Hi Everyone,
I've been lurking for a few weeks, and have gotten some good info from the boards. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge. I thought I'd give it a whirl and post to introduce myself.

My husband & I live in southern California. We?re avid campers who (unfortunately) don?t get to go as much as we would like. I spend a decent amount of time on the ocean (kayaking & outrigger canoe paddling) and hiking in the foothills/mountains around the area. I made a point of learning the basics of using a map & compass, and recently completed an online Wilderness Survival course. We?re planning to do more backcountry camping & backpacking this fall/winter, and we?re looking forward to improving upon our skills. It?s very likely that I?m the only woman in Orange County with no plastic parts and no desire to hang out at the mall. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (Well, unless there?s an REI at the mall).

We?re working on our emergency supplies, although we do have a ways to go. As apartment dwellers with a one-car garage, we are limited in space. (Kayaks and 2 tons of camping gear live in the garage.) So far, we have a decent sized Rubbermaid tote with food for the two of us (and our two cats), that would last us at least 7 days after everything else in the kitchen is gone, given a ?shelter in home? emergency. I have a full 5-gallon water jug in the garage (which, needs to be moved up into the apartment), 3 additional gallon bottles of water, and three 2-liter Platypus bottles that I keep in the freezer. [If you aren?t familiar with Platypus bottles, they are excellent! We freeze them and use them in our coolers for car camping ? and they will help keep the refrigerator/freezer cool in the event of an electricity loss. Then, afterwards, cold drinking water is ready and waiting.]

I'm betting that in any sort of "shelter in place" order, my husband & I are likely to be among the only people in a 5-10 square block area that even have any sort of plan at all, much less food/water supplies. But I'm CERTAIN that there are others in the area that are well armed.

QUESTION: What seems like a reasonable firearm choice in our situation? We are in a four-unit apartment building, facing the street. The neighbors that we know are decent people, but you never know what other people will do in a crisis. I?ve been hesitant to own a gun, although my brothers and father have had them for quite some time. A friend of my husband is getting a 9mm to keep at home in case the SHTF. He and his fianc? are going to the shooting range for lessons/practice. Would a 9mm be the way to go? Would a small caliber shotgun be better/safer? Reasons either way?

Thanks in advance for your advice!

OhOh, a firearm thread. I'll post before this hits 100 replies. By firearm you seem to be implying a handgun for urban defense. You have no experience. I am going to suggest a rather bread and butter OLDER Smith and Wesson, RUGER or Colt double action in .357 magnum or .38 spl( thoroughly checked by a gunsmith for timing and trigger pull.) You have several frame sizes that can be matched to your grip and reach of finger along with countless aftermarket improved grips. You can learn, practise and USE The .38 special in both pieces.The 38 is a relatively easy cartridge to shoot, accurate and available in a wide variety of load configurations including snake shot, Glaser safety slugs ( for those thin apt walls) and '+P' loads approaching .357 magnum power. This is also an excellent trailgun if you worry about lions, dogs or our fellow bipedals. A DA revolver is a SAFE firearm. You can readilly see if it is loaded and bringing one into action requires merely picking up and pulling the trigger. The safety is in that heavier DA pull, not foolproof but a deterrent to little hands. This thread is going to very quickly get buried in ballistics, anecdotes, myth and legend. I think OLD BALD GUY and our other law enforcement members will concur.

HappyCamperToo,

First, welcome to group. It sounds like you are well on your way to being ready for stuff.

Secondly, listen to Mr. Kavanaugh. In some cases you may have to read between the lines (often with a dictionary, history book and a Tibetan guidebook near at hand<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), but on gun threads he is definately a man from which much can be learned.

-Blast, who also has prepared wife.

I third Chris's revolver recommendations --- real, no nonsense, sound advise.

You took the words right out of my mouth. After reading this forum over the last several years, there are a lot of very opinionated gun owners on this site. For a new shooter, who may not get to practice much, a 38 special revolver makes a lot of sense (or even a 357 revolver loaded with 38 special amunition). They are very simple to use. Point, pull trigger. No safeties to worry about, nothing to break. Frangible bullets would work well in the close confines of an apartment without the danger of penetration into your neighbors space.

A 9 mm would also work, but if you don't spend time practicing, could cause issues under stress. Racking the slide to load a round, manipulating the safety, magazine issues. I like them and practice with them. Frangible rounds are also available for 9 mm, as well as most other pistol sizes.

Whatever you end up with, practice. Most self defense gurus say you should shoot a minimum of 500 rounds of your self defense ammo through your weapon of choice so that you are certain that it will perform when required. 500 rounds of frangible ammo will fairly well break the bank. Certainly you should shoot 500 rounds of something that looks similar in profile, and at least two boxes of your self defense ammo.

It is always good to hear of someone new taking up shooting.

Well, I won't attempt to answer the firearm question as I am way too much of a novice but I will say Hello and welcome to a fellow Orange County dweller who has a wife without any plastic ( except what is in her purse ) and only spends time at a mall when she needs something. And like yourself, REI is a favorite of hers.
So, stick around and you will learn alot from a bunch of interesting and friendly folks on this forum. I know I have.
:Kenn

Welcome aboard. I'm Grumpy- the other dwarves will introduce themselves later. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think most people here are probably going to agree with Chris on this one. A medium frame revolver is about as idiot proof as you can get, and used ones are inexpensive enough. A good, used Smith, Colt or Taurus with a 3-4" barrel shouldn't put you back more than $200 dollars, and that is on the high side. For a gun that isn't going to be a field gun terrifically often, I'm not sure if I'd put too much emphasis on getting stainless steel. Just remember to clean it.

I would also suggest some things to go with:
At least one speedloader (a gadget that holds a cylinder's worth of ammunition that has a push button release)- that way you can store it unloaded and still load it in a few seconds. (Enough time to wake up.) It isn't that much, may 20 bucks if you buy pricy ones, but you want one that will release the rounds easily. Try it in the shop before you buy.

Try to get tritium or fiberoptic inserts on the sights- you can't see your sights in the dark if they are plain steel. That's a gunsmith job for most folks, but worth every penny becuase you can now use your sights in darkness (or near darkness with the fiber optics- it's suprising how much light they can grab).

A BRIGHT light, like a Surefire G2 or a Streamlight Scorpion. You won't use it all the time, but flash it. These things will get your attention, and at point blank range into dark adapted eyes, it's almost a physical force.

A second revolver, built on the same size frame as the .38, but in .22 Long Rifle. You can buy a "brick" of 500 rounds of .22 for less than 50 rounds of normal .38 or twelve rounds of Glasers or Mag-Safes (extremely effective AND they are probably the safest pistol rounds for indoors). Try to shoot with the .22 at least once a week until you can cover the group you make in paper at a distance similiar to, say, the distance between the far side of your bed and the door to your bedroom. And even then, weekly or at least monthly practice is recommended, so you can keep your skills sharp.

Some cheap practice ammo for the .38. The .22 is a good trainer, but the .38 will kick more and bark louder, so you'll have to be familiar with that. Even though you might be doing the bulk of your range time with the .22 becuase of expense, the .38 is what you'll be counting on. Just remember to keep the practice stuff and the defensive stuff seperated.

Crimson Trace grips aren't terrifically expensive, and I would consider them a worthwhile option for a lot of reasons. They are replacement grips that contain a laser sight, which has psychological and tactical advantages for you (people know the little red dot is NOT thier friend- again, if you can get out of it with shooting someone, great). However, you need to learn to shoot without the projected aiming point (batteries die at the darnedest times), which is what the .22 and cheap .38 ammo is for.

I will add my welcome aboard and also suggest that a .357 magnum loaded with .38 special is a good choice. It is what my lady uses, and I have no issues with her choice. I should also add that I carried a .357 magnum for many years as a LEO, and it worked every time.

BUT....a pistol and a shotgun are not mutually exclusive. If there are two of you, two firearms might be handy. And a pistol and a shotgun compliment each other well. That is why the combination has been used in police vehicles since they were invented.

But, no matter what you finally decide, please get quality instruction (especially shoot/don't shoot instruction), and practice frequently. If you ever need to use a firearm in anger, the life you save will be your own, and probably your loved ones as well.

I'll make one final observation before retiring to monitor the ballistics shootout to follow. I get a laugh out of 'survivalist' forums that talk about black helicopters hovering over the back yard, yet post multiple download photos of their personal arsenals. People, like your friends with the 9MM have this compelling need to 'show off' firearms. It's one of those red button social objects like new cars or a puppy. I've owned 6 different 1911s. My shooting friends will by one and still hand it over for my admiration, as if something has changed in nearly 100 years. Do yourself a big favor, and make like Elmer Fudd- " be vewy, vewy quiet" and discrete about firearm possession. Firearms are actually a prime target of burglaries. Guns carry a disproportionate social burden in today's society compared to a few generations ago. A little discretion alleviates much of it. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My non-Mall wife and I had this same discussion several weeks ago and came to a different conclusion--instead of a handgun we bought a shotgun (Remington 870 pump action 12 gauge), which I promptly modified to hold a total of 10 rounds.

I'm not disagreeing with Chris' reccomendation. With a small child in the house, and no cheap means of securing a handgun (biometric lock boxes are around $400), the shotgun was the best choice _for us_. We own a house in a reclaimed inner city neighborhood; the shotgun is loaded with birdshot, which is lethal at bedroom range. I have slugs and 00 buck in quantity available "for the marauding hordes of looters" if necessary <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'd prefer a 1911, but the wife is more comfortable with a longarm. Your mileage may vary.

Yep, Chris, you hit the nail on the head with that one.

Thank God, another woman on this board! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Welcome!

I didn't notice anyone advising you to get some training before you get a firearm, so I will.

I also agree with the .38/.357 revolver recommendations for a handgun, and the 12 gauge with 00 buck for a long gun.

OK, without this falling into a guns debate, let me give you just some dry facts.
temper what you read here with the fact that I am an NRA life member (also a member of the ACLU and a host of other traditionally "left" and "right" organizations)

First of all, a gun won't make you safer, won't protect you from harm, and won't do a damn thing to improve your lot in life unless you know how it works, know how to shoot and always remember that shooting skills are terribly perishable.

Secondly, having a gun does not mean a bad guy will magically drop when shot like in the movies. In fact, there's plenty of times that people are shot multiple times and keep coming. So don't think "boom" = "safe" - it's much more than that.

So, without having gone through the whole list of replies to your post, I'll just put in that the guns that are easiest to operate "effectively" - as in you'll probobly HIT what you point at are, in order, a shotgun, a rifle, a handgun.

I can't stress enough how much practice it takes to be a good shot with a handgun. Not just your initial practice, the ongoing, never-ending drilling you need. I also can't stress enough that a handgun requires extra-special dilligence in terms of responsible handling and storage.

If your intention is to scare off a looter, then probobly a shotgun is your best bet. In terms of popularity and usability, it comes down to two choices, the Remington 870 series and the Mossberg 500 series. I like the Mossberg 500 better than the 870, but that's a matter of how they handle and feel differently. In both cases I load my home defensive weapons with 1 round of #6 Shot (a fine, almost kosher-salt sized pellet of lead), 1 Round of #4 Shot (a bigger bit of lead), then 2 rounds of Buckshot - heavy large pellets.

HTH

Thanks for all the input, and your warm welcome!

I obviously have LOADS of learning to do. (Like the pun? <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) We will certainly consider everyone's suggestions very carefully, and rest assured, there is no way that we'd purchase anything without serious training/instruction. I have tremendous respect for weapons in any form.

I suspected there were a few other females on the boards...I'm glad to know I won't be alone here! Also good to know that there are fellow OC people here! So, when the SHTF, I'll see you guys in gridlock on the 5?? lol

Regarding my husband's friend...he was pretty discreet about discussing the new gun. And I understand what you're saying about keeping it on the DL. They were actually in a discussion about some severely under-reported story out here about 2 guys that apparently were caught attempting to set fires outside L.A. recently. His coworker said that the story was really low key, but supposedly there was much more to it...not sure what the deal was, but he heard there were many more involved. As far as I know, it was a bunch of rumors; I have no idea where his info came from.
Anywho, his friend brought up the preparedness topic, and my husband mentioned that it would probably be a good idea to have extra food and water on hand "just in case."
The coworker agreed, and said he and his fiance are working with an area gun dealer, trying out different guns, and getting instruction. They won't get their 9mm until they are done with instruction. They have some emergency supplies on hand, and decided to get a gun that could be used to make sure they don't have to share their supply "unwillingly."

Thanks again to everyone! I look forward to reading & learning more on these boards!

It will be interesting to see what SgtMike88Ret has to say.

I lived in the San Diego area for about ten years when I was young.

I am not LE but was in the US Army for seven years and have been interested in the subject for the last 40 years. I have owned handguns in: .22, .380, 9mm, .38 spl, .40 S&W, .45 apc, .45 long Colt, .357 mag, .41 mag, and .44 mag. Self protection has been my primary interest. I have owned shotguns and rifles along the way. I have no loyalty to any brand of gun or caliber. If anything better comes along I?ll drop what I have and get what works the best.

Shotguns and rifles are deadly but not good for home defense. It is very hard to negotiate rooms and doorways in a dark house with a long gun. It is too easy to have the barrel where the bad guy (BG) can grab it. Having been there; one of the most stressful/dangerous situations is a knock on the door in the middle of the night. You are not going to answer the door with a shotgun or rifle in your hands. It is easy to hold a handgun along your leg (out of sight). If you are in contact range a long gun will be hard to control. A handgun can be held close to your side (chest) and fired out of reach of the BG. A quick push and retract with your weak hand will put the BG where you want him. If the BG is able to grab the front of your handgun: take a step back and the muzzle will be pointing where it will do the most good.

I hate handgun advice to new shooters. They always recommend something the new shooter will transaction out of. Why not have them start with guns we end up with? Look around at the people you see everyday carrying handguns: the police. What are they carrying? Glock handguns. Why? They are simple and reliable. What caliber are they using? .40 S&W hollow points. Why? It gets the job done. If it?s good enough for the people that are in danger of getting in a gunfight everyday it should be good enough for us. I use the Glock 23.

What about light? A tactical light mounted on the rail of the Glock is a wonderful thing. I use an M3. Before you shoot you have to identify your target. The ?I didn?t know it was the drunken neighbor? will not cut it in court. Second, it will temporarily blind the BG while you take care of him. Tritium night sights can?t be beat! Focus on the front sight and concentrate on the trigger pull!

Like the man said: "shooting skills are perishable." If you don?t practice you will have false confidence about your skills. 50+ rounds once-a-month is a good minimal skill maintenance level. Professional training is great if you can get it. If not, get some videos on self defense with a handgun.

What about storage? Get a small document firebox. Line it with foam and keep your handgun loaded and locked up.

For fun and practice you can get an Advantage Arms .22lr slide adapter. I have one and it works great! Accurate and reliable! <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />



What does Mr. Ritter carry? A Glock 22 .40 S&W. on your own

i would suggest that you undergo some compentent training first and then consider what type/cal., etc. weapon you should consider. [color:"red"] [/color] [color:"][/color"]

Find a well-run range. Take a safety course. Learn how to shoot various firearms by renting them at the range and have a qualified instructor help you. Pick ones that fit your physical capabilities. You'll soon enough know which weapon with which you are most comfortable (say that 3 times real fast). As others have stated, simple - safe DA pistol or shotgun with small shot - but use what feels best to you. And practice. Don't forget to purchase plenty of rounds and come back to the range now and then to brush up. And before you buy, brush up on your local and state firearm laws (the range instructur should be a big help there as well).

It's a large mental and social committment when you purchase a gun, so consider all variables that you can *before* you buy. Be prepared for WHAT *could* happen, including defending your life by taking another, or the accidental harm that could happen. Always - Always verify your target. I like the light idea mentioned earlier. As a long time gun enthusiast, whenever anyone tells me that they are buying a gun for the first time, my first question is not a breathless "which one!" but a subdued and thoughful "why?"

Actually, with revolvers, it's really easy and really cheap:

Open the cylinder, and put a padlock around the topstrap. For obvious reasons, I recommend a key rather than a combination lock. The key can be put into the lock every night, but you have to remember to take it out in the morning, otherwise it is self defeating; either that, or hang the key in a near by but inconspicous place (like behind the headboard on a lanyard that you can find by feeling quickly). A high end padlock runs about 12-15 dollars, and if the cylinder won't close, a revolver is a poor club- safer than that is hard to do with a firearm.

I just wanted to throw out a few ideas that haven't been covered, one, Massad Ayoob writes some decent books. I'd recommend In the Gravest Extreme as a starter text. I don't agree with all of Mr. Ayoobs teachings, however this book is excellent.

Second, depending on stature, a 20ga shotgun may be a better choice for you. I know all the arguments about a 12ga is bigger etc, but a 20ga is faster for subsequent shots and you can get rounds that are fairly comprable. Just an idea.

Last though, you are roughly 8 hours from arguably one of the best training facilities available to civilians in the US and the world, which is Gunsite. (www.gunsite.com) Training there is top notch. There are a lot of people who claim to know about something and frequently don't. It's unfortunate and until you have enough knowledge to see through the smoke and mirrors you can get some bum info. A course there would not be the cheapest and it would be quite a drive, but may be worth your while.

One more thing, there is a lot of information and responsibility when it comes to gun ownership, don't get discouraged. Also, as Chris mentioned, everyone has an opinion, think large grain of salt when dealing with people <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Another somewhat overlooked option are the now pricey M1 carbines. With commercial softnose cartridges in a compact package this is a very effective house gun. I stick to advocating my bread and butter approach, though my last few social engagements used anything but! There was something about my C96 Mauser AND a Colt New Service 7 1/2" Target in .45 that intimidated this would be antagonist with his Jennings .25 held sideways. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Either one would make an impression on me. But I'll bite... why did you have both? And why was someone antagonizing you with a little .25 like that?

ironraven,

That is a great idea to keep the key in the lock at night! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I was walking out of shooting range with a off duty officer! This genius gangmember figured it was a good location to upgrade. My shooting partner allready had his off duty piece drawn and moving around my right side. I merely used Butch Cassidy's motivational technique ( and reason for carrying the 7 1/2' SAA) and banged the New Service HARD on my assailant's nose. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

In most locations, you might have a point. The original poster lives in California, where (AFAIK) anything larger than a 10-round magazine is illegal. There is something nice about a 15-round mag, but not if owning one will get you arrested.

Given this restriction, a Glock will only hold four rounds more than a revolver. I say go for the revolver.

Now, if a person wants to shoot as a hobby, a nice little 9mm semi-auto will be far easier on the wallet for an hour or two at the range than any other centerfire caliber known to man. Semi-autos are also simply more fun than revolvers, IMHO. But that is another discussion entirely.

You have received so much good advice already, (most of which I actually agree with!!!), that I am going to say only one thing, and it is the most important, and can not be said too many times: If you are going to have a firearm of any kind for self protection, you MUST have the mindset to actually use the weapon against another human being when the time comes. You will not have time to think it over then. If you have not already made that decision and the time comes, you will end up with the bad guy having your gun.

And you must know the laws re lethal force in your area(some states will allow you to shoot anyone who enters your residence uninvited, others will fry you).

You will probably be arrested on the spot, and the bad guy, or his survivors, will try to sue you for wrongfull death, you name it.

So be prepared for the aftermath of your actions. Then blast the SOB!!!

You called? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-Blast

Statistically, that is when you are most likely to need it. By the time you have opened the drawer, found the key, and remembered which way it turns, you are awake. The funny space between asleep and awake, your brain isn't running so well, you are working as if you were drunk.

Or did I miss the compliment and mistake it for sarcasm? *scratching behind ear* If so, sorry, been a long day.

Me, I always looked at the guys who keep the cocked and locked .45 under the pillow as a DIY lobotomy waiting to happen. And it can't be comfortable to sleep on.

hahahahahaaaa

What are the odds???

No sarcasm.

I have wondered if I woke up in the middle of the night if I would put the key in backward, be in panic mode and break it off and not be able to get to my Glock 23.

Ah, ok, it was a long day.

Actually, thats part of why I suggest this- if you snap off the key, at least you can throw the lock at them and THEN shoot. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have some of the choices mentioned, but for me and my wife and kids (in SoCal) I just keep the 20 guage pump action next to the bed. The kids can't rack the slide, and it has a safety. I did practice plenty at the range with it, and I would recommend you do the same. Buy the cheap 20 guage #7 when it's on sale, and fire away. You'll get the hang of it.

If you go this route, I'd strongly recommend getting a "tactical" flashlight mounted on it. It's the thing I really need, and didn't realize it at the time.

As an aside, check out the web site "the box of truth" too, for some insight into just how much drywall penetration you get with conventional pistol rounds. It's good knowledge to have.

Here is a great site as far as concealed weapons go. Good background information and links to various state statutes, etc:
http://www.packing.org/

Here's a link to NRA basic firearms training courses:
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/basictraining.asp

+1 for the Glock 23. It does have a trigger safety, if that is a concern to you. Also, be sure that you have additional insurance. God forbid you are involved in a shooting; your home, car, and everything else you've worked hard for are at risk. You want to protect yourself and your family in the short term AND the long term.