Disclaimer: I'm no expert. My advice and opinion are worth what you paid for it.

FWIW, I hate this topic. But it is a valid issue and is better talked about than not IMO.



I don't think so. I've seen a fair number of bad tempered Goldens.

In the end tho, I think it is importaint to remember that individuals, not breeds that are the problem and that breed based laws are misguided.

And while there are obviously individual dogs who are "not right", I think most bad behavior can be attributed to the owners not properly training and socializing their dogs. And certainly not taking responsibility for thier dogs.

The big problem with these laws (and this behavior) is the dog always pays. We need responsible dog ownership and laws should be aimed at irresponsible owners, regardless of the breed.

Ok sorry about that... back on topic.

The first thing I suggest is that people who are likely to come in contact with a possible risk learn about it. In this case, I'd say that means everyone. :-) This isn't aimed at the posters here -- this is just a general statement. So, learn about dogs, esp. big dogs. Everyone should be able to read the basic attitude of a dog (agression, fear, play, etc.) through their stance (tail up, tail down, ears up, ears back, etc.). People should understand the difference between agression and fear, etc. Considering how many dogs there are in this country, I really don't understand why we don't cover this in school. Certainly parents should cover it IMO.

Anyway, understanding dogs can help avoid problems and problems should be avoided wherever possible IMO. :-)

In an encounter I think you quickly reach a fork in the road based on if the dog is agressive. IMO agressive dogs attack, they don't hesitate. In a situation where attacked by an *aggressive* dog, a focused and powerful opponent, you are in a fight for your life and you should probably react as such.

In such a situation I'd say my preference would be to have a firearm, and second choice would be an ASP style baton.

If the dog doesn't attack outright, I would try to ease myself out of the situation.

If you can't ease your way out I think it would be worth trying an OC spray. Perhaps the first blast between you and the dog where it just gets a whiff and hopefully decides to go somewhere else. Perhaps it will cause the dog enough pause to allow you to back away, or if needed, you can give it a full spray.

But (just like if your attacker was a human) you'd better have a backup plan. Again, I think an ASP baton or firearm are probably your best bets, but a rock, brick or whatever is going to be better than nothing.

Of course, this doesn't fit the situation of the original poster where the kids were involved. I'm more talking about if you are out running or whatever.

In the case of the original poster, I think he was correct to consider the dogs posed a risk to the kids and that the situation should be reported.

Perhaps the kids could have been made to go inside -- at least an attempt to get the parents to get the kids inside would transfer the burden of responsibility on the parents.

If it was known who the dogs belonged to they certainly should have been called to come get their dogs. Dogs running free isn't acceptable.

Unless you know the owners well, it should be reported to the police (if you know them well, you would able to get ahold of them and have them come deal with their dogs). Hopefully you have your cell on you and your neighbors in the address book.

If the police are relucaint to come, I would start asking the 911 operator how it will play out in the news if the dogs attack the kids and they had refused to respond. It's all on tape. I suspect it will get their attention.

BTW, here is a similar thread on CPF.

Be safe out there.

-john

I can see many parallels to the knife control debate, only applied to animals. Dogs don't maul people, inept and irresponsible owners' dogs maul people. I liked JohnN's post that some basic dog awareness should be taught to kids, either in school or by parents. Along with how to safely handle a knife as a tool, and not a weapon.

J

Pete, I have many friends and co-workers in EMS that are Moslems. I realize that Islam is a religion of peace. I mean, offend them in a cartoon and they behave completely rational. The Pope reads a 1000 year old quote and they are rioting, killed a nun in Somalia and threaten his life. I post the following quiz for you, I am sure it has been posted here before. Again, I will tell you I have numerous friends and co-workers of the Islamic faith.

"...One hundred percent of the successful terrorist attacks on commercial airlines for 20 years have been committed by Arabs. When there is a 100 percent chance of being hijacked by an Arab Muslim Extremist, it ceases to be a profile. It's called a 'description of the suspect...."
-- Ann Coulter

The Famous ROPMA.NET Muzzie Terrorism Quiz!
A multiple-choice quiz that tests your memory of Islam's crimes against the United States of America.
#1 In 1968 who assassinated Robert Kennedy?
(a) Abbie Hoffman
(b) Tiny Tim
(c) Charles Manson
(d) Muslim male extremist between the age of 17 and 40

#2 In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
(a) Olga Korbett
(b) Sitting Bull
(c) Arnold Schwarzenegger
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#3 In 1979,the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
(a) Lost Norwegians
(b) Elvis
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#4 During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
(a) John Dillinger
(b) The King of Sweden
(c) The Boy Scouts
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#5 In 1981, Pope John Paul II was shot 4 times in an assasination attempt by: (Updated by ROPMA Reader Michele.)
(a) Christopher Columbus
(b) Gene Simmons of "KISS"
(c) Vlad the Impaler,
(d) Muslim male extremists between the age of 17 and 40. (Name: Mehmet Ali Hagca)

#5 In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
(a) A Domino's pizza delivery boy
(b) Pee Wee Herman
(c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

#6 In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:
(a) The Smurfs
(b) Davy Jones
(c) The Little Mermaid
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

#7 In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
(a) Captain Kidd
(b) Charles Lindbergh
(c) Mother Teresa
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#8 In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
(a) Scooby Doo
(b) The Tooth Fairy
(c) Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid with dynamite left over from the train job.
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 ** Update - Libya Accepted Responsibility. Libya is a Muslim country. **

#9 In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
(a) Richard Simmons
(b) Grandma Moses
(c) Michael Jordan
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#10 In 1996 19 Americans were killed and hundreds more woulded at
the U.S. Military complex at Khobar Towers, Saudi Arabia because of attacks by: (Update by ROPMA Reader Steven K.)
(a) The Verizon Guy (Can you hear me now?)
(b) Domino's Pizza "noid"
(c)Clinton Administration Secretary of State Madeline Albright
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#11 In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers
(b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
(c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain: "Mustapha the Merciless"
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#12 In 2000, The USS Cole was attacked and more than 15 American Sailors were killed by:
(a) David Letterman
(b) Shaquille O'Neil
(c) The Cookie Monster
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#13 On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of people were killed by:
(a) Bugs Bunny, Wile Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd
(b) The Supreme Court of Florida
(c) Mr. Bean
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#14 In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
(a) Enron
(b) The Lutheran Church
(c) The NFL
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#15 In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
(a) Bonny and Clyde
(b) Captain Kangaroo
(c) Billy Graham
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#16 In 2001 Phillipene Missionaries Gracia and Martin Burnham were kidnapped, held for over a year, and Martin subsequently killed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers
(b) Scooby Doo & Shaggy
(c) Ronald Reagan
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#17 On July 4th 2002, 2 Innocent Airline Passengers Were Killed, And 3 Others Injured at the ticket counter of El Al Airlines in the LAX International terminal by:
(a) Hulk Hogan after losing the WWF Title
(b) The cast of Monty Python
(c) Senator Lil' Tommy Daschle
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 41

#18 On July 31st 2002 5 Americans were killed by a Palestinian HAMAS bomber in Jerusalem while attending school by:
(a) The US Congress
(b) The Tooth Fairy
(c) The Easter Bunny
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#19 On October 12th 2002 more than 200 innocent civilians (including 200 Australians and 5 Americans) were brutally murdered by:
(a) Kermit the Frog & Miss Piggy
(b) Bert & Ernie from Sesame Street
(c) Charles Barkley
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 41

#20 On October 29th 2002 more than 700 Moscow theatre goers were taken hostage and threatened with execution by:
(a) Royal Canadian Mounted Police
(b) Laurie Dhue of Fox News Channel
(c) Phil Donahue, of MSNBC, pissed because Fox News is kicking his ass
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 41

#21 This Quiz, Humorous While Still Being Factual In Nature Offends Mostly:
(a) Democrats, Who Seek To Impose A Politically Correct Mentality That Will Get Us All Killed
(b) Terrorist Sympathizers
(c) Terrorists Osama Bin Laden, Musab Al-Zarqawi & Their Evil Minions
(d) All Of The Above


Scoring The Quiz

1-5 Answers of "D" - You're a novice on the topic of terrorism, and likely to be killed by an Islamic Terrorist.
6-10 Answers of "D" - You have some knowledge of terrorism, but have lots of studying to do.
11-15 Answers of "D" - You're knowledgeable on the topic of terrorism, but need to brush up on current events.
16-20 Answers of "D" - You're a terrorism expert. It's likely the CIA could use your talents.

Timothy McVeigh was either Roman Catholic or agnostic, depending on what sources you believe. I don't recall religion playing any significant part in Theodore Kaczynski's actions either.

This thread appears to be on a crash course for lockage or worse.

-john

Spraying pepper spray in front of a dog will do NOTHING except waste pepper spray. Pepper spray is not a gas (like CN or CS "tear gas"), but is a fine powder suspended in a liquid. To be effective, the fine powder must come in contact with the eyes, nose, or mouth of the dog (or human). So, you must be a good shot. Also, it does not instantly stop a dog or human. There is a one to two second delay. Spray and move. Also, pepper spray does not work on some humans under the influence of some stimulants.

In the past, when I have been presented with a choice for close-in protection, I chose either a shotgun or impact weapon (if guns are not your thing or illegal where you are). Whatever happens, if you are attacked by a dog, expect to be bitten. Humans are usually easier to deal with, as many respond to the psychological deterent of a weapon (firearm or impact). A dog that is going to attack you will not be intimidated.

I guess my thinking is that it mist will still reach the dog's nose and he will get a whiff. I can't imagine that a little OC wouldn't hurt that impressive olfactory organ. If the dog is on the edge, trying to decide what to do, it might push him over to the side of moving along.

Also, I hope I was clear (in this post and the one that I linked to) that if the dog is agressive and committed to attack that you need something more effective than OC.

-john

Most small OC cans discharge in a stream. Misting requires much more pressure and volume, especially if there is any wind. OC works extremely well on cops, fire fighters, medics, and by-standers. Usually better than on the "bad guy". That is the purpose of the stream....better aim.

Regarding a dog committed to attack, I have been on the receiving end and I fed the dog a Streamlight SL-20 aluminum flashlight. She tore it from my hand and ripped through the aluminum casing with about the same effort (and enjoyment) that I tear into a really good deli sandwich. But in the dog's defense, I was on her territory, and surprised her. Her owner came out immediately and called her off. Once we were properly introduced, she was all puppy!

I had to return to that residence a couple of weeks later, and called her name from the sidewalk. She came running, ears up, tail wagging.

Good owner, good dog, doing what most of us would do if surprised by a stranger in our front yard. I'm just glad that the owner recognized the police uniform, because the dog did not. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good point. I was thinking of Fox Lab's 2 or 4 oz cans in "cone" configuration, were "cone" is being between a stream and a fog.

See their page for a picture of the spray types.

I totally focused on my choice (Fox's "stream") and forgot to state my assumptions.

FWIW, Fox also has inert cans for training.

-john

Training is the part of carrying OC (or other weapons) that people sometimes forget. Unlike firearms, OC has a very limited range. Practice in some wind, and a major OC disadvantage will become apparent. It is also good to practice from the ground, as most attackers (human or animal) will naturally take their victim down (gravity helps, of course). And "weak" hand practice is also important.

I've only had ONE runi in with a semi agressive dog - and I blame the owner.

Back in college, before I had a job, I was taking the bus home from work. One the walk from the bus to home there was a house with a dog that everyone KNEW was agressive. Well, that day, the owner of the house left the gate open - that dog came out that gate snarling and charging

Now, I DID say I was on the way home from work - as an ironworker! My fid wrench was in one hand, and my ball pean hammer was in the other before you cold blink, with my tool belt over my arm as a block - luckly I had enough warning to put my back towards a parked car! I was about to feed the dog the wrench while bashing it with the hammer when the owner came out of the house, grabbed his dog - an YELLED AT ME for threatening his dog!! I told him that he was lucky if I din't press charges, and that in about another 2 seconds he would have had a DEAD dog, and he better take better care that it did not get out in public and threaten me again

I love dogs - that was one of 2 dogs I've known that did not reciprocate. The other dog liked MOST people, just did not like ME (NO clue why - it took an immediate dislike, and never got over it)