A good friend of mine who was in Vietnam swapped his M16 for a Thompson and used it for his entire tour.

It doesn''t have to be a rifle in CQB, a SMG will be sufficient, unless suspects are wearing body-armour.

I'm sure the M-4 is a good rifle, but I just like the looks and arruracy of the MP-5.

Anyone know how the MP-5 .45 and the MP-5 10mm compare to these??

Everyone I know who carried a Thompson from WWII to Vietnam commented that while it had a hell of a muzzle flash, for stopping at close quarters and controlled automatic fire it was unbeatable. That pegs with just about everything from the law enforcement side of things I've ever read.

Then again, I also know there are people who are scared of the .45. *shrugs* To each thier own.

I'm sorry, when did I say in the post you are replying to that 5.56mm is a man stopper? I don't recall saying that, and I thank you to not put words in my mouth. What I did say can be rephrased as the those who claim the M-16 family is unreliable mechanically are 40 years out of date on thier information and they need to move on with thier lives.

While I do use the .223 cartridge myself for home defense I am also using those ultralight 45 grain soft points that basically disintigrate withing 3" of soft tissue. Nothing like near 100% energy transfere to bring a unpleasant situation to a screeching halt. But with the SS109 projectile, it sucks, no one who isn't a politician denies that. The SS109 was designed to poke holes in armour, and just doesn't work in soft tissue. For that reason, while I like .223/5.56mm for home defense and police work (where expanding ammunition is kosher, and out performs ANY non-prefragmented projectile in the 9mm/.38" class), for military work it needs help.

And the SA80 has had problems in more than just desert. It was just wasn't born right, and even the legendary engineers at H&K can't fix it. And I use that adjective quite intentionally. The cult of H&K is focused to much on the brand name. I like H&Ks, don't get me wrong, but they are not the last word in firearms, no one is. They've produced thier fair share of junk and gone down plenty of blind alleys over the years.

The whole reason why the MP5 was chosen in the 70s by certain units is becuase it was one of the first closed bolt SMGs, which improves accuracy, and it had a great barrel and trigger. To this day, there are few SMGs and PDWs which match it for single shot accuracy. That is critical in certain missions. That reason and pretty much that reason alone is why it was popular. By the time other people got on the ball, with things like the 9mm Colt, the Calicos, the evolved Uzi (Ruger MP-9) and various others, the MP5 had market dominance and maintains it by dint of there being so many of them in service. It was the "firstest with the mostest". 30 years later, there are weapons which are just as good, and some that are even marginally superior in that specific role, but until the MP5s wear out, no one is going to be able to budget to completely replace them. Oh, wait, the MP5s ARE wearing out.

A firearm is a tool, nothing more or less, designed for a particular role and best used in that role. Just like you while you can use a screwdriver as a prybar and as a chisel, don't whine if it does a poor job of either, and after a while doesn't work so well as a screwdriver any more.

Well, other than maybe in some video games, there never has been a .45 caliber MP-5. There might be ripoff of the MP-5 that uses .45, but not from H&K. There was, for a while, a .40 S&W version, which might be what you are thinking of.

And they work well, they just never really got a big market share. Which is a pity, because of all the SMGs made in the past 20 years, I've liked the on-paper potential of the MP-5/10 the best. Full pressure 10mm auto loads put it in the PDW class (and what it could do with sub-caliber pentrators in a light lead alloy bullet or a discarding sabot are VERY interesting), while the lower/FBI pressured loads match the performance of .45 ACP nicely. That versatility is why I love the 10mm cartridge. Nice, big bullets, that can pushed fast or slow as needed, good accuracy, and an ambidexterous safety (or in this case, trigger group) are a winner in my book.

I never heard anything about the .40 S&W version, other than a few law enforcement agencies adopting it in very limited numbers for thier tactical teams.

In terms of accuracy, at room range, the two are very similiar. But once you get out to 100m, there is a big difference. It isn't so much in group size as it is bullet drop. And while you can compensate for this with holding at a different point of aim, that kinda breaks down when the adrenalin is flowing and your buddy is screaming and and bleeding next to you.

And if you want to talk group size, don't try. The MP-5 does good, the mechanical potential of it's barrel, when fired from a machine rest with very good ammunition, is something like 1.5 to 2 minute of angle. The standard, military issue M-4/C-7 does that to, and the very good M-4-type rifles made by folks like Knights, Wilsons, and various other custom and semi-custom makers can beat that. You can get a 1 MOA capable M-4-type rifle for about the same cost as an MP-5 these days. At 10 meters, the difference doesn't mean didly, but at 100m, it can. That gives a good, well barreled M-4-type rifle with a decent trigger and good ammo much greater versatility than the MP-5.

One thing to keep in mind is that with expanding ammunition, 9mm still pentrates literally a dozen to a score of walls. 5.56 does about half of that. Or less, when you are using the super light, speed of thought projectiles I favor. THAT, and better range, not so much the ability to penetrate armour, is why people in law enforcement and hostage rescue are switching over. (The perp in body armour is a statistical fluke, and a nightmare that you use something with some legs against, or you just shoot them in the head. Thier faces are rarely armoured. In the North Hollywood shootout, it wasn't the lack of power on hand. A 12ga slug will beat as much or more armour as 5.56mm in most cases, but it doesn't have the range. LAPD just couldn't get close enough to amount to much until SWAT showed up.)

And yes, things like Glasers and Magsafes prevent overpenetration, but they are so expensive that they are just not feasible for training. And you train with ammunition you will use in the field when you are at that level, beucase there is no save button and there is no do overs. The only people who can justify to expense for these rounds as standard issue are air marshals, for obvious reasons. Also, they have a mixed rep when it comes to mechanical reliability- there are some teams that train specifically for dealing with hazardous enviroments where there are things that you just don't want to shoot who have revolvers specifically for using glaser-type rounds in those situations, becuase there is no failure to feed with a wheelgun.

Jim, don't take this the wrong way, but when I hear people saying they think the MP-5 is pretty, they usually are counterstrike players. You wouldn't by chance be one, are you? Pretty is in the eye of the beholder, which is why I think the Thompson is prettier than the MP-5. But I also say kids these days have no style. :P Nor do thier parents. There as been a distinct lack of classiness on this planet since the early 60s. :P

What about the sound suppression of the MP5SD? <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I think they are both pretty in their own right.. The Thompson with the wood accents, while the MP5 has it's "tacti-cool" look. One thing I can comment (having fired both), the Thompson is significantly heavier.. I mean, my guess would be the thompson is twice as heavy! Actually come to think about it, I think the thompson was almost as heavy as a M249!! <img src="/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

My guess is that he was referring to the UMP..

I didn't read ever post word for word, so this may have been stated (I know it has been hinted at). As Clint Smith puts it "A handgun is for fun and rifle is for real". A handgun is better than nothing, but its best application in a fight is for fighting to get to a long gun! That being said, a MP5K (or other PDW) would be better than a handgun in a situation where you have no long gun nearby... but only slightly. Pistol caliber ammunition is still pistol caliber ammunition regardless of the length of the barrel it is fired through!
Like Iron and others have said, the HK94 (aka MP5) series of weapons has a well and hard earned reputation. They are reliable, durable, accurate and can be made to be more than silent! The series has had a long lived life as the prominent SMG for LE and military operations in many countries. But even with the various calibers and configurations offered by HK94 series, it is extremely limited by it only being a pistol caliber weapon. This limitation prevents it from being accurate at extended ranges and prevents it from even approaching the terminal ballistics of a good rifle caliber weapon. At 10 yards it doesn’t make much of a difference, but at 25, 50, 100, even 300 yards it does!
I’ll take a M4 configuration of an AR-15 over a pistol caliber carbine any day! Like others have said, the AR-15 series of weapons have a unearned bad reliability reputation. But, for the cost of a MP5 you can get an outstanding top of the line AR-15 and optics. If I am in a situation where it is all about CQB… like my home, then it is a 12g Shotgun all the way. Nothing says “QUIT BEING AN [censored]” quit like 8-9 32cal balls flying at your head at 2000fps!
The MP5 is a great weapon, but I don’t think I’d describe it as pretty… the Thompson maybe. Some 1911s absolutely! But, I’ll stick to my Sig P220 and super ugly M4gery and Remmy 870!

Oh sorry, I ment the .40 S&W version



Nah, no counterstrike. Swat 4 once in a while, but that's about it. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I used to carry a FAL or as it is known in the British Army the SLR L1A1. So long as it is properly cleaned and maintained it's very reliable.
Oh and one other point: Any one who is shot with a 7.62mm Nato stays shot. Trust me on this one..... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />