I am the organizer of the Seattle backpackers Meetup Group we have over 470 members and go on more than 12 trips/get togethers a month. I have been a member of Equipped for a few years. My original membership was a few years ago and I updated a couple years ago. I have posted a few personal things on the forums and have always received down home answers….that said please help.

As mentioned we have about 12 trips a month and we also have about 8 organizers helping out with that.

Today for the first time we lost a member in the typical scenario. I wasn’t on this hike but 2 of the other organizers were. She got separated from the group when she went off trail to relieve herself. All other hikers from the group passed her by. When she came to a fork in the road she took the wrong turn. It was raining and cold…40’s. She was lost for about 2 hours. Everyone else made it back to the parking lot from this day hike and she was no where to be found.

The organizers did the right thing. Tried her cell, called the S&R to put them on notice and started trying to figure it out. After an hour they finally got through to her cell and generally located her position by dumb luck.

I received a call a few minutes after the group realized she was lost. I looked at her hiking history with our group and realized she has been on more than 15 trips with us and many overnights. This was my first sigh of relief. At least I knew she wasn’t a newbie. By conformation of the organizers at the trail head I knew she was dressed VERY well for conditions.

By conversation with her and others after she was found she was very scared. Again very well equipped (thank god) and scared just the same.

So to the point. We have 8 organizers as well as 470 members the majority of which are fairly new to the backpacking sport. Winter is coming up so I would like to do a few things and am asking all of you very knowledgeable people for help.

What sort of winter (cascade and rocky) safety do you think I should introduce to these people?

I am personally very capable of starting a fire in most conditions but please help me outline a course or help me point these people in the right direction for starting a fire basics.

Do you know any good story web sites I can send out that outline the dangers of hiking in cold/wet weather?

I really am just at a loss as to where to start on educating 470 people on proper safety this winter and actually having them pay attention.

Please help.

I don’t want to be a jerk and post my web site but if you google “Seattle backpackers” we are the first link and I am Cameron.

Thanks for any advice on keeping 470 people safe.

Cameron Ownbey

Please look on this ETS-link. It covers the basics:

http://www.equipped.org/srvskl.htm

Awesom...Forgot that was here. With Mr. Ritters permission I may use this. Will email him tomorrow.

Thanks

Cameron

" Do you know any good story web sites I can send out that outline the dangers of hiking in cold/wet weather?"


Here is a link to a sad story that graphically outlines the dangers. Have them give it a read--it is very sobering.

Good article, but a GPS by itself won't do squat if you don't use it before you get lost. I've got a mapping Garmin GPS V for my car and a non-mapping unit for hiking. Non-mapping GPS receivers such as my Geko 301 are small and less pricey, and can be used to mark where your car is parked, turnpoints and other features that will get you home. But you need to use it before you get lost.

Having a map with the GPS and knowing how to plot your UTM posit on the map is even better. But you still need to use it before you get lost. It's not like emergency gear that you only break out when you're in trouble. It's gear to use every time you go for a walk. Staying found is much better than getting found.

Mapping models are better, but they're usually bigger, cost more and you still need to know where you want to go on that map relative to where it shows you to be. Without terrain features (topo map in the GPS), it might be better to mark waypoints like you need to do with a non-mapping GPS rcvr. $.02

Have everyone read "To Build A Fire" by Jack London.
It drives home the point of needing to stay warm and dry as well as making a fire in winter conditions.
Oh and it is a classic.

A good source of information on using Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) coordinates is http://www.maptools.com . That sight also sells very nice UTM grids at reasonable prices.

My advice would be to make sure each hiker has a topo map of the area with UTM coordinate drawn on it, a UTM grid (either on the compass or a separate one), a decent compass with the knowledge to adjust for magnetic declination (17.5 degrees East in Seattle area), and a GPS with fresh batteries and the knowledge to use it along with the map & compass. The idea would be for them to enter waypoints for key locations (starting point, ending point, etc...) BEFORE the hike even starts.

If lost, they could use the GPS to determine where they are, then use the UTM coordinates from the GPS to determine their location on the map, and then give that coordinate to rescuers or use the GPS and the map to track their way back to where they need to be.

When in the field I carry the Garmin Geko 201 because it is tiny, lightweight, stores waypoints, shows my current location, AND allows me to connect it to my computer for pre-loading of waypoints. For that I use some nice software called ExpertGPS (http://www.expertgps.com for $60 - stores GPS waypoints and also provides on-line Topo maps and aerial photos).

For maps I have been buying from USGS, but recently started ordering weatherproof/tearproof USGS topo maps from http://www.mytopo.com .

If you can get mapping software to print out maps that preserve the 1:24,000 scale, that is good too, but I've had trouble with that so I buy pre-printed maps.

All of this assumes that the hiker is in a condition (physically or mentally) to walk out of their situation. They need to be equipped to handle the other scenario where they need to stay put and wait for rescue. That is where the gear recommended by Doug Ritter is critical. As general advice for a large group of hikers, my advice would be to tell them to purchase the Doug Ritter Personal Survival Pak and then suppliment it with the items recommended in the bonus materials:

>Folding knife w/ locking blade and at least a 2.5 in blade that has one-handed opening
>Pocket-sized personal shelter such as a space blanket, bivvy sack, large bags, poncho
>Pocket-sized or key-chain LED flashlight w/ constant-on switch
>First aid kit: such as the AMK Pocket Medic or Ultralight .5
>Personal supply of Water, such as a Nalgene water bottle with Katadyn Micropur MP1 purification tablets
>Personal medications (rotate regularly)
>Waterproof matches and/or lighter, such as the REI Waterproof matches in a waterproof case or a mini Bic lighter
>Personal Locator Beacon, IF it can be afforded
>>In addition, I'd recommend making sure you have a large highly visible "flag". This could be some bright orange plastic bags , an orange poncho, or similar. Just anything to make you more visible through the trees.

And as always,
>Leave trip plan left with a responsible person and stick to the plan
>Travel with a companion
>Dress or take clothing for the weather

Finally, this gear should be with them on their person at ALL times - even when "just" going into the woods to relieve themselves or looking for firewood. A fanny pack would work well for this. Putting this gear in their backpacks is not enough. There are plenty of stories of people who are separated from their packs for one reason or another (falls, floods, etc...).

Long time lurker, new member on the forums!!! I love all the great info I have recieved from the forum members, a sincere thanks to all those who contribute....

So back to the question at hand.

The best advice I can give, to add to what has already been posted, is that when hiking/camping/climbing/etc. one of the simplest things to do/remember is to assign everyone a "buddy". The military refers to this as a "battle buddy", I can't remember what we called it in the boyscouts, and at the PD we call it a "back/partner". It is an essential safety measure.

Essentially you divide the hiking/camping/etc. group up into pairs, if there is an odd number, assign 3 to one group.

These "buddies" should get to know eachother a little bit before embarking on the journey. Introduce yourself, discuss what equipment you are carrying, your experience, any relevant medical history/conditions and/or medications that you must take (diabetic/asthmatic/etc.) and where those emergency medications are kept on your person/pack. Although friends and family members will likely pair up themselves, this is a good way to get to know a new person.

When venturing off on the trail, going to the restroom, beginning a new hike after a night in camp, etc. It is each person's duty to inform their "buddy" where they are going and when they will return. If the pair ventures off together, they should notify someone in another "pair" that they are breaking away from the group for "x" reason and will return in "x" time. This helps to avoid the "group-think" mentality that so often happens where everyone just assumes that someone else knows where they are, what they are doing, and will call for help if they are missing.

This is great advice for any weather conditon, and can mean the difference between life and death in extream (hot/cold) environments. I also recommend using the "buddy system" when on a school trip, day-care outing, etc.

Had this "buddy system" been in place during your example above, that person would never have been "left behind" by the group.

Best of luck and keep on enjoying the great outdoors.

-Silent

Many years ago when I was a scoutmaster I would take all the boys (we had only boys then) on a duck hike. The prerequisites for the hike is that it hade to be raining and cold, cold around here in the mountains is 40-50 deg.during the fall. During this hike All boys were to start a fire using anything they had in there pack, they could not use other boys equipment or help. In addition to the boys we would have about 4or5 park rangers who just did not believe the boys could do it. They were proven wrong about 18 time every year (Or the number of boys that I had with me that trip.) As far a training goes I personally would start with the Boy Scout Handbook, To this day it is one of my favorite field books, and is carried in my pack.

The question was what material and how to get folks to pay attention.

I fear that getting their attention is the hardest part. The "duck hike" was a great idea for scouts but I expect that adults probably won't go along with it - you'd have to be too much the drill-sergeant to get them to actually do it. And the bellyaching you'd hear if one failed!

If everyone is along voluntarily about all you can do is set a good example, offer good material, and then talk up the preparedness status along the way with what-ifs. OR you can do a gear check and turn away the slackers. That's really tough to do.

In emphasizing filing a travel plan I constantly refer to the "really sharp knife" (that Aron Ralston wishes he had when he had to cut his arm off in Blue John Canyon) as the alternative approach..... gets grins but probably doesn't get anybody to file travel plans.

I dunno. Humans- pain in the butt critters.... hard to herd.

(I'm the "Hiking and Preparedness" instructor for a group of Aviation Archeologists.)

Her biggest mistake was the first one - wandering off alone. Other people have commented on that. On that score, nuff said.

An excellent primer for map reading is the current U.S. Army issue manual. That can be downloaded as a PDF from the Cammega website. 20MB file. Written for both the complete neophyite mapreader and the more advanced user. Recommended.

Cameron,

I'm glad your group member turned up ok.

I have no experience in hiking in your neck of the woods (summer or winter) so I have nothing to offer of value to your situation other than a question:

Would this individual have benefited from having a quad map of the area and maybe a small gps unit?

I don't head into an area (familiar or not) without at least one quad map of the area. In the past, I've gotten the quads ajoining my target area just in case I wandered off the map.

Maybe an offering of orienteering skills inservice taught by a local Boy Scout (working on a community service merit badge) might be of some interest to some folks in your group. I know I desperately need to brush up on some skills.

I don’t know how your group hikes are run – Are the organizers typically leading the way, with most of the other people not really paying much attention to the route?

GPS units and topo maps for everyone in the group may not be practical. However, the organizers should at least hand out simple photocopied trail maps with the day’s route highlighted and turns marked. When I’m out with even one other person and I’m doing the navigating, I like to think out loud (ie “Oh, here’s where the red trail splits off from the blue trail we’re on. We’ll follow it for a mile where we should hit the yellow trail.”)

The buddy system already mentioned is a good idea for a large group. And it sounds like you already make sure everyone is accounted for when the hike is over – well done!

A whistle might have been heard before the group got too far away.

Have a plan for what to do if you get separated – If you think you’re lost, stop and wait for us to find you. If you guessed at which fork to take and think you might have guessed wrong, backtrack to that point and wait there.

Just curious, but an account of what the lost person did during those two hours might be interesting and instructive.

I will be seeing her on next monday at our monthly meeting. I was going to ask her then. When she has had a little time to calm down what she did while she was lost.

Cameron Ownbey

samhain,

I am pretty sure she didn't have a map and or compass. We as a group have always insisted hikers carry 10 essentials and that includes a map and compass. To this point we have just taken peoples word on having a map. All organizers are having a meeting Tomorrow night so we can discuss this situation and I am sure part of the solution will be us starting to check and make sure people have maps.

So to answer the question yes if she had a map she probably would have been lost for a lot less time.

Cameron Ownbey

Thanks for the web site but I can't seem to find it. Do you know the URL?

Thanks

Cameron Ownbey

This rather lenghty thingy should lead you there...
http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynamic/o...26%2Findex.html

If that doesn't work, just do a goodle search for fm 3-25.26, that will lead you to it.

Personally, unless they have changed the manual since the 60's, I don't consider it worth much in the civilian world. If you don't have a GI lensatic compass, with mils and all that, it isn't worth much. Your good old Boy Scout Handbook ('specially one from the 60's or 70's) is better...

"GPS units and topo maps for everyone in the group may not be practical"

A basic Garmin Geko 101 and the yellow Garmin eTrex cost well under $100 these days. The Geko 202 costs just over $100.

A USGS 7.5 minute topo map costs only $6 from USGS.

A Suunto M-3 compass with adjustable declination costs only $20.

Combined GPS & compass weight is only 4.7 oz.

Ask the person who got lost if she'd have been willing to pay $126 to know exactly where she was AND how to get to the parking lot on her own.

Maybe I'm totally out of focus here, but... when your people are traveling, do they ever mark the trail? It seems to me that a 4" piece of orange surveyor's tape could have prevented the whole incident.

Sue

Back when I used to lead large group hikes, we had a leader in front and a sweep in back. Both had usually prehiked the trail in advance, within a few weeks of the hike. Persons leaving the trail for 'personal business" or any other reason, were asked to leave a pack or jacket or something very visible on the side of the trail. The sweep was to wait at the marker until the person reappeared. The sweep passed no one of the group on the trail.
Group members ALL got copies of the hike directions and a map, along with a list of things to do if "What If" happened. Often, the leader would leave small cards with arrows showing the direction to take at junctions, to be collected by the sweep.

Hi Susan,

We usually hike on well marked trails. Putting markers on trees would be considered bad form. She was not lost off trail...really. She took a wrong turn down a loging road and got totally turned around.

Cameron

"Ask the person who got lost if she'd have been willing to pay $126 to know exactly where she was AND how to get to the parking lot on her own. "

I think what I meant is that it might be overkill, say, for a leisurely afternoon stroll down a marked trail in a wooded park. (I don't know if this was the case, but that's the impression I got).

If Cameron anticipates having trouble getting them to pay attention to some basic training, its going to be tough to teach them to use the GPS, map and compass well enough to get them out of trouble on their own. One step at a time.

I'd be willing to bet that the response to an attempt at survival training is "But I have my cellphone!" It won't help much to change the excuse to "But I have my GPS!"

On a another forum I frequent a member routinely does S&R in te AZ desert. The thing he recommends for a quick rescue is a cell phone and a GPS -- call 911 and give them your coordinates (UTM or Lat-Long). The helpless don't need to know how to do anything but turn it on and page over to the Lat-Long display.

Um, but what if they are out of cell range?

-john

Then they will continue to be helpless. I'm an advocate of staying found, but apparently a lot of people get lost within a very short distance of civilization -- just over a hill they don't have the strength to climb.

Correction: Cammenga.
http://www.cammenga.com/cammenga-downloads.php
This is the current manual.

This reminds me of a story on the radio some years back about how the Park Service was considering charging people for the cost of rescuing them. I remember this was in the Pacific Northwest, don't remember if it was Washington or Oregon. They interviewed a park ranger who related a story about a guy that went hiking above the tree line, by himself, and a storm moved in and the temperature dropped. They had to go up there in the storm and haul his butt down off the mountain. He sort of re-enacted his conversation with the hiker and it was pretty funny (though I'm sure he didn't intend it to be).

ranger: So, did you have a map and compass?
hiker: No.
ranger: Did you pack some warm clothing?
hiker: No.
ranger: Did you have any means of starting a fire?
hiker: No.
ranger: Did you bring anything with you to help you in case you got lost or the weather changed?
hiker: Well... I brought my cellphone.
ranger: Arrrrgggggg...

Yah, I just am always suprised that people don't seem to realize that cell phones stop working where civilization stops.

While I don't think there is anything wrong with taking the cell, I certainly feel anything that suggests that you should rely on it as a survival tool is misguided.

-john

and I'm continually surprised by how often I find cell coverage in the middle of nowhere. Note that the lost soul who was the subject of this thread was able to use her cell phone. It's a tool, whether it works or not is another issue. I'd prefer to use my GPS compass and map to just walk out.

Like KenK I preload key locations into my GPS before a hike and then I add waypoints on the route: car location, key points on the trail, et al -- waypoints are cheap.

Like I said, I'm not saying you shouldn't give it a shot, I just wouldn't depend on it.

Sound obvious, but I alway set a waypoint at the car before leaving. ;-)

-john

This is the position I usually take when on a goup event. But I like the idea of having them leave a marker when they leave the trail. Typically we are all in sight of each other and when one needs to stop we all stop. Glad it turned out okay.

Note: A cellphone's effective range for a text message is greater than for voice calls. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

> Note: A cellphone's effective range for a text message is greater than for voice calls.

Very good point. In this case the cell phone failed at first but worked after about an hour. She may have been wandering in and out of signal. A text message might have worked the first time she wandered back into signal.

I wonder if she tried to use the phone herself? She apparently knew she was lost before the group realised, so if she'd sent a message just to say, "Hey, wait up - I'm not with you" it could have helped. She didn't have to admit she was lost at that point. (I suspect embarassment can contribute to these problems - it is possible to die of embarassment.)

Did she have a whistle? It sounds like she was only a few minutes behind the group at the point she took the wrong turning. That would have been a good moment to sound it.

Oh, I dunno. I sometimes encourage experienced hikers to wander off. After all, someone has to to get the trail started. I think her biggest mistake was in not paying attention to details when she took the wrong turn, and then getting scared and apparently giving up sensibilities. You miss much of the experience of the adventure that way. She sounded to be well prepared enough, and she had a trail to follow, so as long as she kept her head, she ought to expect to have been found at least, and to have recovered on her own most likely.

But I suppose this is good experience for the whole group. It is a big world out there, and lots to learn of to remain functional. I am glad to hear all worked out for the best. I've spent a good deal of my life hiking around in the Cascades and the Olympics. It's still a great place to go exploring, even though the world there has shrunk a lot over the years.

As for making fire in that neck of the woods, I learned at a young age that the pitch gathered from Douglas Fir trees where the bark had been busted was about as nice a firestarter as you could ask for. Cured to anything from caulk soft to a near crystal, it ignites pretty easy, burns when wet, and is easy to control. One other thing, as easy as it can be to get a good fire going in the mountains there, it ain't so easy sometimes to keep it under control, and more than once we had to hustle to keep our little campfires from becoming an incident. We got pretty lucky about that though.

As for dealing with the wet, wool was always my friend. I don't care much for waterproof clothes as I start to feel like a clam in them after too long. Still, it is better to keep the rain out than to get soaked.