My wife has expressed an interest in learning to use a weapon for self/home defense and my suggestion was to have her train on a handgun. ( I minimally train and qualify on one for work purposes, but am not an expert) . A law-enforcement friend has suggested that a shotgun might be more appropriate for the purpose and believes that a standard (and locally available) 8 hour course would provide adequate training. Neither of us do any shooting for sport or hunting purposes. I don't know anything about shotguns or their advantages and disadvantages, and am frankly skeptical that one 8 hour course would be enough for someone to be properly trained. Any opinions or direction to a source of information would be greatly appreciated. <br><br>Thanks much.....Robb

IMO: No-brainer - shotgun. Gauge matters a little - 12 prefered; 20 OK. If a 12, reduced-recoil loads or light loads might be a good idea. If a 20, there are not reduced recoil loads readily available, so lighter payload/velocity loads like target or upland game loads best bet. (A heavy 20 load in a lightweight gun kicks harder than an average 12, IMO) Forget .410; likewise, 28 gauge is wimpy for that purpose. 16 would be OK but ammo selection is limited. A 20 gauge on a 12 gauge frame or action would be a good compromise between recoil and effectiveness - altho it won't matter in a real situation, and my petite wife never has had any problem with 12 gauges.<br><br>GENERALLY speaking, no need for buckshot inside the house. I would, however, advise against very small birdshot. Nothing smaller than # 5 - say something in the # 4 to # 2 range (I'm talking lead, not steel). OTOH, buckshot is good.<br><br>Action? Break-open double barrel is simple; lacks rapid third and beyond shots for all but the most skilled Can be expensive. Pumps are universal and make an unmistakable bone-chilling sound when the action is cycled to chamber a round. Autos are great for recoil reduction when shooting a lot of claybirds, but add a little to the "complication equation" for a novice. I'd go with a reliable pump.<br><br>But... an 8 hour course followed by a re-familiarization once in a while (you pick - quarterly, semi-annual, annual - depends on retention of the trainee) - that is enough for the "bang" part of this. The HARD part is teaching/learning when to shoot and when to not - and how to handle those situations. That is much harder.<br><br>I'm not sure I'd encourage you to have one in the house if the primary "user" doesn't shoot at least a few times a year, and even then... however, it's truly your call. My household exercises its rights, but there is a lot of life-long education and hands on (and on-going dialog - a lengthy and difficult topic).<br><br>I dunno if that helps - if you want to discuss further, let's move to the Campfire forum ,eh?<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

Rob,<br><br>Being a competition trap shooter and a competion handgun shooter, I would say a shotgun is a more viable choice for home/self defense. Sure, it's bigger, and has a significant amount of recoil...but handguns require more training, and wield less "stopping power," than a shotgun. Not to mention the "fright factor" of a shotgun being pointed directly at you! I personally feel that handguns are more dangerous to yourself and those around you than a long gun. Although, with the proper training and experience...the risk can be greatly reduced.<br><br>Regarding the 8 hour course. I would say the the course is plenty of time to be "trained" with the FAMILIARITY of a shotgun. As long as they teach you the proper loading/unloading, safety, shooting, and cleaning procedures, it will be fine. However, you should consider making a trip to your local trap/skeet range every so often to brush up on the shooting. Also, cleaning your shotgun on a regular basis will ensure that it is ready for you when you need it. Be sure to keep it out of children's reach, and to get a cord lock for it. (Mossberg may still be giving these out for free.)<br><br>For a good self defense/home defense shotgun. I would recommend the less expensive, but very good, Remington 870 express OR the Mossberg 500. 12 guage would be best for your needs. Stay away from the .410 and other small guage guns the store clerk may try to offer you. Look for an 18-20" barrel, 5-8 shot capacity, and you may even want to think about adding front and rear pistol grips. Also, as far as shells, I would consider target loads, light loads or reduced recoil loads.<br><br>I hope this helps, if you need more info or have any questions, feel free to e-mail me.<br><br>John McIntire

Robb,<br><br>God help me, but I have to respectfully disagree with the opinions expressed thus far.<br><br>IMHO, a home defense gun should be a handgun. The shotgun has a lot going for it in terms of power and intimidation, but the advantages of the handgun outweigh those IMO. Here are some of them, in no particular order:<br><br>1. Can be used one handed. Useful when another hand is needed to : dial 911, usher kids into "safe room" (more on that later), flip light switches, activate alarms, lock doors, operate a flashlight, etc....<br><br>2. Handguns appropriate for both women AND home defense are easier (and cheaper) to find than shotguns meeting the same criteria. Sorry if that seems sexist.<br><br>3. Handguns are smaller and lighter than shotguns. This is an important consideration when the weapon may be clutched tightly in hands until police arrive. The smaller factor is also important when investigating that noise which may or may not be an intruder, and turns out to be an intoxicated neighbor trying to get into "his" house. Don't laugh, this has happened to me twice --bad neighbor I suppose-- but my handgun was kept behind my back, neighbor was embarrassed, but didn't have to change his shorts. <br><br>4. Handguns are more retention friendly, particularly in certain models. A shotgun sticks way out, giving the person attempting to grab it a long lever. A handgun is more difficult to grab (smaller target), and certain models have features, which when employed, can keep the weapon from being used on it's owner in the event that it does get taken away . <br><br>5. While it is true that shotguns have a shorter learning curve than handguns, the time required to learn to safely use a handgun at across the room distances isn't that great. I was able to teach my wife the basics over a weekend. She was able to hit a torso sized target at ten feet with the whole magazine of her handgun after one weekend.<br><br>Please keep in mind that a handgun (or any gun for that matter) in the home is not an answer in and of itself, it may, in fact, be a liability in some circumstances. Like most of the things that we hope will never happen to us, prevention is the key. Adequate home security measures are a must. Locks, lighting, alarms, etc...should all be taken care of before a handgun is considered. Plans (similar to fire drills) should be made covering individual responsibilities i.e: Dad grabs gun and kids and gets then to saferoom, Mom calls police, etc... This should also allow for people missing i.e: Dad is away, Mom grabs gun and cell phone and runs to kid's room, speed dials police and assumes "mama bear" role).<br><br>The safe room concept has proven itself again and again. This simply a room where the family has decided to hole up and wait for the cavalry (or to make a last stand) This room is usually the master bedroom, but your circumstances may alter that. In my case, it is the children's room, my house layout leaves me no choice. In the event that I am alerted of a home invasion, I grab gun, cell phone and wife and scurry to kid's room. Wife then calls police, and stays on the line with them, keeping them up to date. I announce to everyone in earshot that I am aware of the intruder, have a gun, have called the police, and that any attempt to enter the room with the cartoon characters on the door will result in shots fired. Staying on the line with the police prevents them from getting lost, thinking that the emergency is over, or shooting me by mistake.<br><br><br>Uh-oh, storm moving in...more later.<br><br>Take care,<br>Andy <br>

Robb,<br><br>Just a few more things to consider...<br><br>Chris had an excellent point about being quiet. The guns are there to prevent home intrusion from becoming a worst case scenario, not a "selling point" to thieves. <br><br>Speaking of worst case scenarios, if you have children in the house, for God's sake make sure that either the children are gunproof, or the guns are childproof. My 11 year old is gun-proof, but my guns are child-proofed because of my 3 year old. This presents the problem of ready access to the guns, but there are ways around that.<br><br>Everything you need to know about this subject of home defense can be learned from the writings of one man. His name is Massad Ayoob. He has made a career of helping people help themselves in this arena. Check your library, favorite bookseller or his website (LFI.org IIRC). For the record, I have no financial stake in his business.<br><br>Tom made a good point as well, the decision is yours, ultimately. Chose what works best for you and your situation. I suspect that given your occupation, you may have a sharper need for home defense weapons than the majority of us.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

hmmmm.... *leans back, fingers steepled meditatively*<br><br>Pistols have the strong points that Ade mentioned. However, they are harder to learn how to use, and the skills deteriorate faster than longarm skills do. There is also the issue of registration/liscencing/et al in many locations. Those are less relivent, though.<br><br>Pistols seem to many to kick harder, becuase all their recoil is on the wrist(s). I for defensive handgun, that isn't going to be concealed, it is hard to beat a medium to large frame .38 (or .357 Mag, which can be loaded with .38s) with 3"-5" barrel with good sights- not much recoil, mechanically simple, only two controls to learn, innexpensive and it has decent stopping power with good hollowpoints. Just remember NOT to cock it- if you can, get the spur bobbed off if you think this might be an issue. With a double action revolver, the only time you need to cock it is for accuracy at range, and if urban areas you won't need it. (if you are underfire, take cover and let them come to you, don't try to take them outside of your property line/perimiter and get a reckless endangerment and/or attempted homicide charge out this.) <br><br>The "downside" is that if you can grab the cylinder, a revolver isn't going to go bang, but if they get that close and you haven't fired, you weren't going to in the first place. <br><br>For people who aren't going to be practicing a lot, I say leave autoloaders out of the picture. To many pieces, to many controls. And you get more kick- even a .22 has some jump from the slide moving. They are also more expensive. If you are going to be carrying it concealed, then you might want to get teh extra practice- they are easier to hide.<br><br>Ade mentioned "grabability" of shotguns. It might be easier with a shotgun, but it is another non-issue. If you are carrying it at a high ready or port arms, you are screwed, and there is no two ways about it. But if you are holding it like that, well, lucky you, you deserve that Darwin Award you just got. Hold it to your shoulder, muzzle DOWN in a low ready. Just slide your finger int the gaurd and pull if they try to grab. If the hostile is front of you, it just recieved a load of shot to it's legs/groin/belly and is out of the fight. <br><br>For people who won't be shooting a lot, I'm not fond of pump action shotguns. Spend the extra and get an autoloader- the one handed thing that Ade (sorry dude, nothing personal) was talking about goes out the window if they are so close you can't drop the phone and grasp the forearm. It is also easier to operate under stress (long list of dead or wounded cops who short stroked a pump action, and an infinantly long list of humilated hunters and trap shooters). 12ga or 20ga, I'm rather impartial between them, so long as the two are not mixed in the same house. (20ga is close enough in size to 12ga that you can't feel the difference, or see if it if you don't look close, but it will slide down the barrel. You'll get a failure to fire, rack the bolt, get a 12ga in the chamber, and blow the weapon apart when you pull the trigger.)<br><br> I use #4 buck with slugs strapped to the stock, but my house is pretty big and I have 40+ acres of front yard. For suburbanites with driveways, large birdshot (#2 or bigger, in lead not steel) is better. It will still blow thorugh an interior wall, but it won't get outside of your home. Buckshot is too big, and shot fine enough to not go through drywall is too small to be effective. Just remeber that this IS NOT skeet shooting- you need to AIM not just point in close quarters.<br><br>My personal recommendation is a light, pistol caliber carbine. Dont' get an "assault weapon" (I'll explain why later) like a AR-15 in 9mm or a recreated Tommy gun, but go with something with a conventional style stock. Sythetic is OK, wood is better. I really liked the old Marlin Camp Carbines, and if you can find one used in good shape, it's a great choice. Ruger has a similiar series out now, I'd go with the .40 or .45 caliber version becuase it hits better and is less penetrative of building materials than 9mm. As to why, it's simple. Autoloading makes it easy to use mechanically, while using a longarm is easier than a pistol. Detachable box magazines make securing and rapid loading easier. <br><br>With either long arm, I like to add a light. Don't go with a SWAT-type mount. I like 2-3D cell Maglight and some ducktape. Looks like crap, but it works, and costs less than the batteries of those wonderlights. I also like a red-dot sight, preferably a tube-type model WITHOUT magnification, as they are easier to use up close and in a hurry. <br><br>For shotguns, if you can stretch the tube, that great, but don't worry too much if you can't get an extended mag. Ditto stock-mounted ammo carriers. Unless you [censored] off an entire street gang or mob family, you most likely won't need more than one or two shots anyway. <br><br>Final words:<br><br>IF you ever need to use this, remember range. If the hostile can touch the barrel with a single long step, it is too close. If it can get inside that 10' ring before you ID and challange it, your danger just jumpped a few thousand percent. Put the hostile down at that point, dont' risk loosing control of your weapon. If it turns into a wrestilng match for a loaded weapon, the last thing you will see or hear before you die is your family having their heads blown off, unless you keep control. Which means only your hands on that weapon.<br><br>The other piont is this. If you pull that trigger, you are going into a court room. Not maybe, you ARE! Maybe criminal, but certainly civil court. "Evil" looking guns (whatever the hell that is- just ask any media weenie, they can tell you) with all kinds of nasty looking widgets are a bad thing at that point. Blued steel, wood and a duct-tapped maglight improves your ability to get out of that court room without having to pay your hostile every cent you will ever make becuase it was robbing you to pay for it's addictions. Or worse, it's next of kin sueing you for loss of companionship/support/whatever. The Super-slayomatic 9000 with the double pistol grips, laser sight, illuminator and pre-ban, ultra high-cap mag might look cool on the range, but in the court room, it will get you no friends on the jury of 12 morons, media-trained and truely braindead. (I own a lot "black guns", but they stay secured if something goes bump in the night.)<br><br>And use regular ammo. No reloads from a buddy. And nothing exotic, like thumbtacks (Doc Holliday's load of choice) or flechette. Either of those will make you open to a lawyer trying to get his cut of your future earnings by showing the affore mentioned morons you were some deranged gunfreak psycho killer who set out to purposefully and intentially main or murder his client. Not even handloaded bouncyballs (which make a nasty slightly-less-than-leathal load, btw, for anyone who doesn't follow Uncle Raven's sage advice).<br><br>

i think you should choice the type of gun withs is most suited for your home. if you life in a small apartment a pistol would be a beter choice because its short. a shotgun would be to long in narow apartments, but if you life in a BIG house/villa with lots of big rooms and wide hallways a shotgun would be beter choice because it's more effective both psychological ( for both you and the intruder ) and pysical ( stoping power )and you got enough space to move around with a shotgun.<br>but still prevention is the best choice ! because blowing somebody's brains out, doesnt do any good for you either !

The clack,clack of a pump being charged is indeed a bone chilling sound especially if you don't know where its comming from.<br><br>A mag light taped or otherwise mounted to the barrel is like saying." Here I am. Shoot over here. See the light? that's me!" If you are going to mount a light to the barred have a thumb activated switch that can be activated with your finger on the trigger and thumb on the receiver or ready position.<br><br>A 410 with a 20 inch barrel alternately loaded with slugs and number 3 shot is a very effective defensive weapon.<br><br>The Remington 870 Police Special is the best home defense weapon in the world.<br><br>When the adrenelin is flowing into your system by the gallon a handgun may not be the best defensive weapon. Most home invaders are already on high alert.<br><br>A hard room is best defense. <br><br>Always check a room from as close to the floor as you can get for your first look in. Gradually work your way up the door jamb as required.<br><br>Even a 22 cal pistol pellet gun is better then nothing. 3-4 hits to exposed skin with on of those can hurt. Or as my mom use to say" That thing is going to take out an eye."<br><br>This is just my opinion and I apoligize if I have offended anyone. I agree with a lot of the info in this particularly interesting thread and I disagree with some of it.<br><br>Mariner<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

I teach and recomend the NRA Basic Pistol and/or Personal Protection courses. They run (the way we teach them) about 9 ot 10 hours. We (BAYPROFS.org) have altered the courses slightly such that Basic Pistol is a prerequesit for Personal Protection (the NRA versions are stand alone and overlap somewhat). By doing them as a series, we can go into more depth in the PP course. I would recomend that you and your wife take both coures (even in standard NRA format). If you can only take one, take the NRA Personal Protection course.<br><br>There has been some good advice given in this forum, but you need to take the instruction there really *is* 8 to 10 hours of information that is persented. If you do find yourself in "The Gravest Exterme," being able to point to having taken a nationally sanctioned course shows that you are not just some gun nut.<br><br> larry<br>

What ever your choice of weapon have the presence of mind to remember what is BEHIND your target. Every piece of shot doesn’t hit the target. So if you hammer a hostile enemy standing in front of your children’s bedroom wall with 00 Buck you are endangering those in the next room as well. Many handgun rounds will go through a target and the wall behind it. And you may not hit your target! Choose the lightest round you are comfortable with.<br><br>The bottom line is: Know your target and where it is in relation to others. <br><br>PS. I hope this does not cause hesitation to shoot if needed (I know, sounds contradictory)<br>