In light of current events I want DD to know how to defend herself to the best of her abilities. Any suggestions on a style of martial arts that a 3-yr old could use to make life difficult for a bad guy?

-Blast

Excellent idea! Why not check around to some of your local martial arts places and talk to them? If they've already got classes for toddlers, go in and watch one of the classes. Young kids have the attention span of a gnat, so great patience and short classes would be required. If they're leaning on the little kids like drill sergeants, and treating them like high school kids, opt out. And if they don't have classes for young kids, it would probably be best that they don't make all their mistakes on yours.

Sue

Not a suggestion, but I would like to know as well.. With all this crap happening in the US the last 2 weeks, I want my girl to be able to get out of situations that call for it.. I just find it tragic that 2 wackos decide to segregate the girls from the boys in their sick attacks.

I've studied various disciplines, and I feel that Krav Maga is excellent for learning the real world basics. Unfortunately, instructors in Krav Maga are few and far between in this country.

Other than that, I agree with what was already said and find a family friendly school that will make her feel more at ease.

In addition to personal protection, good martial arts instruction will also add structure, focus and self esteem that will benefit the child in all areas, and make your job as a parent easier as well.

Along with the skills to make an escape I want her to learn WHEN to use such steps yet not develop an overly-large fear of people. DD is at a tricky age, definately "monkey-see-monkey-do" and prone to fear. After watching "Jericho" with me she is constantly on guard for mushroom clouds (and for some unknown reason dinosaurs...). She also decided she needed to perform an emergency tracheometry on DW (same episode as the mushroom cloud).

I guess what I'm trying to say is how do I teach her to defend against bad guys without making her afraid of everyone?

-Blast

Susan has hit it bang on :

Classes adapted to young kids is a must. Other than that, everyone will preach for his favorite martial art. I do Aikido and it takes years to master, I like it's non aggressive philosophy. I wish I had started 30 years ago ... Starting young is a tremendous advantage ...

My kids have been taking Taikwando since 3rd or 4th grade (several years now) and I agree 100% with what Susan said. Its not so much the type of marshal art, but the sensibility of the instructor when dealing with young children. As a parent you'll know what is right for your child.

We lucked upon a great insructor that taught classes at several day care centers adn then decided to teach at our (his too) elementary school. The progress is slow, but steady, which is all I expect.

No 3-6 year old is going to be able to take on an intent adult, especially one with lethal weapons, but it is a great way to get them excercise, teach them self and situational awareness, self confidence, and eventually protect themselves.

Speaking as a Dad of three young girls, when you figure that one out let me know. I started trying to come up with that answer the night I first became a Dad. (My oldest will be 8 in 2 months, still no answer.) Someone suggested the "what if" game a few weeks ago and my oldest loves to play that game now. Seems like a good place to start.

Blast, while I think this is a very reasonable and thoughtful idea, I'm going to have to say it's very likely a mistake. I'll lay out why below:

Having both taught and observed kids in martial arts, I can say this with a little authority. Most kids aren't even ready at age 6 to begin any serious Martial Arts training. Their attention spans are next to zero, they don't have the physical power or control to handle most maneuvers, and they don't have the mental ability to determine when it's right to cause physical harm to others. Plus if they were to seriously harm someone (alghthough this is unlikely) they may not have the emotional capacity to handle it well.

In my experience, at 3 (my own boy is 3) even if both smart and capable, I wouldn't even think of teaching punching, kicking, or biting, etc. Now, that's not to say that all kids couldn't handle it, but I've seen an awful lot of kids come through the doors of our dojo and we have a policy that they can't start until 6 Yrs. old now. At 3-5, they typically get very little out of it and they can be incredibly hard to train because most Martial arts styles teach people when it's appropriate to use the skills and at that age, they just don't have the situational awareness and decision making processes down yet.

In light of recent tragic events, I think it's prudent to teach kids to run away, to scream for help, and maybe even some very rudimentary self defense such as biting to release someone's grip. But to think that a 3 year old could fend off a gun wielding adult is simply way out of realm of reality. I'm fairly big, strong, fast and capable, and even I would have a hard time against an armed interloper.

Suffice it to say, if you can find a school that caters to kids and does it right (plenty of discipline, yet fun and enthusiastic) like my own school, then you will have to ask the Instructor if they allow 3 year olds. I'm betting more often than not that they won't - the youngest I've heard of is 5 and they have to be emotionally stable (read: not bullies) and "grown up" for their age.

I study Isshinryu Karate and Texas has a decent representation of that style I believe. I find it to be a no-frills street fighting technique that is very very heavy on reality and not full of flash. We don't typically do well at "flash and dash" type tournaments, but at traditional ones, we excel. I find it refreshing to have instruction in an art where progress is mapped to actual ability and not to money. We fail people for moving up in rank all of the time - it's definitely earned. I'd recommend similar schooling for kids. Giving them a higher rank simply because they show up to class and pay their bills is just wrongheaded... avoid these sorts of Martial Arts "mills". If you do enroll your daughter, I recommend that either one or both parents also attend. You'll be able to reinforce their training outside of class, and it's a good bonding experience (not to mention useful for all family members!)

Anyway, my point is that although your DD may be able to learn some things that would be helpful, she may not be able to institute that learning at the proper time due to fear or not understanding the sitaution. Even then, with her size and abilities, it's unlikely she could elude a captor. Trust me when I say I've thought about it fully. I could teach my own child and have opted not to do so, but my advice may be worth what it costs you. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> YMMV

Edit:
After reading the other replies that were written while I was distracted and typing this up - I will definitely agree that MA will teach discipline, a strong sense of self and duty, and it's excellent physical exercise that teaches control, strength, speed, flexibility, and a very useful skillset. Just don't have the wrong expectation of what your 3 yr. old can do if you choose to enroll her (even if it's at a great school with fantastic instruction).

You hit my other fear directly on the head. I doubt DD is old enough to truely understand when it'd be okay to hurt someone. I don't want to get a phone call from DW saying DD punched another kid in the throat for taking a toy...

The latest school shooting really has me riled up. We went through so much to get DD and the thought of someone trying to ever harm her makes me a little nuts. I'd go bare-handed against a grizzly for her.

The biting/kicking might be the way to go for now. One of the games we play when out walking is "Bad Dog". We'll be going along when suddenly I'll say "bad dog". DD immedieately curls up in a ball on her knees with her hands protecting the back of her neck. Then a bit later she says "bad dog" to me and I have do the same curl. It gets odd looks from the neighbors but thats okay by me. Maybe I can come up with a similar thing for "Bad People" in a way that doens't freak her out.

Am I blowing everything out of proportion/being too paranoid?

Ok, this is my first post. I am a long time lurker and learner, but you have hit on a subject that I have expertise in. I am an educator by trade, kids are my business.

I agree with Massacre completely, though for a different reasons. At 3 years old, kids don't have the motor skills to properly perform karate forms. While it is cute to see, their effectiveness is very limited. Teachr her how to do summersualts, push ups, stand on one leg, balance on logs, jump rope, skip, hopscotch. Playing catch with a ball will help her with her hand/eye coordination. All of these things will help her large motor skills and help her when she is ready for Karate.

Five or six is a great time to start them. Six is nice because it gets them past the major changes of Kindergarten.

Both my daughters and wife study Isshyn Rue Karate. As Massacre stated, it is a no frills, but very competent form of the art. My oldest daughter is nine and this is her fourth year, she is now a junior black belt. She could hurt the average adult male. She won't recieve her full black belt until she turns 16, by that time, I won't have any fears in regards to her personal safety!!

Tom

The amount of harm that a 3 year old can do isn't much, but what they can do could be really nasty (biting or poking eyes).

If you do decide to teach some basic self defense, I would do exactly what you say Blast and prepare her for "bad people". But curling up in a ball wouldn't be what I would choose. I would say, scream (or blow whistle), run away, and call out for help. If someone ever did get their hands on her, teach her that biting is okay under some circumstances and that if she can, headbutting the nose or clawing at the eyes is an effective distraction to allow her to run away. There are a few other worthwhile low-force, easy to execute, yet very damaging techniques as well.

The very same things have been on my mind, and I don't think it's being paranoid in the least. People kidnap kids, shoot them, rape them, even cut them out of the womb. It's a sick world full of deviants, but you also don't want your kid growing up afraid of their shadow.

I think for the most part Parents keep pretty close tabs on 3 year olds, but when they are in school or daycare, that's another matter. I would certainly ask your child's caretakers if they have plans for things like this and if they teach kids basic principles (it's unlikely they do at that age).

Anyway, take it slow, and before you teach any techniques or have anyone teach them to her, make sure she's VERY clear on when she can use them. For instance, it's never right to do it when she's just angry. But don't tell her it's not right to bite other kids... There are documented kidnappings and killings by young children and teens

Ah... it's just a sick world. I think it's prudent to be prepared in this manner... just don't treat her like an adult and make sure you go slowly.

The "curl up in a ball/protect the neck" is just for dogs. Currently for people their are two rules:
1. If we are with her DD can be polite to strangers but not overly friendly. If we vouch for the stranger then she can trust them fully.
2. If someone does something inappropriate say "No", get away, then tell someone (parent/teacher...)

We keep close tabs on her, but you never know... The world just seems really nuts right now. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

-Blast

JohnnyRocket,

Thanks for de-lurking and bringing your experience to this conversation. I was pretty sure I was being overly optimistic(!) about finding a martial arts for a 3 yr old. You and the rest have confirmed this but have also given me very good advise. For now we will stick to exercise and yoga (she loves both) along with subtle teaching.

-Blast

Aloha Blast,

Good thinking on your part. I don't know if I would decide on something based on age. I feel that more depends on your child, the teacher, and your involvement.

I was watching these young kids in China on the Discovery channel and some of those kids who look like they are 4-5 years old can probably kick my butt. Well ok, not really. But if they keep it up, maybe in a year they could.

How involved do you plan on being? My theory is to find a school or teacher that will allow the adults and the children to have classes at the same time, even if they are segregated. That way you do it together versus you go to one class and your child goes to another. You would be surprised how much more and better they learn if they see you doing it too. Especially if they see you doing it wrong and making corrections.

Some people can teach kids and some can't. So you gotta do your homework.

When my daughter was two, a strange guy on the elevator tried to touch her (on her head). After that, my wife asked me to start teaching my daughter some martial arts, like blocking and hitting. I thought about it long and hard and started to make up games to play with my daughter that taught her avoidance, maintaining spacing without looking or turning away, how to get attention, etc. And we played them. Then we talked about strangers, to say NO, to get away, to always let mommy and daddy know what is going on, etc. A great book, by the way, is "The Berenstain Bears Learn About Strangers."

I think a good set of martial arts for kids, especially girls is a combination of Aikido and Wing Chun. Aikido to teach how to fall and how to use someone else's energy. Wing Chun also teaches how to use someone else's energy and also correct body mechanics, teaches how to get inside (where most people are uncomfortable and girls will more likely find themselves in a defense situation), and how to hit fast, hard and in combinations. By the way, Wing Chun was invented by a nun.

For a girl especially, I think these things are good to learn. That is what I am having my girls learn. And I have to and want to do it with them. I am fortunate to have found a good instructor for not only me, but for my girls. I am doing private lessons three times a week and my older daughter will be starting private lessons together with my twice a week.

Good luck!! Gotta get that martial arts training in before the boys start to come around for real.

"If we vouch for the stranger then she can trust them fully."

NO! NO! NO!

Child molesters look like everyone else. You know some, but you just don't know it. Strangers who grab children make the headlines, but they are a very small minority.

Most child victims KNOW their molester. He is someone who deliberately puts himself in situations where there are children. He is a Scout leader, a Big Brother, a teacher, a neighbor, a church member or a relative. He creates an aura of trust with both the child and the child's parents. In fact, the illusion he creates often makes the parent call their child a liar when he/she tells of an incident.

Don't get too complacent about the people you know. There are websites that give the name, photo, description and the street where molesters live in your town. Unfortunately, only the convicted ones are listed. There are thousands of them who have never been caught & labeled.

Parents who direct every facet of their kid's life and thinking are just training them to obey a molester. Your child needs to know that they can draw a line with anyone they know, and you will back them up. ANYONE. And that means if they don't want to kiss Aunt Martha or Uncle Ed, they don't have to, even if the reason is just because they don't like their cologne.

Here is one site that will give you some ideas: http://childrentoday.com/resources/articles/sexabuse.htm
You can find others by searching on 'prevent molestation' or 'prevent sex abuse'.

Always keep the channels of communication open. Let your child know that you will always listen to them, and then DO IT. Get away from knee-jerk reactions. And don't just wait for a child to tell you, watch his/her reactions to people. If your daughter seems to love everybody but doesn't like to be within reach of Uncle Charlie, there could be a reason.

Don't be one of those stupid parents who thinks they know everything. There are more than enough of them as it is.

Sue

Couldn't agree with Susan more on this, Blast.

Ah, I should have stated "trust them fully IN OUR PRESENCE." In other words, she doesn't have to hide behind our legs from them, she is allowed to talk to them, sit on their laps, accept candy etc... WHILE WE ARE THERE. To clarify more, I'm talking about these people are strangers to DD but not to us (friends, co-workers and the such), not random people off the street. I agree that even these people may harbor secret depths of evil, but I'm not going to keep DD locked in her room for her own safety. It's a balancing act.

In light of your and Susan's statement I have to ask. Do you not use babysitters or allow your children to attend school? If you don't trust anyone how do your children learn to deal with others? Or was it just my use of the word "fully" that triggered your responses?

-Blast

For me, it was probably the fully part. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would tend to agree with your stance on people who are strangers to your child, but not strangers to yourself. You can't keep your child locked away for life. It's just not practical.

We've rarely, if ever used babysitters (probably why we are strung out after 3 years!) other than my mother and one young woman we've known since she was born. And My DS goes to preschool, but he's always supervised by more than one adult there, so I'm not as concerned, especially when we can pop in at any time and there are usually other parents observing at any given time.

One thing I am concerned about is someone simply snatching him, or him getting away. But I, like you, try to use teaching moments and he seems to understand that he has to do what his teachers say. Glad you clarified this one...

Oh, and I know it's not right, but I immediately distrust anyone, especially men, who have put themselves in a position of trust with children. Wrong or not, I think it's the only prudent choice, and I think active involvement with your child's activities is the only way to mitigate the risk.

I think the biggest problem with this is most martial arts do NOT teach a person how do street fight. They teach an idealistic pattern of moves that do not easily translate to actual fighting. This was one of the problems Bruce Lee had with the state of martial arts in his day. The Martial arts teacher I had taught us street fighing and one of the moves he describe in a confrontation that he told us about was not very artsy.
The other problem is most kids do not have strenght nor judgement of what to do.
THe best defense would be to RUN.
cheers

It was also the 'fully' that triggered my response.

How many times have you seen parents force their kids to do something that they don't want to do, just because it prevents embarrassment to THEM? Many/most kids aren't protected by their parents as much as OWNED by them. Every command to their kid is determined by the parent -- the kid has no say.

Teach your kids to just politely say, 'No, thank you' when they are told/asked to kiss or hug or whatever someone that they aren't comfortable with. If parents were given the kind of commands they give their kids, they would go ballistic.

By the way, the most popular way kids are grabbed by strangers appears to be the 'puppy or kitty' routine. 'I've got some puppies in my car, do you want to see them?' 'I've lost my little baby kitty, can you help me find him?' 'I've got a pony down the street that you can ride if you want to.'

Check out the labeled child molesters in your area. I've got one two blocks away.

p.s. Maybe 'self defense training' would be better than 'martial arts training' when the time comes.

Sue

Texas is pretty good at listing sex/child predators on the web. You are lucky you only have one two blocks away. We've got three. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

On the downside, Houston got flooded (er...) with offenders from Hurricane Katrina that aren't currently registered. *sigh*

Giles: Yes, it's terribly simple. The good guys are always stalwart and true, the bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after.
Buffy: Liar.

-Blast

Here's my take on the issues in this thread:

Martial Arts for a 3 year old
At this age, martial arts or other sports activites for this age are about (a) parents fulfilling their own dreams through their kids and (b) fun activities for the kid. For example, mom or dad really likes a particular sport or activity and so gets junior involved. If mom or dad really wants junior to continue the activity, they best make sure that it is fun for him or her. (Sometimes mom and dad have different ideas about what sport junior should be enrolled in, but that's a different issue.)


Trusting Strangers (versus Friends), and Parental Presence
Strangers are not to be trusted. You expect them to conform to the rules of a polite society (and should be polite in return); however, you keep your distance from them (physical and in conversation), just in case they don't. When you get to know someone, he or she can become a friend (and trusted). Normally it takes time to build a friendship, but sometimes the process can be faster if a parent or other really trusted person vouches for them.

A stranger is a stranger, whether or not a parent is around.
A friend is a friend, whether or not a parent is around.

And there are some rules of behavior that apply to everyone, even friends and family. Private body parts remain private, even from friends.

Forcing Kids to Be More Familar with Someone
If a kid doesn't want to talk to, hug, accept gifts from someone that a parent wants her to, the kid should be empowered (both taught and allowed) to decline politely. And hiding or scowling is not polite.

-Kuovonne

Just teach her to bite, kick & scream. I don't think that a judo throw is going to work if the bad guy has picked her up.

It might be worth teaching her the basics of how to break someones grasp by rotating her hand against the thumb joint or attacking the little fingers. I started that game with my daughter when she was about 4 and to outsiders, that's exactly what it looked like but it began teaching her how joints workand in what direction they don't like moving. Now at 16, it's Krav Maga and any other nasty ideas we can come up with.
At the end of the day, anything is better than nothing.

Welcome to the fire BadFrog! Those are some good tips, I like the way you think...

-Blast

Yet another dead thread resurrected from the archives.

BadFrog...Welcome to the party...Jump in with both feet and have fun!! Joint work is amazing. My Sensei really is outstanding at it. We learned a bunch. I hate it because my joint are super sensitive. Training really put the hurt on them. I'd rather take a punch or kick anytime.

Blast...I didn't read the posts but...I would join the classes with your daughter/s. That way they see that it is important that DF knows how to take of himself. I know that at 6-foot plus you are not a target, but the kids need the reinforcement. I am a 6-1 225-ish guy, not necessarily a target, can take a pretty good thumpin' and still hold my own but the training was fun anyway. The Black Belt Test was an interesting event. I made it through as a 44 yr-old despite knee and shoulder surgery during training.

Final note: Self defense is combat, hence a martial art. It is just a matter of which techniques you choose to use.

Auughhhh, Zombies! Quick, somebody notify Christina!

-Blast

Since we ressurected the thread, how about an update on what you actually decided to do?

I told DD1, "Watch and learn" then snuck up behind DW, tackled her and began tickling her.

Ah, the pains a father will endure for his children...

-Blast

Very nice....

Let's see... At the pint size, scream, bite, kick, run like hell variety.

As far as Japanese martial arts goes, I would avoid anything that ends with "do" which means "the way of" and rather choose the "jutsu" variation which means "the art of".

The difference is that jutsu martial arts are more genuine and closer to their true martial (war) origins while the "do" versions are more adapted to competition thus they left out lethal techniques in favor of sports.

A good example would be Kendo versus Kenjutsu. In Kendo they use light bamboos to fight, while in Kenjutsu they practice more with a real sword and you get used to the weight of the real sword.

Same thing for Judo versus Jujutsu. For serious self defense purposes I would go with Jujutsu where you learn really dangerous tricks while in Judo they removed these tricks so that competition and olympiads are safer.

The one exeption would be Aikido because there's always a simulating aggressor so it's closer to self-defense because they use real life situations.

I would avoid Korean Taikwondo, it's really based around combat competition nowadays where the goal is to gaining points instead of pragmatically neutralize your aggressor and they really favor kicks instead of punches because it originates from a nordic environment with vast valleys and plenty of room for acrobatic kicks and they also had to deal with horse riders. Southern styles like chinese kungfu favors punches and low kicks because they would fight in more cluttered environments like on boats and quays, and would be more suitable for urban self-defense.

But 3 years old is young. I would go for generic self-defense classes aimed at young children.

What's scary is she's less than two months away from turning five now. Damn, who sped up the Universe!

-Blast

Blast,

I think they kicked in warp drive. My oldest is now 11 (almost 12) but it seems like just yesterday they were born! I won't have even figured out how to be a Dad and they will be on their own. Maybe you figure out what to do when you have grandkids?

Depends on the instructor. While many North American-trained instructors are pushing the sport rather than the martial art, there are still true practitioners out there, usually older Korean men who are first-generation immigrants.

The Grandmaster from whom I learned was a South Korean army instructor first, and he never forgot it. While the kids' classes still focused on the fun, the advanced adult classes were a whole different animal. Bruises and the occasional bloody nose and loosened tooth were teaching tools, and "light contact" could mean anything short of broken ribs.

I got knocked around (when others' control slipped), knocked people around (when mine was lacking) and learned that getting hit hard really doesn't hurt until later.

TKD does lack a close-combat function, but most Grandmasters know hapkido (borrowed aikido that is much less pretty and focuses on crippling rather than submission) and a lot of them have a bit of judo as well. I'd love to find a good judo instructor, but it's hard in a rural area.

Depends on your view - although the skillset in judo is restricted, it is honed through plenty of mat time, and reasonably safely.

Consequently, most judoka can pull off their techniques under pressure against someone who is resisting.

(I am aware that this is a big issue of contention in the martial arts - read Matt Thorntons view on 'Aliveness' on the SBGi website for one side of the discussion.)

I'd interject here about comparison of the various disciplines, but then it will start to sound like those old B&W Hong Kong movies:

"Your fu is no good, my master's 'kicking crane' fu will destroy your worthless 'tiger paw' fu."

It's like this....you will use what you know, use it with the greatest intensity (force) to get the situation resolved, regardless of style, technique, ancientness, sportiness, combat-effectiveness, or whatever. These various skills are no different than the EDC/PSK you carry. You have to make do with whatever you have.

Final note: We were talking about a 3-yr old, now 5-yr old. They need to learn to make alot of noise when approached by a stranger and run like mad when they do.

Quickest way to teach your child how to fight… give them a sibling. Since Blast has already done that, now his job is to teach them how and when to stop fighting.

Hapkido

Agreed...wanted to train in Krav Maga myself, but the closest school is a three hour drive away...not practical in time or gas money these days...they have developed a Krav Kids program geared towards younger kids too...maybe someday...

Find a wrestling school or class. (or Judo or BJJ)

The best thing that an <5 year old can do is gain a sense of balance and understand what it takes to get out from under someone.

No offense but unless your goal is to have your kid kick other 6 year olds rear ends, most traditional MA practiced by a 5 year old are of very little use.

YMMV

I have to agree with Johnny. I've been taking martial arts since I was 12 (almost 28 yrs old now) but they've all been striking arts. While that's served me well, I will say I do VERY MUCH regret never taking a children's judo or school-based wrestling class. It would have benefitted me alot more in the long run as grappling is a difficult art to pick up for me as an adult.

I'd agree but the problem is teaching 'jutsu' techniques to children who may not have the self-control and discrimination not to apply them to class-mates. We are talking about 5-year olds here. By all means introduce the heavier stuff later. As for grappling , that tends to favor the weightier of us. I'd look at aiki-jitsu or hapkido for leveraging techniques.