For anyone who lives in Florida, and even for those who don't, a good book is "Florida's First People" by Robin Brown. It's written by a group at the University of FL who went out and researched how the indians here lived THEN WENT and tried doing each thing themselves to see how it worked. It's chock full of nitty gritty and comment on primitive, nomadic living off the land. Public libraries have it, as well as the large book stores.

Experimental archaeology ( replicating technology and discovering "how they did it") is one of the most interesting and plain fun aspects of the discipline. I love watching people "struggle" in a "hostile" environment where native peoples have thrived for eons. The latest P.C. term "first peoples" was created at an archaeological dig I was crewing. We only had one Andy Gump ( portapotty for our overseas members) I raced to it as our Chumash monitor did likewise. "Iwas first! No, I was. No, way! I was definitely here first. Hey! my people were here first!" As we argued a lovely girl from Sweden stepped in :O( We went into the bushes. " Hey Chris, are these bushes toxic? Why? er what are you doing with it? I thought you guys were intimite with the land, being the FIRST PEOPLE AND ALL" lol Small packets of TP are a usefull item in daily carry!

Way kool, Chris, you were fortunate to be a part of that. BTW I think maybe I will chuck all my survival gear and just fill my backpack with T-paper. People often dont think of that until they are in the situation. That's another research topic for me. Clumps of fine dry grass are best, in my opinion, but grass is often scarce in woodlands. If i were stranded I would probably spend a lot of time getting up a big collection of dry grass! Any tips about this delicate topic?

There is a book devoted to it HOW TO TAKE A S*** IN THE WOODS, available through most bookdeealers and camping stores.

Chris, I thought you were kidding about that book....there are actually TWO of them up for auction on eBay at this very moment (Friday night, 21 June, 2250 EDT) !

Foxglove leaves, soft and delicately ribbed, don't know if you get them across the Atlantic.<br><br>having just spent a week on a bushcraft course in the woods the advice on latrines is not to leave TP in the latrines since it takes a long time to biodegrade. Instead take two sheets (he he ok take as many as you need) once you've used it wrap it in another sheet and then burn it in the camp fire. Squatting over a latrine seems to result in less need for TP.<br><br>Justin<br><br>for those interested the course was run by Woodsmoke at www.woodsmoke.uk.com. If I get the time I'll write a review but I would highly recommmend it. It's run by Ben McNutt and Lisa Fenton. Ben illustrated Ray Mears latest book and is the only UK instructor approved by Ray Mears. Great course.

"Two sheets," huh? And when all done, "wrap it in another sheet." WOW! Finally culminating in burning it in the campfire. That must make your campfires a whole 'nother experience. I think over here, we usually try to get a little different kind of experience out of our campfires. Anyway, I hope youall get the kind of camping & roughing it you want.<br><br>Incidentally, my wife's best recollection is that Foxglove is a source of digitalis. If so, you may want to use another kind of leaf. On the other hand, maybe that's part of the overall experience, and we've been missing it. Anyway, you might want to consider that aspect.<br><br>By the way, as a scouter, I've noticed that at some scout camping trips, in the absence of parents, the boys often seem to get prodigious mileage out of one set of undershorts. That is one of the few areas where I actually discourage conservative practices. <br><br>Otherwise, to each his own.<br><br>John

I was always fascinated by the shock Hermione Gingold displayed at Rabelais being in the public library ( THE MUSIC MAN) In high school I checked out Gargantua by said author, a satire of the search for TP substitutes. Sadly, I was probably the only student to ever open that volume before my laughter alerted the PTA. Seriously, hygiene is a adjunct to good health ( including mental clarity) when ROUGHING IT. Doug lists a few items in the bigger kits. My pocket first aid kit is evolving into a preventative maintenance kit; chapstick,hotel sized soap bar, cut down toothbrush, moleskin, bandaids and OTC meds and sting ointments.

The two sheets was a joke! The need to think about the disposal of the paper environmentally wasn't, particularly if you're in a fixed camp with several people using a latrine for several days. Of course if you're using a gas stove then this practice isn't for you. It doesn't smell in a camp fire.<br><br>As for foxglove and digitalis, I can't find any information in my plant books that suggest that the digitalis could be absorbed by skin contact, just ingestion, so I think it's safe for the kind of brief contact we're talking about. If you're caught short without TP it sure beats nettles! ( I assume).<br><br>Justin

FWIW... when traveling, I always burned the TP "in-situ", conditions permitting, just before re-covering the minor excavation. That's easy. In basecamps, I have seen others return to the campfire with the TP as you described. As you note, of course there is no odor.<br><br>Determining what indigenous alternatives are suitable is no small matter. Provided that water is available, most of us Westerners overlook simple washing with water... proper hygene would include handwashing immediately afterwards, of course. A reserved scrap cloth to pat dry with is advisable. In a pinch, observing the "this hand performs those functions and that hand does all the eating" would get one by, but it requires attention.

Justin, Tom,<br><br>If it really works, then it really works.<br><br>I take my cheap toilet humor and accept banishment to the outhouse.<br><br>John

OK<br>Maybe I was being a bit po-faced, you should have told me to bog off!<br><br>Justin<br>I bet none of that translates across the Atlantic!

Well, I understand the spirit in which you're saying it anyway.<br><br>Incidentally, the more I've thought about your original point, the more I can see the usefullness of it.<br><br>And don't tell anybody, but I've escaped from the outhouse.<br><br>John