Since we've had a slew of water threads today, I thought I'd continue.

What would be the shelf life be of water no longer in a factory sealed container? For instance, if you took a Nalgene or even a Poland Springs bottle, filled it with tap water or store bought water (or mostly filled it, if expansion from freezing was a concern), and put it in your preps, either in a house or a vehicle? How long could you expect the water to stay "good" under normal or even widely varying climates?

Store bought water has expiration life of about 2 years that the manufacturer guarantees safe levels of bacteria.
I have read many government recommendations that if you store non-bought water in your house, you have to replace it every six month.

Doesn't that life decrease if the water is un-capped or re-packaged though?

Of course, the water has to be sealed, so bacteria doesn't get in.

That was my original question, what the shelf life is of non-factory sealed containers.

It varies greatly with the quality of the water placed in it.. For the most part, most folks hint at 6 months with a shot of bleach.. In regards to the 2 years manufacturing, I think it was just a fed requirement.. It does not make the water unsafe to drink.. At least that is my belief.

I also think the experation date is more of a legal requirement than an indicator of shelf life. Assuming you start out with purified, bacteria free water, stored under normal condition (no sunlight, no extreme temperature cycles), I think the shelf life would be a lot longer than what is written on the bottle. I would almost say it's indefinite, or at least as long as shelf life of the container. It may taste funny or flat, but it will still be safe to drink. I've had bottles in my car for over 2 years, going through many heating/cooling cycles, with no problems.

Water that's been purified and refilled at home is a different story though. I don't think it's possible to get the water or container as sterile as from the factory, there's always a chance for a little bit of contamination. In an emergency, I'd probably still drink it, but I doubt it would last as long as factory sealed water. It might be still be safe to drink, but I know it will start to smell and taste funny a lot sooner.

With all the options for store bought water, why would you want to refill a container for long term storage?

I once got a bunch of canned water, provided by a nationallly known beer manufacurer, at a federal emergency. Six pack of white painted "beer" cans, full of drinking water. I stuck some in a nice cool spot and kinda forgot about them. Within a year or so they had all exploded...

As far as I understand, if one takes an empty clean container and fills it up with tap water, the shelf-life is somewhere in the vicinity of 6 month.
This will most likely vary depending on storing conditions/environment. I.e., if its hot - water will go bad faster, if cold - slower.
One way to remedy this situation is to use Water Preserver . It can keep water bacteriologically safe for a very long time without the need for change. Actually only rated for 5 years, but it was tested for as long as 8 years or longer.

1 gallon Crystal Geiser water jugs are $.78 and that is good spring water to drink around the house.

Buy 10 to 20 and rotate through your supply EVERY month.

This of course doesn't work if your storing 50gallon drums but the chat seems to be about "bottled".

Hello,

I recently read an article in a local newspaper stating that even factory filled plastic bottles are not very safe. The closer you get to the "best before" date, the more "poison" is in the bottle. So keeping the water until the "best before" date migt not be the best idea.

Using and rotating the water as stated by someone else in this thread might be a better idea. Or not using plastic containers (or another type of plastic?).

I found an article about the subject on the net.

The poison lurking in your plastic water bottle
By JO KNOWSLEY, Daily Mail

Last updated at 08:34am on 13th March 2006

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/ar...in_page_id=1798

One can use Water Preserver for any size container, just add less drops.

Now that is bad news <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I guess time to invest in a countertop filter. I have been buying all of the water we use in plastic containers.
I wonder if this antimony business is only applicable to clear plastic bottles, since most of the 2.5 gallon jugs come in white opaque containers?

the study only shows how much toxins are in the water and what that toxic can do.

(from the url you posted: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/ar...in_page_id=1798 )

I have yet to feel ill, depressed nor did i ever had violent vomitting from drinking water from plastic bottles of various age. Nor do i know anybody that has a similair problem.

It might or might not cause something when your exposed to this toxin for long periodes. But it shouldn't be dangerous for waterstorage for emergency, either refilled or bought. I can assure you that not drinking water is much more more dangerous, than drinking form plastic waterbottles.

If you are still afraid for these toxics, studies shows thats plastics like HDPE and LDPE will not leach toxins.

I recently purchased a reverse osmosis filter for my kitchen sink, since I realized that it's a lot cheaper in the long run than the Pur faucet mount filter I currently have, and filters it a lot more thorougly.
I wonder how the shelf life of highly filtered, reverse osmosis water compares to tap or bottled water? Since virtually all of the organic matter and minerals are removed(except for carbon, which is added back with a post filter), I'd imagine that there's nothing for the bacteria to feed on and use to reproduce, and therefore I don't know how they could reach a dangerous level. I know that most bottled water is also filtered using reverse osmosis, but I think if you sterilize your container, conditions would actually be more sanitary than at the factory.

I have had tests performed on emergency drinking water for US Navy life rafts. These are 0.5 liter HDPE-2 bottles. Tests have been performed on samples from five to eight years of age. The type of tests were for Volatile Organics and Base/Neutral/Acids using GC Mass spectrometer tests and also Total Plate Count tests. We tested samples from a Swedish manufacturer and a US mfr. that had sold emergency bottled water to the USN for life raft use.

US Navy life rafts are serviced every five years and we wanted to ensure the safety of the drinking water throughout the service period.

The GCMS tests showed that there were no dangerous levels of any harmful leachates from the HDPE used in the containers. Some bottles from the Swedish mfr. did have high plate counts (5500 and 4300 on two samples) however none of the pathogens were fecal coliform which pose the most hazard to drinking water. The high plate counts were attributable to poor sealing of the containers and not the water quality when bottled.

Both bottled water manufacturers used water run through a reverse osmosis system that had been sterilized in the bottle after sealing by autoclaving (heating) the water to just below boiling point. This method kills any stray germs that may have entered during the bottling process. I understand that some companies fill their bottles with water at just below boiling point and then immediately seal them. This sterilizes the water and the bottle. When the water cools, a slight vacuum is formed causing the bottle to suck in somewhat. A loss of vacuum would indicate that the seal has been compromised.

If you wanted to bottle your own water for long term storage, I would recommend using HDPE/Nalgene bottles and boiling the water prior to filling. The loss of vacuum would be indicate whether sterility may be compromised.

Regards,

Tom

Quite excellent information for post #2! Thanks.

I take all reports of death be all for those that use plastics, eat beef, eat chicken, etc etc with a grain of salt.. I think I posted here a while back that all, and I mean all research needs to be funded.. These scientists are PAID by big corporations, or they have their own agenda. I heard a doctor recently proclaiming that eating chicken will cause cancer more than eating beef. Something about blah blah blah, cooking to a certain temperature releases blah blah blah which will cause cancer.. Turns out this doctor was also a member of PETA...Whatever...

In regards to the plastics leaking poisons, I believe that was when a high heat was applied to the plastic.. when I say high, I mean boiling point high (212*F or 100*C)

Reverse Osmosis.. I have one and it's great.. I actually have a TDS (Total Disolved Solids) Meter gadget thing.. Water coming out of the faucet is around 300 ppm.. Costco brand water is around 36 ppm.. My RO is around 10 ppm.. Distilled water, as expected is 0 ppm. So an RO is defintely effective and better than most bottled "drinking" water... I store alot of costco water, because 36 ppm is not bad.. I also buy alot of distilled water (usually have 15 gallons at home). The only question I have is what are those 10 parts in my RO water? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh, I actually use my TDS Meter to tell me when to replace the filter.. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh, I forgot to mention.. That does not mean your RO is 10 ppm.. It really depends on how your water coming in is.. I notice that when the ppm increases in my tap water, my RO water also increases.. So if we look at proportionate numbers, if your tap is lets say 600 ppm, its possible your RO will be 20 ppm or higher.. etc

I actually test my water monthly.. fill 3 glasses, 1 RO, 1 Distilled, and 1 Tap.. Clear the instrument by measuring the distilled (0).. Measure the RO, clear again in the distilled (0), measure in Tap, then clean in distilled. I then take 1-(RO ppm / TAP ppm) and get a percentage of effectiveness.. I get around 96-97% most of the time

I maintain adequate water stores at my house in three ways. First, I usually keep about 30 gallons of water in a combination of 24 oz, 1 gal and 2.5 gal drinking water containers. We rotate through this on a bi-monthly basis, added to this we have a significant amount of Gatorade Endurance on hand as well. Second, I have 10, 5-7 gallon water container that contain RO filtered water and water stabilizer (similar to what Red Flare is selling). These are cycled about every year as they are the water containers I bring to events and camping with me. Finally, I did what Doug suggested... Upgraded to a 80gal water heater and added a second one… so I have 160 gallons of clean water in my garage that is cycled daily!

Nice info, Tom, although it just goes to show the wisdom of "not putting all your eggs in one basket." Even these carefully manufactured water supplies ended up contaminated from a failure along the way. Regardless of whether it's a compromised seal, tiny crack, burst container from freezing or whatever, it's good to have more than one water container in case Murphy comes knocking.

Theoretically, clean water in a clean, inert container should stay that way indefinitely. But that's in a perfect world, as this lifeboat supply example shows. If someone wants/needs self-stored water to keep for a long, long time without changing it out, then maybe they just need to accept the inconvenience of assuming that it needs purifying in the event that they ever need to drink it.

I have always liked this idea. A glass-lined water heater is probably as inert as you'll get and you can store a lot of water and keep it fresh. However, one concern I have with such an arrangement (and I meant to comment on the other water thread in LTP where such an inline storage option was mentioned) is isolating the water in case something happens to the quality of the incoming water supply. Could be a widespread failure like the Milwaukee crypto incident, or just a localized one like a sinkhole down the street causing sewage to contaminate the water main leading to your house. By the time anyone is aware of the problem, your tanks might already be contaminated with bacteria or chemicals that shouldn't be in there.

We also equipped the life rafts with a reverse osmosis desalinator (mil version of Survivor 35) for producing freshwater from saltwater. Our testing has shown that these units will filter out microorganisms down to a 4 micron size which will remove giardia and cryptosporidium parvum but not E. Coli or Salmonella (0.2 to 4 microns). We're considering adding an additional filter (0.45 micron) to remove those germs. A disinfectant would be required to remove any viral contamination. As these RO units are designed specifically for desalinization, I don't know how well RO units for purifying freshwater would perform.

Regards,

Tom

That's an interesting article, thanks for posting. However, it seems like scientist are coming up with a new danger everyday, almost to a point where we shouldn't be eating or drinking anything. I think if you look hard enough, you'll find danger in almost anything.

I'm not saying they aren't correct in their findings, but like the article stated, even at a "staggering 700ppt" (<--very dramatic wording), that's still way below offical guidelines. So it's not quite the hidden killer that we should be worried about. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a "poison". I suppose if we were consistently drinking 3 year old bottled water every day, than it might be some cause for concern. But if we're talking emergency water storage, I dont' think it would be very high on my danger list. I'd rather take my chances with trace amounts of antimony than dehydration.

One thing they dont' mention is, how many of these toxins are already in the water we drink? How do we know the water from the tap doesn't contain an even higher concentration of more harmful toxins? And does the water stop absorbing the toxin after a certain amount of time?

Here we go again. *anything* can be toxic if you have enough of it.

From the EPA: http://www.epa.gov/ttnatw01/hlthef/antimony.html
"...the average concentration of antimony in meats, vegetables, and seafood is 0.2 to 1.1 parts per billion (ppb)."

And the "staggering 700ppt" in your bottled water would be 0.7 ppb, in other words, about the same as in your food. Relax.

On the other hand, virtually all bottled water DOES contain potentially deadly amounts of DHMO. Among other nasty aspects, DHMO contains hydrogen, the chemical widely thought to be the cause of the Hindenburg disaster.

I had forgotten to warn people about DHMO. Good thing you brought it up, that could have been a serious oversight. The safest way to prevent ingesting DHMO is to boil your water for at least 30 minutes per pint of water to make sure all the DHMO evaporates before drinking. Then you'll be left with DHMO-free water. <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

DHMO... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

DHMO is much possible hazard: http://www.dhmo.org/ !!! <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


...for those who doesn't get it. Read the words Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) carefully and remeber those science classes...

Took me a while to get this one, but I did! <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Yes, the deadly hydrogen gas (LOL) <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, 700 ppt (parts per thousand) is equal to .0007 ppb (parts per billion) or .7 ppm (parts per million).

Regards,
Bill

The article refers to "ppt" as parts per *trillion*.

Ah... DHMO, the source of and Solution to all of life's problems (to borrow Homer's Beer phrase). <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sadly, people simply aren't aware of the dangers that DHMO brings... did you know it is an almost universal solvent and used as a kitchen and bathroom cleaning agent? And sometimes it's even used to clean cars (though rarely my own.. I like the crusty look)

Thanks to all who replied to my post:

1. First of all it's nice to hear some one else's 2 cents on the subject.
2. Yes, I know that all those kinds of messages are to be taken with a grain of salt (or some even a bag of salt :-)). It is not even safe to breathe anymore...
3. the word "poison" might have been unapropriate. Since english is not my "native" language I had trouble finding a better word (no dictionary at hand) and figured that you guys would get the point (more or less).
4. What I wanted to communicate: maybe you're better off (safer) using and rotating the water into your daily use than storing a quantity of water only for long-term-emergency-use and stretching the "usefull life" tot the limit of it before replacing it with a new supply. I have no experience in the long term storage of water. I just stock up a nice (larger) quantity of bottled (glass & plastic bottles) water for daily use with a "first in - first out" order of use.
If you really want to stock up large quantities of tap water, isn't it possible to rotate it (depending on the number of containers and quantity) e.g. having 6 batches of water of which one batch is used & replaced every month. This way you total stock is renewed every six months. If you'r stocking up more than needed for cooking and drinking, the replaced water could maybe be used for washing/flushing the toilet:...?
5. DHMO => I had never heard about it. Looks nasty.

tranx
It's a joke. DHMO = 2H, 1O = water

OOOOOOOO man ! :-}}} You've got me ...

I should have been paying more attention.
I am truely ashamed.

I must even admit having read some previous thread about
some congressman (? or how do they call them) wanting to ban H2O. My first tought was: how can you possibly do such a thing without properly informing yourself.

I already tought the name "DHMO" to be a strange one. A bell was ringing very faintly when reading:



and this should definitely have woken me up.
But while quickly reading the posts, I didn't watch wich post replied to wich.



Guess the ETS "STOP" priciple is usefull allways and everywhere even for posting on a forum: Stop - Think - Observe - "Post"

Too funny about the hydrogen and DMHO; there's even oxygen present to feed the hydrogen fire <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

FYI on the Hindenburg - There was a special on PBS where a NASA scientist theorized that the Hindenburg burst into flames initially because of the flamable materials used to seal the convas exterior skin. It appears that the Zeppelin engineers used a mixture of Iron Oxide and powdered Aluminum as a sealant (and reflective coating). The proportions in the doping mixture were similar to the solid rocket boosters used on the shuttle. The hydrogen burning was secondary as opposed to the primary cause.

Pay attention!!! (just kidding)

Maybe I shouldn't have just given it away, but I'm always greatly impressed by the fluency in English that so many outside of former British colonies have and feel badly when little details (like the prefixes di- and mono-) might possibly have gotten lost in translation.

Don't feel embarassed at all. I know a lot of people who wouldn't have gotten the joke, and they do know english well, so that can't be their excuse. I like the dhmo.com website, it's done in a very realistic manner, almost like an official governemnt warning site. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, you brought up a good issue. I never really thought that the bottles could be contaiminating the water. I don't think it'll stop me from drinking, but it's always nice to know. But I wonder if rotating the drinking water isn't worse than just letting it sit there. By rotating it, you are basically getting a consistent long term exposure in small doses, rather than just using it during an emergency where you would just have a higher short term exposure. I really doubt it makes any difference, but it's just something I'm curious about, which is why I wonder if the absorbtion stabilizes after a certain amount of time. Either way, I really wouldn't worry about it all, I still feel safe drinking bottle water.

I do think it's important to note that it doesn't really matter what the source, you will never have perfectly pure water. Everything we drink or eat has trace amounts of some type of contamination in it. If you think about it, a lot of people add poison to their water. And they're doing it voluntarily <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Chlorine is a known poison, and it CAN kill you. But it all depends on the concentrations in the water.

No matter what, having even "expired" or contaminated water is better than having none at all.

Not to get off topic, but isn't powdered aluminum and iron oxide just thermite? Not the best thing to cover a hydrogen balloon in. That thing was a floating bomb waiting to explode.

Here is some info from Wikipedia on antimony in PETE plastics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_terephthalate):

'Antimony trioxide (Sb2O3) is a catalyst that is often used in the production of PET. It remains in the material and can migrate out into food and drinks. The Swiss Federal Office of Public Health compared the amount of antimony in waters bottled in PET and glass: the antimony concentrations of the water in PET bottles was somewhat higher, but still well below the allowed maximal concentrations.[2] (report available in German and French only) The Swiss Federal Office of Public Health concluded that the health risk of these low concentrations is negligible (1% of the "tolerable daily intake" determined by the WHO) ? although antimony is very toxic at much higher concentrations . A later (2006) study by a group of geochemists headed by Dr. William Shotyk [3] finds similar concentrations of antimony in water bottled in PET and, comparing it with concentrations in groundwater and in natural water bottled both in polypropylene and glass, concludes that Sb is leaching from PET. While ground water contains approximately 2 parts per trillion (ppt) of antimony, freshly bottled water averages 160 ppt. Samples left up to six months had levels as high as 630 ppt.'

And from WHO 'Guidelines for Drinking Water Safety'
(http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/chemicals/antimonysum.pdf):

'Daily oral uptake of antimony appears to be significantly higher than exposure by inhalation, although total exposure from environmental sources, food and drinking-water is very low compared with occupational exposure.

'... Conventional treatment processes do not remove antimony. However, antimony is not normally a raw water contaminant. As the most common source of antimony in drinking-water appears to be dissolution from metal plumbing and fittings, control of antimony from such sources would be by product control.

'... Toxicological review -- There has been a significant increase in the toxicity data available since the previous review, although much of it pertains to the intraperitoneal route of exposure. The form of antimony in drinking-water is a key determinant of the toxicity, and it would appear that antimony leached from antimony-containing materials would be in the form of the antimony(V) oxo-anion, which is the less toxic form. The subchronic toxicity of antimony trioxide is lower than that of potassium antimony tartrate, which is the most soluble form. Antimony trioxide, due to its low bioavailability, is genotoxic only in some in vitro tests, but not in vivo, whereas soluble antimony(III) salts exert genotoxic effects in vitro and in vivo. Animal experiments from which the carcinogenic potential of soluble or insoluble antimony compounds may be quantified are not available. IARC has concluded that antimony trioxide is possibly carcinogenic to humans (Group 2B) on the basis of an inhalation study in rats, but that antimony trisulfide was not classifiable as to its carcinogenicity to humans (Group 3). However, chronic oral uptake of potassium antimony tartrate may not be associated with an additional carcinogenic risk, since antimony after inhalation exposure was carcinogenic only in the lung but not in other organs and is known to cause direct lung damage following chronic inhalation as a consequence of overload with insoluble particulates. Although there is some evidence for the carcinogenicity of certain antimony compounds by inhalation, there are no data to indicate carcinogenicity by the oral route.'

Of course, carcinogenity is hardly the only concern with drinking water. For instance, I've never heard of cyanide as a carcingen, but it kills you anyway. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sue

I'd like to ramp up Romania's idea one further. Do these hot water tanks heat and use gas/oil ?

This idea sounds like a possible circulating cistern set up. Anyone see or know of something like this ? 300 gal ??? 4 tanks etc etc ???