Boy, a ton of opinions and ideas, most of them really good. <br><br>But the one thing that you must do before you purchase any weapon for self defense or take any classes, is decide if you and your wife (and any family members who expect to use the weapon for self defense) will actually be able to use the thing if the time comes. Most call it mind set. If you are not absolutely sure that you will be able to take a life (never try to shoot to wound, shoot to stop, which will very likely produce death), you have no business having the weapon. If you can't use it, the bad guy will take it away from you and may use it on you and your loved ones. You must have already made that decision in your mind, and pull the trigger instantly, you won't have time to think about it. And never bluff, if you have time to say "stop or I'll shoot," shoot if the BD doesn't stop.

Raven,<br><br>Many good points, some that we will have to agree to disagree about, but many good points. You pays your money and you takes your choice.<br><br>Andy

>> have the presence of mind to remember what is BEHIND your target<<<br><br>When I lived in more exciting places than now, this is why the only piece I kept loaded was a shotgun- short-barreled Remington 870 pump with rifle sights.<br><br>The first three rounds were #6 birdshot. Number 6 won't penetrate drywall at distances of more than a few feet, but is purported to still be a pretty reliable stopper across a typical room. There's little concern about patterning at 8 feet.

Robb,<br><br>Many good points have already been made & I will not revisit them. Other considerations include the following:<br><br>Competent handling & use of a shotgun can be learned faster than for a handgun. It is easier to control & point. Accordingly, it is easier to hit with a shotgun. The shotgun can easily have much more stopping power than any handgun. Just look at the relative sizes of the ammunition. The shotgun shell can also dump all of its energy in the target more readily & with more certainty than the handgun cartridge. The pellets from the shotgun shell are much more likely to spend their energy & remain in the target than a single bullet from an adequately powerful handgun.<br><br>On the other hand, any shotgun is much longer & more unwieldy within the confines of a house than a handgun. In tight quarters the awkwardness can be prohibitive. Although any gun can be grabbed by an attacker, the much larger shotgun simply has more that can be grabbed. It is especially susceptible to being grabbed from a side assault: just compare an 18" barrel to a 4" barrel; compare the sizes of the actions & stocks. In close quarters, it will be hard & acquired to point. From a likely positions of safety where your wife might be in an emergency, does she have room to swing freely a shotgun over the entire arc of danger? Use a 4' dowel or augmented yardstick for simulation. <br><br>How will you secure the guns? The handgun can be carried on the person routinely. At other times, it can repose safely in any of the many handgun lock boxes which are designed for quick access. Are adequate security devices for long guns available & appropriate for home use. You will want some variation of a combination lock based. In an emergency, keys may not be readily available. Most of the locking systems for long guns of which I am aware are slower to access. If you have an unsecured gun, will your children, their friends, & amazingly stupid adults be able to access it? One will inevitably find it. I do believe that I have adequately gun-proofed my own children. However, my experience has been that their friends are infinitely inquisitive, ignorant of proper handling of guns, & eventually likely to happen onto things I truly thought well hidden. Adult guests should be regarded as larger, more capable children whose potential mischief is boundless & unpredictable. <br><br>It would be helpful if your wife tried shooting handguns & shotguns to explore her capabilities & interests. Conceivably rental shotguns may be available with expert instruction at a trap & skeet club. Certainly rental handguns are available on such basis. That will provide an opportunity to see how heavy & large a shotgun she can handle properly. You can also gauge her reaction to recoil. <br><br>Against what threat are you seeking to protect? Do the prospects tend more towards a single opportunistic burglar or multiple assassins? The greater the threat, the greater the need for overwhelming firepower. In my own home, the main concern is for a dangerous burglar. My wife is comfortable with revolvers, but not semiautomatic pistols. I'm adaptable. Therefore, most of the time we have a revolver accessible. During our local riot season, & during my occasional acrimonious lawsuits (civil lawyer), defenses are strengthened. Defensive long guns <br>& other handguns are made readily accessible. My wife uses a 20 ga. Rem.1100 gas operated semiautomatic shotgun for bird hunting & skeet shooting. So it is an appropriate choice for her. I have extensive experience in hunting & target shooting with both pump & semiautomatic shotguns. For most of such of uses, I now prefer semiautomatics. OTH, during critical & highly demanding situations, I always switch to a pump. For defensive purposes I have a 12 ga. Rem. 870 pump. The Mossberg 500 pump shotgun is also an excellent choice. <br><br>Recoil is a factor in shooting proficiency & comfort. It is all the more important for a beginner. In general, recoil can be reduced by increasing the weight of the gun, or reducing the power of the ammunition-- i.e., decreasing velocity, or decreasing the total weight of the projectile (ejecta), including bullet/shot, gunpowder, and any wadding. It is usually better for a shooter to begin with a smaller guage shotgun. Here the most practical choices are 12 & 20 gauges. In shotguns, the smaller the number of the gauge, the larger the bore. The 12 ga. has the greatest variety of ammunition available, but will kick noticeably harder in guns of the same weight. In the short range, limited defensive environment of a house, a 20 ga. should be adequate. Pump actions are more reliable & less complicated than semiautomatics. Training (as in skeet shooting which entails rapid pairs of shots) should overcome any tendency not to operate the action fully. <br><br>A new shooter of a shotgun, especially if petite, will probably be happier with the smaller gauge. It tends to come in shotguns about 1-2 pounds lighter than 12 gauge. If recoil is a significant in a lighter shotgun, a gunsmith can add about 1 pound or so to the weight. The additional weight will mitigate the recoil.<br><br> In general, the larger the size of the shot pellets, the greater the penetration. Slugs, buckshot, & large bird shot are much more likely to penetrate walls. The pattern of shot will tend to disperse at the rate of approximately 1" per yard in a full choke shotgun barrel; and at ~ 2" per yard in a cylinder bore (no choke at all). Intermediate chokes perform within those ranges. Consider the ranges involved, & choose your choke. At very close range, the substantially undispersed shot load will tend to operate as if it were a single large jagged projectile in terms of the damage done within the target. Thus, for example, very small shot such as #9 will be deadly at 1 yard, but dispersed & not very injurious at, say, about 60 yards. The power (velocity & energy) of the spherical shot pellet decreases rapidly as the range increases. The size of bird shot also increases as its numerical designation decreases. Carefully consider the nature (e.g., body armor/heavy clothing/light clothing) of the potential target & the likely range as well as the choke in choosing ammunition.<br><br>If a handgun chosen, be sure she can comfortably & properly hold it. Some larger semiautomatic pistols require large hands for proper use. Smaller semiautomatic pistols & those with single column magazines tend to have smaller grips. Smaller & medium frame revolvers have or can be fitted with smaller stocks. These may be more appropriate for someone whose hand is smaller than a medium to large male hand. Choose a popular caliber such as .38 Special, .357 Magnum (which also can shoot .38 Spec. ammo), 9 mm Luger, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. They are popular for a reason. They have a large variety of ammunition available. The ammo is available in loads appropriate for defense. For whatever caliber you choose, you will probably find that the better defensive ammunition will tend to come with light to medium weight bullet (relative to the caliber), and jacketed hollow pointed bullets of high velocity (relative to the caliber). The .38 Spec., however, is probably best loaded with medium to full weight hollow pointed lead semiwadcutters rated +P. The .45 ACP may also be best loaded with medium to full weight bullets. <br><br>Feel free to follow up with any questions you wish via PM or the Forum.<br><br>Good luck,<br><br>John

I have a Mossberg 500 w/ a 20" bbl and 7 shot mag. extension and a Choate top fold stock. The only weapon that I keep loaded anymore. Keep 3 rounds #8 bird in the tube and another 12 rounds assorted in a USGI shot shell carrier. This is the same set-up that our local police dept. swat team used to use.<br>#8 at a close range (living room distance) will still punch a<br> nice hole in something(somebody) and not penetrate walls. Also speciality rounds are available at gun shows or catalogs(sandbag,rubber,Flechett[my favorite], etc,etc).WARNING THEY ARE EXPENSIVE THOUGH, not something you take to the range and pop-off for fun.<br>I put this set-up together for ease of use inside rather than a hunting shotgun or handgun (its 31" long end to end folded). The top fold stock is a compromise(I'm a southpaw and my wife is backwards) rather than a side-fold.A matter of taking out one bolt and slipping the regular stock back on and reinstalling the bolt and 2 screws through the butt plate and its back to factory condition.

A few repeats, but I think worth re-mentioning:<br><br>First of all, most advice that you will hear will be from people who have never shot another human being. <br><br>Evaluate and minimize all of your risks. Is your house well-lit, doors locked, dog, alarm, neighbors... (note that claymors are still illegal). Here, you are trying to prevent the option of last resort: lethal force.<br><br>1) Ask your spouse if she had to, would she take a person's life. If the answer is no, consider martial arts, non-lethal delivery systems... It doesn't matter what you think. A firearm in the hands of the un-motivated is far more dangerous to your family than the 'possibiliy' of an intrusion. <br><br>2) Send her to a pistol course AND a shotgun course. Try a variety of each type. Note that some of the biggest turnoffs to shooting are the noise and the weight of the firearm. Then, try out some practical or combat shooting courses. One or two nights of this kind of fun is relatively inexpensive.<br><br>3) If she is still willing, purchase your weapon and then practice and practice. As we have all heard, 'a well placed .22 is better'. If I could impress one thing in people's minds, it would be that 8 hrs of firearms training is nothing. As those of you who have experience on practical shooting courses know, a little pressure sure can play with a person's mind. <br><br>Yes, it is better to judged by 12 than carried by 6, but the judging part can be a pretty nasty process if you didn't put some thought into your overall safety and protection plan.<br>

Weasel,<br><br>I like flechette rounds myself; if I were trying to kill someone with a shotgun they would be my first choice. They are NOT, however, appropriate for home defense. Excessive penetration is the primary initial concern. Preventing the appearance of being a paranoid pyscho in court during the aftermath of a defensive shooting following very closely behind as a concern.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

Ade, if people didn't disagree, then there would be no need for this conversation, no? :)<br><br>This unrealeted to Ade's post, but I want to economize my postings:<br><br>People have mentioned Less-Than-Leathal rounds, like rubber slugs. LTL is great, so long as you have some leathal to back it up. It's used in law enforcement with a partner, or at least a sidearm, loaded with something terminal right behind it. <br><br>Also, most rubber ammo is designed for riot control, not room clearing, and is ment to be bounced of the pavement into the legs and abdomen at ranges of greater than 12 feet. At home defense ranges, directly fired, the only LTL rounds I know of that will still be LTL are bean bags and pepper/stinkballs (paintballs loaded with pepperspray or synthetic skunk oil). <br><br>A bouncy ball, fired directly, at 10 feet, will about equal a musket ball at the same range when it runs into soft tissue.

Thank you all very much for the great thoughts and ideas!<br><br>With great respect to Andy(and I mean that), we have decided on shotguns for the reasons expressed by people here and a few of our own. An important (but not controlling) reason is that the tactical team for one of my local departments is upgrading and is making a very good deal on two 870's. (I am going to join in). We are doing the 8 hour basic, then the tactical team is going to let us participate in their next "stop and shoot" course late this month. <br><br>There were so many great points made here that our decision was actually more difficult but MUCH more informed. Also gave me enough information to ask the tac guys less stupid questions. <br><br>Now that we made the decision, I am really anxious to learn about the different loads (it seems like there are a million of them) and what loads are best for what purposes. Tom talked about that a little--and I would like to learn a lot more. Any more information on that? <br><br>It turned out to be a wonderful idea to sit down and talk about whether you are actually going to be able to use the weapon to "STOP" (read "kill") if it comes to that. That led to a great and lengthy conversation that ended up covering a whole bunch of topics. You learn a lot about someone when you have that conversation(and remember, we have been together for years). I don't think there can be true certainty with that one either. As certain as one might feel, I would submit that only those of you who have been there and done that know for sure. <br><br>Raven is right -- if you fire a weapon in defense, you will be be subject to official legal scrutiny and if you hit someone, the complications increase astronomically. However, in my jurisdiction (and I bet most others), you will be treated fairly by law enforcement. As a prosecutor, I review those cases, and I have never been in a position where I had to file charges against someone defending home and family. I have, however, prosecuted reckless hunters, usually intoxicated, who injured innocent people. Any incident where a police officer fires their weapon in the line of duty must be reviewed by our office. If no injury results, it usually takes less than an hour to certify the incident as a clean shoot. If injury or death results, a much more formal investigation ensues but almost always is properly cleared.<br><br>Thanks again to you all for the great information and help.<br><br>Warmest,<br><br>Robb<br><br><br>

Robb,<br><br>It was never my intention to portray the shotgun as a poor choice. I still feel, however, that in most circumstances, a handgun is a better choice. If my circumstances were different, I would have both. Having said that.....<br><br>The primary consideration when chosing home defense loads in a shotgun is penetration. Factors to consider are: wall construction (will my chosen load penetrate it?), and what is beyond "shooting lanes" (if it will pentrate, what could it then hit----exterior masonry wall--no problem, kid's bedroom/neighbor's house--BAD problem). Larger shot sizes (buckshot) penetrates more than smaller (birdshot).<br><br>Also, recoil; without intending to sound sexist, this will likely be more a problem for your wife, than for you. Some loads recoil more than others. #7 1/2 birdshot doesn't recoil very hard, #00 does. Reduced recoil loads are available in some of the larger shot sizes. <br><br>As far as effectiveness, buckshot is a better stopper. However, at close range it won't make too much difference; the shot from either will be very close to being one solid mass at "in house" ranges. You will have to aim. The "point it in the general direction, and you'll getim with something" is a myth.<br><br>Slugs, and, particularly exotics (flechettes, dragon's breath, door knockers, CS, etc....) have no place in home defense shotguns, IMHO. Slugs are penetration liability, and the exotics are are a legal nightmare.<br><br>My reccomendation: # 4 birdshot. This is a compromise load. More oomph than a lighter birdshot, less penetration that buckshot, and easily managable recoil. It is what I would use.<br><br>Take care, have fun, and stay safe.<br><br>Andy