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#71525 - 08/20/06 08:20 PM Re: Gear for young children
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Try small non-load bearing carabieners both ends of the tape. That way, all they have to do is clip it into place.
Having young children on these trips is going to give any responsable adult grey hairs at the best of times. I suggest you establish a "sudden death" line for the kids. As in "don't go beyond that point or you might die suddenly and horribly." Just to keep it interesting........

By way of a small tale to illustrate the point - I went to see a friend of mine last winter over in Maidenhead. In order to get to her flat, I have to cross a local park. I had a bag on my back with a few EDC items in it. The park ain't lit, so I used my headtorch. Crossed the park, walked through an allyway and into her road. Took the head torch off and clipped it to my bag. My friend has a young son called Scott. Age 5. Nosey little sod. Asks a lot of questions. Every second one is "Why?"
It takes him a whole 0.01 seconds to spot my head torch.
Bear in mind that parks at night are dangerious places for adults let alone kids.
The subsequent conversation went some thing like this:
Scott: "Whats that?"
Me: "A head torch. I wear it on my head so that I can see in the dark"
Scott: "Why?"
Me " Because I have to cross the park and there are Monsters in the park."
Scott "Monsters?"
Me: "Yes"
Scott "Why?"
Me: " So that the monsters can see me coming."
( At this point, his mum is making your digging yourself in deeper... gestures behind him.)
Scott: "Why?"
Me: " So that the monsters can get out of my way."
Scott: "Why?"
Me: "Because I will happen to them if they don't!"
Scott: "Oh...."

The point I was making to young Scott is that the park is a no go zone.
_________________________
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#71526 - 08/20/06 08:37 PM Re: Gear for young children
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2210
Loc: NE Wisconsin
To all,

What exactly is the child expected to do with the surveyor's tape?

The expectation is that the children (and most adults) would stay put and make themselves as findable as possible. It seems that big (33 gallon) bright orange plastic bags waving in the breeze would be much more noticable than a small strip of bright plastic hanging from something.

I know Cody Lundin recommends them, and I can see the utility of the survey strips if an adult is traveling (more typically a survival no-no though) as they would identify the path of travel, and can be used to write notes to searchers (date/direction of travel/plan).

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#71527 - 08/21/06 12:28 AM Re: Gear for young children
aloha Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1059
Loc: Hawaii, USA
My five year old can tie her own shoe laces and come up with some pretty interesting knots, but I think it might be safer for her to stay put and blow her whistle, if she ever got separated from the group than to string up the marking tape. I carry marking tape and talk about how to mark the trail as we go.
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http://hanzosoutdoors.blogspot.com/

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#71528 - 08/21/06 01:54 AM Re: Gear for young children
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
Quote:
The majority of parents just say "Don't", and blithely go on their way, assuming that the kid is actually going to obey.

One thing Kuovonne has drilled into me is that I'm not allowed to just say "Don't" to DD. I have to give an explanation to DD as to why I don't want her doing a particular thing, then I have to have DD explain back to me why doing/touching/licking said thing is bad. It's time consuming but the overall results have been wonderful.

Quote:
A hundred years ago, kids grew up with knives, guns, shearing and crushing equipment and livestock, and knew how to handle all of them.

Um, actually a lot of kids were crushed, burned, bitten or killed back then. My parents, aunts, and uncles are all in there 70's and grew up on farms. You'd have to add a several of them together to get a full two-hands worth of fingers and they are the ones that lived. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

-Blast
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#71529 - 08/21/06 02:39 AM Re: Gear for young children
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Oh, I'd say the time is when both agree they are ready, or a few days after the belt's been applied.

Only two ways to get the belt in my family- playing with fire, and with firearms.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#71530 - 08/21/06 03:11 AM Re: Gear for young children
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Way to go, now he's going to be scared of the park forever.

Of course, I'm no better. I consider "enter sandman" a lullaby, and tell kids *don't worry about the things that go bump in the night, worry about the ones that aren't clumsy and can see in the dark- those ones will get you before you know they are there." <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#71531 - 08/21/06 03:20 AM Re: Gear for young children
duckear Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/01/04
Posts: 478
Five year olds?

Whistle
Bright Poncho
Water
Snack
cheapie LED flashlight....they will lose it!
If lost, teach them to hug a tree, cover up with poncho if needed and blow the whistle.

Don't try to teach them everything at once.

As far as knives, every kid is different. I got all my kids Victorinox MY FIRST SAK PLUS. They have a combo tool (bottle/can opener/flat screwdriver) a blade with a rounded tip and a saw. My kids love the saw. The first time out, after the safety briefing <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> was cutting walking sticks and stripping the bark off of them. Good lesson in both saw and blade use.


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#71532 - 08/21/06 03:37 AM Re: Gear for young children
Ors Offline
Namu (Giant Tree)
Addict

Registered: 09/16/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Florida, USA
Quote:
I disagree.
One of the first tasks a child learns is how to tie a knot, i.e. I can tie my shoes. A child that is to young to tie there own shoes will likely not be old enough to remember much of anything if or when they get lost. At that age they should never be alone in the outdoors or have an opportunity to stray from camp
It is aslo likely some young ones will wander off and likely they will not have a survival kit or know what to do with one either even if they had one.


I would challenge you to tie 30 feet of surveyor's tape exactly the same way you would tie your shoes.

Young children don't necessarily adapt concepts the way adults do. This has nothing to do with how smart they are, or how well they've been taught. It is simply a developmental fact. The human brain takes time to develop and evolve. That's not an opinion...it is a fact.

Presenting a young child with a flat surface to tie (tape) when they have learned to tie a shoelace knot (that is not useful for tying long tape around objects anyway) with a small, most likely round shoelace, especially when the child is under stress from being lost, chances are the thought of even trying to use that shoelace knot to tie surveyor's tape around a tree branch, assuming someone three and a half feet tall could reach a tree branch that would make the tape visible, would not occur to the child. I'm not saying that kids aren't smart, I'm just saying that biology determines that certain types of brain functions...reasoning, logic, concrete operational, formal operational...these things take time to develop.

You can disagree all you want...diversity in opinions makes things interesting.

For me, I wouldn't base my child's visibility and recovery chances on shoe tying ability.

Maybe that's just me.
_________________________
Ors, MAE, MT-BC
Memento mori
Vulnerant omnes, ultima necat (They all wound, the last kills)

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#71533 - 08/21/06 06:13 PM Re: Gear for young children
frediver Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 215
Loc: N.Cal.
I guess what I am saying is that if your child can't tie a knot or be taught to tie a knot then they fall into the 100% supervision catagory. It's putting the tape in a straight line that really counts most kids can at least do that.
<><

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#71534 - 08/21/06 06:46 PM Re: Gear for young children
Anonymous
Unregistered


When I take my son (5 years old) camping I always attach a bear bell to him so that I can hear him and easily locate him. He also carries a Fox40 whistle around his neck, which he knows to use whenever he is scared, lost, or can't see us. He wears bight clothes to enhance his visibility. At dusk I give him two glow sticks one I attach to him, the other so he can play with it. I do not think my son in an emergancy (lost, hurt, whatever) would have the mind to tie 150' of tape on a trail.

5 year olds might seem like little people but they do not have the ability to think problems thought. Untill a child is around 8 they should be supervised 100% when outside of there comfort area.

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