Hey all sorry if this is a repost, but I would like to know what ideas you have about a generator for backup power. I am thinking about a 17.5 KW portable Generac. I am going to get a manual transfer switch (can’t afford an automatic one) and then hardwire it to my main panel. Then all I would need to do is throw my service breaker and fire up the generator and viola let there be light and AC... I guess I would need to store around 55 gallons of fuel to run it two weeks or so. What do you think? Is there and inexpensive model running around out there? What is better natural gas, diesel, or unleaded?

I have a 4 KW generator in my motorhome, and it runs on the unleaded gas that runs the motorhome. It uses about a gallon per hour on full load. I assume that a 17.5 KW "portable" is on a trailer?

I have found with experience that it is important to start the generator at least once per month, otherwise it gets gummed up and hard to start.

The manual transfer switches that I have seen are "break before make" switches, so that it is impossible to send power the wrong way (back towards the utility) or have both generator and utility power coming down the same wires at the same time.

A friend recently got a 25 KW generator installed at his business to run critical operations in case of power failure. I got to watch the install. There was much more to it than I imagined. Different legs went to different circuits, and everyone was very concerned with "rotation". The electricians called in some "generator specific" electricians to deal with the "rotation" issue. I am certain that others with more knowledge than I will contribute.

How are you planning on securing your generator if your place is lighted, and no one else is?

The Homestead Generator
Rich “Raspy” Shawver

From time to time the questions come up about the selection of a homestead generator. Should it be gasoline, diesel or what about a multi-fueled option? How much capacity do I need? What Bells and whistles should be added? What about the noise?

Power generators are designed to produce 60 cycle AC. To accomplish this they normally run at 3600 RPM, 1800 RPM or 900 RPM. Obviously the slower the system operates the less stress it is subjected to. Therefore the longer it will be expected to last.

For the prime mover of the system comes in 2 flavors. The standard gasoline and the diesel engines. Multi-fuel systems are modifications of either of these 2 basic engines. Both work on similar principals. Fuel is sprayed into a cylinder with air. The fuel air mixture is then compressed. This mixture is the ignited to produce the power. The difference comes in how ignition is accomplished. The gas engine uses an electrically fired spark plug. The diesel engine, while initially uses a glow plug to get things started, relies upon compression to fire.

In this respect the gasoline engine has the advantage. Aside from running on gasoline they can be modified to run on LP, Propane and Natural Gas commercial fuels. They can also function on homemade fuels of Alcohol, Wood Gas and Methane. The problem with multi-fuel operations is that to operate of different fuels requires major changes for each fuel. To make the engine operate on several fuels in consecutive operations requires compromises. These compromises make the engine less efficient regardless of the fuel used. Additionally the modification piles extra complexity onto the system.

The diesel engine runs on commercial diesel. And function on homemade fuels of almost any vegetable oil with little or no modification. Yes, that means if you run out of fuel in a diesel powered vehicle you can walk into a grocery store, buy a couple of gallons of expensive cooking oil, pour it in the tank re-fire and drive away. The major problem with these fuels is they are temperature sensitive. The colder it get the thicker the fuel becomes. Often below freezing it becomes too thick to flow. This requires either a system to keep the fuel warm in cold weather. Or to store the fuel where it is not subjected to lowered temperatures.

One area where the 2 types diverge is in reliability and longevity. The most common gas powered generators are the small [5000 watt range] portable generators. While nicely portable they are only designed for intermittent use. They operate at 3600 RPM too fast, too annoyingly loud and way too short-lived. Even the larger models still tend to be of the higher RPM variety. Most diesel generators are designed to operate at 1800 RPM and a few can be found that run at 900 RPM. Diesels have better torque [power at slow speed] characteristics at lower RPMs than gas engines. Consider engine life in vehicles. Typically gas engines last an average of about 100,000 miles. Sure there are those that last to over 200,000 but have needed major overhauls to reach that. Conversely diesels need little more than minor maintenance at 100,000 and usually last much, much longer. Ask any long haul trucker how many 100,000’s trucks average. Diesels not having the need of an ignition [sparking system] have fewer parts to go wrong.

First conclusion is that diesel driven generators are a more viable option for a long term homestead power system.

Sizing the system

To do this you really need to determine 3 separate figures.
1) Minimum needs
2) Average needs
3) Peak or Maximum needs.

Adding up the power requirements of the equipment in each category does this. Generators are rated in watts or rather 1000 of watts or Kilowatts. To find these values you need to read the appliance’s nameplate. Some list the amount in watts, which makes it easy. Others list the amount in Amps. To convert Amps to watts you multiply amps times the voltage to get watts. Most common electrical equipment runs on 120 volts although some use 240 volts. Example: 5 amps at 120 volts equal 600 watts.

Minimum need items are things like refrigeration, heating or cooling, ventilation and communications. This amount can be reduced from the combined amount by running this equipment sequentially. Average is self-explanatory. Peak is the largest single load or combination of loads that can be expected to be run at any one time. Although you might want to add a fudge factor to be safe. It is better to have a little extra than not enough.

For efficient operation a generator should be loaded between 70 to 90 percent. Less the system is not as stable or being used effectively. The upper 10 % are to allow for the surge when a load is started. Also generators last longer and run better if used for a period of time rather than in a series of short runs. The most wear and tear is during the start up.

The generator is selected to meet the desired usage. Usually minimum for emergency conditions or the average requirements of the homestead. This can sometimes be accomplished better by having 2 generators. Either one to meet minimum to average usage needs or combined to full fill any greater demands for longer-term use. Additionally each can be used as a backup to the other during maintenance or repair. Also as a source of spare parts if both are the same.

What bells and whistles are available?

Auto-start. This automatically starts the generator upon a power failure.

Transfer switch. This is a switch that shifts from commercial power lines to the generator and back. This is a safety feature to keep the generator from feeding the commercial grid. This feedback could cause an injury or worse to linemen repairing the cause of the initial failure. These come in manual or automatic. The automatic type switch the power after the generator comes up to speed.

Remote start. This is a nice feature for periodic running and testing or in place of an auto-start or in the case auto-start fails. It saves a trip to where the generator is located.

Remote monitoring stations. Several stations can be set up for convenience of knowing the status of the generator. These gauges would entail information such as if it were running, speed, various critical temperatures, oil pressure and even fuel tank level. These stations can even be fitted with alarms if parameters get out of operational ranges.

Paralleling meter. When more than one generator is used at the same time to supply the same distribution system this is mandatory equipment. In AC electricity the voltage rises to a peak positive voltage and dips to an equal negative voltage in a series of smooth curves. [Alternating current] When hooking 2 or more generators together the switch has to be closed as close to possible when these rising and fallings match. The purposes of the meter is to measure the difference between the 2 machines it shows when they are in sync and when the switch can be closed safely.

Battery bank. To greatly improve the systems efficiency a battery bank is a welcome addition. When the generator is running at lower than capacity it can be used to charge the bank. Which in turn can supply power when the generator is not on line. It can also store energy from alternate sources such as wind, water or solar systems. The battery can also have remote monitoring and controls incorporated with the generator stations. Depending on how it is wired the bank can operate at almost any desired DC voltage. The output of the battery bank can be dealt in 3 different ways.

The first method is straight DC. This requires a separate DC wiring system. A DC system works especially well for lighting. Many DC appliances can be acquired at recreational vehicle centers. Here is an interesting product. It is a variable output LED lighting Module.
http://www.techass.com/el/versalux/ulm/ulm.php?techass=3fe0092186fa2f45faefa96b753e0bbe

The second method is to use one large or a combination of several smaller inverters. Inverters are electronic modules that convert DC into AC.

The final option is the ultimate inverter. This is a motor generator setup. A DC motor drives a small AC generator. The advantage these have over the electronic inverters is longevity. These will last an extremely long time because of their simplicity. One interesting feature of this kind of set up is that it can operate in both directions. If the control circuits are adjusted the AC generator will act as a motor and a DC motor act as a DC generator. This can then be used to charge the batteries from the main generators.

Noise abatement and a few other issues.

If you run a generator in the basement or an attached garage it would not be long until it would drive you crazy. Not to say announcing its presents to the world for miles around. What is required is a separate power house. This structure does not have to be close to a dwelling but it need not be far away either. The trick is to insulate it to contain the noise. The easiest way to this is to think of a root cellar like structure with a well-insulated door. Being situated below ground it uses the earth as a sonic as well as a temperature insulator. Since this also moderates temperature fuels such as diesel are not as effected if stored there. Also the negative effect of cold on the batteries will be minimized. If heating is required it will be minimal in nature.

Final Recommendations. The best engine I would suggest is a diesel. From what I previously stated you might think I would say 2 generators. Actually I would want 3. 2 mid sized units to supply the main power. Each capable of supplying the average power needs. Each as a backup for the other or combined to meet higher levels of need. The third would be a small portable gas generator. This is to take a power source to remote locations. A battery bank to increase efficiency. A separate DC grid and a motor generator setup to supply AC from the battery and to charge the battery.

You can tell that article is a little outdated when they say a gasoline engine needs major overhaul to go 200kmiles. Most now are rated for 300k between overhauls and Diesels are something like 1million.

there are cheap ones out there, you can find some at camping stores or home stores for use at jobsites, next step up people buy those Honda ones and then getting even more $ are the big ones you bolt down and you start to get into Diesel. Even though a deisel one may be better than a gas one you should think about standardization of fuel, if you have a gas car and never plan on getting a diesel then you may be better off with a gas one so you can rotate the fuel and burn the older in your car.
You want to first decide on what you need/want to power, trying to do the whole house require a large generator.

Just a question: Do you "need" 17.5 kW? This sounds pretty high for short term (one week?) use.
Seperate the need from the nice-to-have.

"There is nothing so frightening as ignorance in action."

You can look here: Electric Generators Direct.com

JimJr

Get a generator that runs on propane. Gasoline is difficult to store long term because it is a mixture of volatile liquids. Propane cannot go “bad”. I have a gasoline model & I wish I had gotten a propane one. Some questions come up. Should I use all the fuel in the lawnmower & replace it regularly? Do I store my gasoline supply over the winter? Is it going to be good in the spring? Rotating gasoline cans into the truck gas tank is going to be a pain in the #%$%#. Then, you have to go to the store & fill them up. With propane, you just get your tank(s) filled & forget about it. There is no mess with refilling the gas tank (cleverly located above the hot engine). No messing around with possible spills in the back of the truck. I use a pair of portable boat gas tanks on mine. I can be refilling one while the generator is running on the other. Then, I just detach the quick disconnect & switch in the new full one. There are no fittings on the bottom of the tank, so no worries about a leak dripping gas on the engine & starting a fire. It is still a hassle. How to drain the fuel from the tank to replace it with fresh? What to do with the old fuel? Has it got varnish in it & thus bad to run in the lawnmower? What about fuel stabilizers? Propane avoids all these issues! Search this forum for more info. This topic has come up before.

If you run a generator in the basement or an attached garage, Iyou should worry more about carbon monoxide than noise.

Sorry for going off line for so long my wife and I just had a baby boy. So my wife has had me running in circles. Anyway thanks for the responses. They are were insightful. I think that you all have changed my mind to get a diesel. I have a diesel truck so rotating fuel wont be a problem I will just have to keep filling the cans up after someone steal it because the price of fuel is too high LOL ( no I guess that is not funny). I think that I will look in to wood fuel or biodiesel for both my truck and generator.... I still think I "need" a larger wattage generator so I will at some of the sites you have suggested. one other question I would assume that the rotation problem is getting the sin waves to match up and I think that the parallel panel will fix that but the question is if I have 2 5000 watt diesels is does that make 10000 watts or do I loose some energy in the switching?

Phase rotation only comes into play with 3-phase systems (usually commercial/industrial) where each phase is 120 deg. from any other phase. Rotation is only a concern with 3-phase motors, inverters, and the like. The average home has 2 "hot" wires that are in-phase with each other. In this way, you get either 120V or 240V for larger loads.

Two generators get you double the wattage only by splitting up your loads across the 2 generators (and you'd need 2 transfer switches to do this). If one were to try running the output from each generator to one "hot" terminal in your load center, you'd have no idea what the phasing (and hence the voltage) was as the 2 generators would not be in sync.

Unless you've got electric heating, hot water, and maybe a well pump, I find it hard to believe you need that much power. And if you do have electric heat, water, etc. you might want to evaluate the cost of replacing or "upgrading" these components (especially if they're older and less efficient) because a 17KW generator is going to set you back big bucks and is only an expense, while more efficient appliances may save you money daily and possibly add to the resale value of your home (whether or not it cost effective is up to you and your circumstances). If you know an electrical contractor or a good electrician, I'd have him take a look at what you're trying to do.

I added up the power requirements for running my home in a minimal "emergency" mode (furnace fan, flourescent lighting refrigerator, freezer) and it was under 5kW even when allowing for motor starting requirements, but I've got natural gas heating and hot water.

There are conversion kits out there, some dual and triple fuel. Haven't tried it, so I can't vouch for them. Just search for "generator propane conversion". Expect to spend around $200 - $300.

I have had a generator backup system in place and in use for almost twenty years. Your needs and your opinions may be different than mine, but I want to throw out a few things for you to consider.

1. Capacity. 17.5kW, or even 10kW, is a lot of juice, and it will need a lot of fuel. What do you really need for an emergency? We did the list then gave it some critical scrutiny. The only things we felt we had to keep powered were the boiler (oil-fired, responsible for heat and domestic hot water) and the refrig/freezers. We added a couple of domestic light circuits and a microwave. Result: we can make do with judicious use of a 3.4kW generator. Advantages: much less fuel usage, much less noise and much less expense. We don't rely on any 220v motors, so this works for us - if we needed to power a well pump, it'd have to be bigger.

2. Fuel and storage. Whatever you decide about size, think about fuel storage. IMO propane is the safest to store, but a big above-ground tank is an eyesore (BTDT). Gasoline, in any useful quantity, is a headache from lots of perspectives: fire safety (including local fire code and insurance issues), fuel rotation (even stabilized fuel doesn't last forever), etc.

3. Operation/maintenance. Unless you buy a commercial unit (and maybe even if you do), you need to make sure you are prepared to deal with maintenance and repair issues. Do you have enough of the right oil? Most small gas engines will use more oil than you'd guess in continuous operation, and you also need to be able to change the oil. Do you have spare spark plugs? Do you have spares for frequently-needed parts, and the ability to identify and replace those parts? Particularly if you buy a generator powered by a small gasoline engine, be aware that even the "commercial" quality units are not made for continuous operation in *critical* applications, and to the extent that you go down the chain in terms of quality that becomes even more true. All kinds of things break or need replacement...spark plugs, fuel filters, recoil starters, diodes in the generator, even the breakers in the transfer switch can go south just when you need them most and can't get replacements.

4. Other electrical issues. Make sure you factor in the current drawn by motors when they start,not just when running...but remember that some of them are (and all could be) in your control, so you can time when they hit the generator. Another issue: not all generators provide safe power for solid-state appliances, including microwaves, computers, etc.

Food for thought.

Two other things to think about:

1) Diesel fuel is essentially identical to #2 heating oil. You can add a tank simply to feed a diesel generator and not pay diesel fuel road taxes for a stationary application. Even better if your house uses oil heat.

2) Co-generation. This is using the waste heat from the radiator of the generator to heat the house. This makes more sense when building the house then when adding on a generator.

All good things to consider one more reason for the “want” of a large generator, is for my well. The pump is a 3 phase 5 horse. It has its own transformer to change from 220 2 phase to 3 phase so I don’t have worry about that but it is 40 amps or 8800 watts plus 5000 or so for regular load i.e. fridge, furnace, ect so I need 14000 watts or so but if I am going that big I might as well get one the will drive the 5 ton ac.

Yike. I know zilch about well pumps, is this typical?

Anyway, all I can say is that whatever you can do to reduce your energy needs will reduce both your daily operating costs and also the (size) cost of a generator to back it up. And, as has already been pointed out, keep in mind the amount of fuel you're going to have to have on hand to run the thing for whatever amount of time. I agree that propane would be the way to go (unless you've got some sort of large storage container for gasoline already, like an in-ground tank, that you're fueling your vehicles from). Good luck.

I guess it depends on what your philosophy of dealing with an emergency is. I read something in another forum yesterday about making sure the home theater system was working after a hurricane - that's a personal choice, but it wouldn't be what I'd try to do. In the next paragraph, the person wrote about how they had cars stopping out front of the house and had people coming inside looking for things because their house was brightly lit while the rest of the neighborhood was dark. I'm not sure I want to attract that kind of attention.

I think that you need a consultation with an electrical engineering firm.

Generac makes a very good generator. I know there are people that disagree with me but I prefer Diesel over nat gas or gasoline. Diesel has more energy per gallon than nat gas/propane and lasts longer in storage than gasoline. 17 KW is a lot of power, 10 KW is cheaper, goes farther on available fuel, and if you manage your enegy use will give you more power than you need.

17.5KW is way too much for any type of home emergency preparedness (if you can get unlimited fuel, it's not an emergency). Don't plan on running a whole-house AC system in a long-term power outage. If you absolutely must have AC, put a high efficiency window unit in one room and have everyone stay in that room during the hot parts of the day (it's not so bad). 1KW is enough for that. 17.5KW is for running a hospital or something like that.

I like the idea of propane because of storage stability and because gasoline may be very scarce and hard to hold onto. A 400lb propane cylinder is less likely to walk away.

Actually, what he is likely to need is a consultation with the state public utilities commission. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What you have are two 5 k generators. Unless they are synchonous generators or you are making DC with sycronous inverters. 5 k will go a long way to power your aveage home providing you use the power wisely, i.e. alternating useage, freezer for three hours every six hours fridge on off hours, no 25,000 btu A/C units etc. having two units his good though. It allows you to alternate between units and keep them in good running condition.

I think I may just need a consultation. No, everything that has been said has been helpful, and you’re right I am thinking I can get away with a 10kw diesel. Now I just need to know where to find one cheep.

I don't want to be a pain (honestly), but however long you can run 10kW on X gallons of fuel, you can run a 5kW ~twice as long. Less (fuel consumption) under emergency circumstances is always going to be better.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Lister-style generators. A very old, reliable design. See the Cool Tools write-up for additional information. There are one and multi-cylinder versions that produce from 5kW and 20kW, with your choice of single and three phase generation; most turn around 800 RPM and cost less than $2,000. Some even offer electrical welder options! All are quiet and fuel efficient, and most are multi-fuel (wvo).

The largest drawback is that they aren't portalbe and they're quite heavy--larger models are over 2,000 pounds.