On Friday morning, as I was out in the front yard setting out my lawn sprinkler, I was surprised by two large and very rowdy pit bulls. They were just rambunctious and not aggressive which was lucky for me since I had nothing in my pockets nor on my person to protect myself. Still, I made my way into my garage and grabbed a broom and managed to get them to back out of the garage onto the driveway. That would have been the end of it except for the fact that there was a group of elementary school students two doors down, outside - waiting for the school bus. It took almost 5 minutes before the constable's office answered their phone only to tell me that I was not in their area. Transfer to the county sheriff - the dispatcher had the nerve to ask me if the dogs were dangerous. Gee, I dunno, what's it take to turn a rowdy pair of pit bulls into carnivorous child eaters? Possibly not much. They didn't seem real interested in sending a deputy to watch over the kids or chase the dogs off/capture them/whatever. After transferring to animal control, another neighbor and I ended up watching over the kids until the school bus came.

Anyway, point of this story is that if the dogs wanted a piece of me, I would have been in deep you-know-what. At lunch, I bought some pepper spray that I have velcro'd up under the side rail of the bed of my pickup. Now I've got at least something to use. It also ocurred to me that it might be useful after a fenderbender if the other party becomes violent.

It is good to know that you are OK Had they been German Shepards or Dobermans you may have been dead.

Is there a leash law in your area? If not, I'm wondering what the concern was. Are pit bulls automatically a concern, any more than a pair of loose poodles or labs?

What are the statistics on Shepherds and Dobermans? Every Shepherd I've known has been excellent with children.

I'm not one of those alarmists that automatically equates pit bulls (or any other breed for that matter) with "dangerous dogs". I've had friends that owned pit bulls and they were wonderful, gentle pets. Unfortunately, lately there are a lot of ghetto pit bulls around here that are untrained, unloved, and unsupervised. They are bred (and inbred) by people who don't know diddley about dogs and bought by people that want them only as a status symbol. I am a dog owner myself and my dogs are well behaved and controlled. I wish I could say the same for other dogs in the area. It's sad sometimes.

Pitts usually aren't human agressive.. if they are it's a fault.
blame the owners not the breed!

Dog breeds as ' inbred killer' rotate faster than a TeeVee wrastling champion. I hate to tell you this, but the most popular breed statistically also was reported in more attacks in the last national survey. I'm talking Golden Retrievers. Whod'athunk! Just like nightmare Bears sizing up our potential calorie value vs dealing with swiss army knives, EVERY INDIVIDUAL IS POTENTIALLY A DANGER OR A NON THREAT.

THE STATISTICS - FATAL DOG ATTACKS IN THE U.S. FROM 1965 - 2001 *

Breeds Involved
Pit Bull and Pit-bull-type dogs (21%), Mixed breed dogs (16%),
Rottweilers (13%), German Shepherd Dogs (9%), Wolf Dogs (5%), Siberian Huskies (5%), Malamutes (4%), Great Danes (3%), St. Bernards (3%), Chow Chows (3%), Doberman Pinschers (3%), other breeds & non-specified breeds (15%).

"FATAL DOG ATTACKS"

This information came from a quick internet search. The link above shows that there were many factors aside from breed.

Golden rule with dogs. Let them check you out before doing anything. Never wave your hands around their heads and never, ever lean over a dog.

here in southern ohio, pit bulls/rottweillers, etc., are a real problem. many drug dealers are training fighting dogs by the dozens, some were busted recently. They have houses set up with treadmills, etc for training the dogs. we have vicious dog ordinances now, but I wish they would do more to eliminate this threat.

There is a local radio talk show host who has a saying. It is a take on "Not all Muslems are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims" It is: "Not all pit bulls are owned by drug dealers but all drug dealers own pit bulls"

My comment was a bit tongue in cheek. I believe that the hype about certain breeds is way overblown.

Good way of looking at both topics.

It may seem strange to some, but after giving one warning, the Tennessee County Farm Bureau's Insurance Agents will revoke a homeowner's policy for having a Pit Bull or for them having a renter who owns one. This was due to child attacks I was told.

My GF and I were running in the neighborhood yesterday. Passed a house and two smallish dogs (mixed breed) came charging out of the yard, barking, and went right to my leg. No sizing up, no hesitation, just teeth on skin. Luckly it was minor but we called the police who in turn called animal control. I didn't care about me, but we have a lot of kids in the area who wouldn't have faired so well. The worst part is that the owners tried to ignore the whole thing like it didn't happen. And go figure, this was the first run we were on where my GF did not carry her pepper spray. She carries it religiously since she was almost mauled to death by two boxers and a lab mix. Yes they were abused and runnng in a pack. The lawsuit is still out on that one.

Bill

We (the UK) just had a nasty incident involving 2 rottweilers. From the Telegraph report: "Witnesses say the girl was in her cot upstairs when she was seized by one of the dogs and dragged out on to a flat roof, where both set upon her. The alarm was raised but she died in hospital."

Who would want to bet alot of those "attacks" by Goldies were really meant to be playfulness and just ticked off a stranger or somebody enough to report it as one? Not saying a Goldie wouldn't attack though.

My dog is well over 70 lbs. and only 9 months old. He is mostly Goldie, some Yellow Lab in him. Lots of puppy left in him. He just wants to play. But he intimidates and scares the heck out of people when he gets playful. Off to obedience school. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I agree fully with the poster(s) who said it's the owner. I've known a few doverman (sp?), one of them I knew quite well was a good dog and very affectionate to his owner but very easily frightened... so I could never make sudden movements with him..

Unfortunately I've had two dogs on both sides of me who were beaten by owners (past / present). one was german sheppard one was a unknown breed. The other one would sneak up to you and try and nip your wrist when back was turned.
on a sad note both dogs were put down, all because of their prior experience with owners and couldn't be re-trained.
If the dogs had better owners or training I'm fully convinced that they would be different dogs.

I was going to bite my tongue on this one, as I try and stay out of topics that have the potential of becoming too contentious. I realize you were merely posting a comment made by another, from another form of media and utilizing it to make a comparison, but I find this statement to be false and truly offensive. Prior to the Twin Towers, you may recall Okalahoma City, the result of domestic terrorism.

This is an international forum, with several members who are of the Muslim Faith; I believe this statement is a terrible injustice to these members, especially as some have placed themselves at great peril while responding to terrorist attacks in their county.

<img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />Pete

Bump! Before you touch the dog or anything, play with him for a while so he sees you're friendly (throw him his favorite ball, whatever). But never touch his head upon contact, never.

Disclaimer: I'm no expert. My advice and opinion are worth what you paid for it.

FWIW, I hate this topic. But it is a valid issue and is better talked about than not IMO.



I don't think so. I've seen a fair number of bad tempered Goldens.

In the end tho, I think it is importaint to remember that individuals, not breeds that are the problem and that breed based laws are misguided.

And while there are obviously individual dogs who are "not right", I think most bad behavior can be attributed to the owners not properly training and socializing their dogs. And certainly not taking responsibility for thier dogs.

The big problem with these laws (and this behavior) is the dog always pays. We need responsible dog ownership and laws should be aimed at irresponsible owners, regardless of the breed.

Ok sorry about that... back on topic.

The first thing I suggest is that people who are likely to come in contact with a possible risk learn about it. In this case, I'd say that means everyone. :-) This isn't aimed at the posters here -- this is just a general statement. So, learn about dogs, esp. big dogs. Everyone should be able to read the basic attitude of a dog (agression, fear, play, etc.) through their stance (tail up, tail down, ears up, ears back, etc.). People should understand the difference between agression and fear, etc. Considering how many dogs there are in this country, I really don't understand why we don't cover this in school. Certainly parents should cover it IMO.

Anyway, understanding dogs can help avoid problems and problems should be avoided wherever possible IMO. :-)

In an encounter I think you quickly reach a fork in the road based on if the dog is agressive. IMO agressive dogs attack, they don't hesitate. In a situation where attacked by an *aggressive* dog, a focused and powerful opponent, you are in a fight for your life and you should probably react as such.

In such a situation I'd say my preference would be to have a firearm, and second choice would be an ASP style baton.

If the dog doesn't attack outright, I would try to ease myself out of the situation.

If you can't ease your way out I think it would be worth trying an OC spray. Perhaps the first blast between you and the dog where it just gets a whiff and hopefully decides to go somewhere else. Perhaps it will cause the dog enough pause to allow you to back away, or if needed, you can give it a full spray.

But (just like if your attacker was a human) you'd better have a backup plan. Again, I think an ASP baton or firearm are probably your best bets, but a rock, brick or whatever is going to be better than nothing.

Of course, this doesn't fit the situation of the original poster where the kids were involved. I'm more talking about if you are out running or whatever.

In the case of the original poster, I think he was correct to consider the dogs posed a risk to the kids and that the situation should be reported.

Perhaps the kids could have been made to go inside -- at least an attempt to get the parents to get the kids inside would transfer the burden of responsibility on the parents.

If it was known who the dogs belonged to they certainly should have been called to come get their dogs. Dogs running free isn't acceptable.

Unless you know the owners well, it should be reported to the police (if you know them well, you would able to get ahold of them and have them come deal with their dogs). Hopefully you have your cell on you and your neighbors in the address book.

If the police are relucaint to come, I would start asking the 911 operator how it will play out in the news if the dogs attack the kids and they had refused to respond. It's all on tape. I suspect it will get their attention.

BTW, here is a similar thread on CPF.

Be safe out there.

-john

I can see many parallels to the knife control debate, only applied to animals. Dogs don't maul people, inept and irresponsible owners' dogs maul people. I liked JohnN's post that some basic dog awareness should be taught to kids, either in school or by parents. Along with how to safely handle a knife as a tool, and not a weapon.

J

Pete, I have many friends and co-workers in EMS that are Moslems. I realize that Islam is a religion of peace. I mean, offend them in a cartoon and they behave completely rational. The Pope reads a 1000 year old quote and they are rioting, killed a nun in Somalia and threaten his life. I post the following quiz for you, I am sure it has been posted here before. Again, I will tell you I have numerous friends and co-workers of the Islamic faith.

"...One hundred percent of the successful terrorist attacks on commercial airlines for 20 years have been committed by Arabs. When there is a 100 percent chance of being hijacked by an Arab Muslim Extremist, it ceases to be a profile. It's called a 'description of the suspect...."
-- Ann Coulter

The Famous ROPMA.NET Muzzie Terrorism Quiz!
A multiple-choice quiz that tests your memory of Islam's crimes against the United States of America.
#1 In 1968 who assassinated Robert Kennedy?
(a) Abbie Hoffman
(b) Tiny Tim
(c) Charles Manson
(d) Muslim male extremist between the age of 17 and 40

#2 In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
(a) Olga Korbett
(b) Sitting Bull
(c) Arnold Schwarzenegger
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#3 In 1979,the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
(a) Lost Norwegians
(b) Elvis
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#4 During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
(a) John Dillinger
(b) The King of Sweden
(c) The Boy Scouts
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#5 In 1981, Pope John Paul II was shot 4 times in an assasination attempt by: (Updated by ROPMA Reader Michele.)
(a) Christopher Columbus
(b) Gene Simmons of "KISS"
(c) Vlad the Impaler,
(d) Muslim male extremists between the age of 17 and 40. (Name: Mehmet Ali Hagca)

#5 In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
(a) A Domino's pizza delivery boy
(b) Pee Wee Herman
(c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

#6 In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:
(a) The Smurfs
(b) Davy Jones
(c) The Little Mermaid
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

#7 In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
(a) Captain Kidd
(b) Charles Lindbergh
(c) Mother Teresa
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#8 In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
(a) Scooby Doo
(b) The Tooth Fairy
(c) Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid with dynamite left over from the train job.
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 ** Update - Libya Accepted Responsibility. Libya is a Muslim country. **

#9 In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
(a) Richard Simmons
(b) Grandma Moses
(c) Michael Jordan
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#10 In 1996 19 Americans were killed and hundreds more woulded at
the U.S. Military complex at Khobar Towers, Saudi Arabia because of attacks by: (Update by ROPMA Reader Steven K.)
(a) The Verizon Guy (Can you hear me now?)
(b) Domino's Pizza "noid"
(c)Clinton Administration Secretary of State Madeline Albright
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#11 In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers
(b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
(c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain: "Mustapha the Merciless"
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#12 In 2000, The USS Cole was attacked and more than 15 American Sailors were killed by:
(a) David Letterman
(b) Shaquille O'Neil
(c) The Cookie Monster
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#13 On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of people were killed by:
(a) Bugs Bunny, Wile Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd
(b) The Supreme Court of Florida
(c) Mr. Bean
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#14 In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
(a) Enron
(b) The Lutheran Church
(c) The NFL
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#15 In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
(a) Bonny and Clyde
(b) Captain Kangaroo
(c) Billy Graham
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#16 In 2001 Phillipene Missionaries Gracia and Martin Burnham were kidnapped, held for over a year, and Martin subsequently killed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers
(b) Scooby Doo & Shaggy
(c) Ronald Reagan
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#17 On July 4th 2002, 2 Innocent Airline Passengers Were Killed, And 3 Others Injured at the ticket counter of El Al Airlines in the LAX International terminal by:
(a) Hulk Hogan after losing the WWF Title
(b) The cast of Monty Python
(c) Senator Lil' Tommy Daschle
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 41

#18 On July 31st 2002 5 Americans were killed by a Palestinian HAMAS bomber in Jerusalem while attending school by:
(a) The US Congress
(b) The Tooth Fairy
(c) The Easter Bunny
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#19 On October 12th 2002 more than 200 innocent civilians (including 200 Australians and 5 Americans) were brutally murdered by:
(a) Kermit the Frog & Miss Piggy
(b) Bert & Ernie from Sesame Street
(c) Charles Barkley
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 41

#20 On October 29th 2002 more than 700 Moscow theatre goers were taken hostage and threatened with execution by:
(a) Royal Canadian Mounted Police
(b) Laurie Dhue of Fox News Channel
(c) Phil Donahue, of MSNBC, pissed because Fox News is kicking his ass
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 41

#21 This Quiz, Humorous While Still Being Factual In Nature Offends Mostly:
(a) Democrats, Who Seek To Impose A Politically Correct Mentality That Will Get Us All Killed
(b) Terrorist Sympathizers
(c) Terrorists Osama Bin Laden, Musab Al-Zarqawi & Their Evil Minions
(d) All Of The Above


Scoring The Quiz

1-5 Answers of "D" - You're a novice on the topic of terrorism, and likely to be killed by an Islamic Terrorist.
6-10 Answers of "D" - You have some knowledge of terrorism, but have lots of studying to do.
11-15 Answers of "D" - You're knowledgeable on the topic of terrorism, but need to brush up on current events.
16-20 Answers of "D" - You're a terrorism expert. It's likely the CIA could use your talents.

Timothy McVeigh was either Roman Catholic or agnostic, depending on what sources you believe. I don't recall religion playing any significant part in Theodore Kaczynski's actions either.

This thread appears to be on a crash course for lockage or worse.

-john

Spraying pepper spray in front of a dog will do NOTHING except waste pepper spray. Pepper spray is not a gas (like CN or CS "tear gas"), but is a fine powder suspended in a liquid. To be effective, the fine powder must come in contact with the eyes, nose, or mouth of the dog (or human). So, you must be a good shot. Also, it does not instantly stop a dog or human. There is a one to two second delay. Spray and move. Also, pepper spray does not work on some humans under the influence of some stimulants.

In the past, when I have been presented with a choice for close-in protection, I chose either a shotgun or impact weapon (if guns are not your thing or illegal where you are). Whatever happens, if you are attacked by a dog, expect to be bitten. Humans are usually easier to deal with, as many respond to the psychological deterent of a weapon (firearm or impact). A dog that is going to attack you will not be intimidated.

I guess my thinking is that it mist will still reach the dog's nose and he will get a whiff. I can't imagine that a little OC wouldn't hurt that impressive olfactory organ. If the dog is on the edge, trying to decide what to do, it might push him over to the side of moving along.

Also, I hope I was clear (in this post and the one that I linked to) that if the dog is agressive and committed to attack that you need something more effective than OC.

-john

Most small OC cans discharge in a stream. Misting requires much more pressure and volume, especially if there is any wind. OC works extremely well on cops, fire fighters, medics, and by-standers. Usually better than on the "bad guy". That is the purpose of the stream....better aim.

Regarding a dog committed to attack, I have been on the receiving end and I fed the dog a Streamlight SL-20 aluminum flashlight. She tore it from my hand and ripped through the aluminum casing with about the same effort (and enjoyment) that I tear into a really good deli sandwich. But in the dog's defense, I was on her territory, and surprised her. Her owner came out immediately and called her off. Once we were properly introduced, she was all puppy!

I had to return to that residence a couple of weeks later, and called her name from the sidewalk. She came running, ears up, tail wagging.

Good owner, good dog, doing what most of us would do if surprised by a stranger in our front yard. I'm just glad that the owner recognized the police uniform, because the dog did not. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good point. I was thinking of Fox Lab's 2 or 4 oz cans in "cone" configuration, were "cone" is being between a stream and a fog.

See their page for a picture of the spray types.

I totally focused on my choice (Fox's "stream") and forgot to state my assumptions.

FWIW, Fox also has inert cans for training.

-john

Training is the part of carrying OC (or other weapons) that people sometimes forget. Unlike firearms, OC has a very limited range. Practice in some wind, and a major OC disadvantage will become apparent. It is also good to practice from the ground, as most attackers (human or animal) will naturally take their victim down (gravity helps, of course). And "weak" hand practice is also important.

I've only had ONE runi in with a semi agressive dog - and I blame the owner.

Back in college, before I had a job, I was taking the bus home from work. One the walk from the bus to home there was a house with a dog that everyone KNEW was agressive. Well, that day, the owner of the house left the gate open - that dog came out that gate snarling and charging

Now, I DID say I was on the way home from work - as an ironworker! My fid wrench was in one hand, and my ball pean hammer was in the other before you cold blink, with my tool belt over my arm as a block - luckly I had enough warning to put my back towards a parked car! I was about to feed the dog the wrench while bashing it with the hammer when the owner came out of the house, grabbed his dog - an YELLED AT ME for threatening his dog!! I told him that he was lucky if I din't press charges, and that in about another 2 seconds he would have had a DEAD dog, and he better take better care that it did not get out in public and threaten me again

I love dogs - that was one of 2 dogs I've known that did not reciprocate. The other dog liked MOST people, just did not like ME (NO clue why - it took an immediate dislike, and never got over it)

Blame the deed -not the breed. I have had a pit bull, an AmStaff and an American Bulldog - they have all been great dogs. It's usually the owner / breeder's fault - ANY breed of dog can be made into an angry aggressive dog.

"There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damn lies and statistics." I think Mark Twain said that. If one is going to use statistics like that it should be kept in mind the popularity of certain breeds - Pits are extremely popular, so their biting incidence would be greater. There is also the method of collection to be looked at - many biting incidents are not reported if it's not that serious - unfortunately most biting incidents with pits will be serious simply as a function of the dog's strength. Also the fact that many people who shouldn't have anything more potentially dangerous than an aged hamster chose pits because of their athleticism. They are not responsible owners and the dogs are poorly (to say the least) raised. I'm sure that the statistics at some point in the past would have shown both dobermans and shepherds as being the Bitin'-est Dogs when they were The Dogs to have.

And the UK no guns, no knives (of any worthwhile type or size) brigade strikes again. Dobermans, like all large dog's require the instant application of focused deadly force to stop. And the shotgun (only firearm most British Citizens are allowed to own) is locked up in the gunsafe.
Result: one dead child.
Of course, anyone inflicting harm on the dog's then has a prosecution for causing animal suffering hanging over him. Probably brought by some well meaning idiot who cannot, or will, not see the differance between some......... (insert term of your choice here) who gets their sick kicks out of hurting animals and someone dealing with a deadly threat.

If I sound P.O'ed, you would be quite right.

Most bad dogs are bred by bad breeders and owned by bad owners. When a breed becomes popular, the puppymillers and backyard breeders start breeding every dog they can get their hands on. It all about money, and only money.

There are an enormous number of people who won't even attempt to control their kids, and people think they're going to control their dogs? Dream on!

Teaching kids how to act around dogs will never happen -- it makes too much sense. Parents think nothing of letting their toddler run up to a strange dog and grab it around the neck. If you block the kid with your body, the idiot parent gets offended and says, 'He won't hurt the dog'. HEY, STUPID! I wasn't worried about the DOG getting hurt by a two-year-old!

Children act like prey: they're small, they're fast, they make a lot of quick movements, and they make high-pitched sounds. They run in panic, encouraging even nice breeds with high prey drive to chase them.

And it isn't just the kids. Most adults don't know how to approach a strange dog, or one they don't see very often. The very first thing they want to do is to pet it's head, which appears as an aggressive move to many dogs. They don't know how to read dogs -- all wagging tails are not equal: there is a lot of difference between the full-tail wag and the nervous, uncertain tail-tip wag. Unfortunately, most people don't seem capable of learning very much.

The kids pay, the dogs pay, but the people causing the problems go merrily on their way.

Sue

I always find that the BEST thing to do with a dog when you first meet them is TALK to them - yes, talk.

Stop 5-10 ft from them and talk. At that point, I find (at least with ME) one of 2 things usually happens. The dog stops (and possibly sits), and gives me the "head cocked to the side" look, or the dog approches carefully. I just keep talking in a crooning voice, and depending on their reaction, leave my hand out at my side palm UP, or I'll crouch a bit, and put out my hand palm up, LOWER than his head. From there it's usually only a few minutes till the dog is getting ear scritchies, and the owner is shaking their head going "I don't know how you did that"

Of course, there are the dogs, you look at how they respond to the talking and you say "I think I'll pass on the petting - best leave this one alone" You do have to learn to read THEM