased off. If the chow had been serious, it wouldn't have been chased off. It is like comparing bumper cars to a being in multi-car pileup.

Interesting numbers, but you are only looking at fatalities. Does the report also include perminant, serious injury? Those numbers should be listed; being blinded, or losing a hand, or half your face, or having major nerve and muscle damage in your leg or arm is more traumatizing in the long run than dieing is.

i listen but i dont think your listening either.dont tell me what i know or dont know, you dont know squat about me or what i know so dont question my knowledge. yes hooray for you all and your expert knowledge on attack dogs, im proud you all further your knowledge on such subjects. you are blowing this thing way out of proportion,it was a simple discussion and now its just stupid.
plus this was no little love nip from the chow.so stop the prejudgement of what happen please.you know nothing about what happen in that situation and i dont have to explain myself and what happen to complete strangers.

so stop acting like you know everything about me ,cause your not even close. i wanted to make peace with you but it seems like you dont want to. i was also referring to blast too.
i still respect your opinion and God Bless.How do you know that in not listening to you?huh?you dont know.i spoke my opinion as did you.i heard you and analyzed and i understand what your trying to say.

I still respect everyones opinion and God Bless.
This is all water under the bridge now.I dont want to argue anymore over some stupid discussion that should of ended a long time ago and that was blown out of proportion because i spoke my opinion.this discussion has gone off topic too much and needs to be back on topic.this topic doesnt even concern me that much as do other topics,i dont even care about it that much as much you all do. I spoke my opinion and thats it.End of story!

Re: that dog attack in Houston:

'The boy's mother heard her son's screams and ran outside to find him being attacked by the pit bulls...

'...Pedro was playing with his 2-year-old brother in a cul-de-sac near their home... '

Irresponsible dog owners + irresponsible parents ... what a great recipe for disaster.

This woman didn't have a clue as to where her two little kids were, or what they were doing, or what dangers they were facing. They could just as easily have been picked up by child molesters or run over by a car. If the kids hadn't screamed, how long would it have taken her to realize that something was wrong? Hours?

If parents want to reduce the chances of their kids (esp toddlers) drowning, getting kidnapped, injured or killed, then they're going to have to take some responsibility for them, aren't they?

The victims of most dog attacks are children 10 and younger, with 2 years of age being the optimum (!) age for dog attacks. Most of the victims have been left alone with the dogs.

When something happens to a child, the one sentence that you hear over and over is: "But I just left him alone for a couple of seconds". And it's a lie. The number of parents who have no idea where their little kids are at any given moment is astounding.

If parents don't want their child attacked by dogs, try this:

1 - Don't leave your child alone with your dog, the neighbor's dog, or ANY dog.

2 - Teach your children not to abuse dogs. I wonder how many dog bites started with a pulled ear or tail?

3 - Teach your children not to run up to any dog, strange dogs especially. I am constantly amazed how often the idiot parents allow and encourage this.

4 - Got a dog? Get it spayed or neutered. Most dogs who attack are unneutered males. Don't want to neuter the poor little guy? Try growing a brain -- no one is suggesting YOU get neutered.

5 - Know your local dangers. Got neighbors with pits or rotties or other aggressive dogs? Tell them that the first time their dog gets into your yard, he's dead, and all the crying and whining isn't going to bring him back.

6 - Keep your children confined to your property. Got a fence? Use it and childproof the gates. Don't have one? Install one. Can't install one due to covenants? Move.

7 - Know where your kids are... ALL the time. They've learned how to open the front door? Install a chain lock and use it religiously.

8 - Live in CA or TX? They're the #1 and #2 dog attack/fatality states in the entire country, and have been since 1965.

Most dog attacks of children are preventable... their parents just didn't care enough to do the job.

Sue

You go girl!!!

I agree that irresponsible parents are just as guilty of child abuse as irresponsible pet owners are of animal abuse. Neglect, in either case, is just as bad as deliberate acts of violence or deprivation.

The only thing to change in the past two hundred years regarding the security of our communities is the perpetuation of the illusion that our community and our home is in fact secure. For some reason, there are an ever greater number of us who seem to think that an ordered community is inherently safe. That assumption may actually have just the opposite effect.

Good cue on perspective there Susan!

1. Disengage if you can.
2. If not, warning shot - if you have time. This usually spooks the dog off.
3. Dog continues to be aggressive - one shot, center of mass.
4. High-tail it out of the immediate vicinity and call police from another location. Removes you from aggressive owner, lets LEO handle the situation of the dog attack/ shot being fired. 5. Tell police the truth - cooperate, you've done nothing wrong if your state allows you to protect yourself with a firearm, carry concealed, etc. If your state does not allow you to protect yourself with a firearm, move to one that does - the crime rate will be much lower there!

By the way - take your weapon and put it away (in your car, house, etc.) before police arrive so they don't shoot the "man with the gun" ! They may want it later, but that's fine. You may need a lawyer - YMMV.