Snares? Bows? So you are talking about living off the land in an apocolyptic scenario? Great drauma and romance in it, absolutely, the stuff movie and novels are made of.

Nothing personal, but don't try living off the land during a bug out OR in the longterm. Your BOB should get you to someplace where you are expected and is prepared for you. BOBs are for mobility, and that means you aren't hunting anything bigger than bunnies that mistakenly come across your path. You can't do snares unless you've got a fixed location, and effective hunting means knowing where the game is going to be so you can ambush it, which is not a short term situation. You have to stay on the move until you get to were you are going. Either that, or get you just outside of the effects of a localized even and shelter there. That is where the relief supplies will go, and if you need to start over, that is were the people with jobs and places to live are going to be.

If you want a redoubt, a retreat, that's great- build one, spend time there, get to know the locals, pay taxes. If you're a known face, you'll last longer. And make sure you leave the city before the grand evac order is given so you can avoid the rush/traffic jam. Make sure you have enough gas in your rig to get there without hitting a gas station, and you have everything you need either already there or in your one vehicle. But you can't build a retreat into a pack.

Heading for the hills is about the silliest thing you can do, becuase those of who live in the hills (a) aren't much better prepaired for a loss of logistics than city folk are, and (b) can't stretch that any further. That is becuase we don't have any mythical stockpiles- sure we've got game, but we've also got a decent population density and a lot of subdevelopment sprawl which has trashed the water table and torn up too much natural habitat. The game will be gone in under two months, along with the livestock, housepets, and the one seeing eye dog in my town. But for groceries, medicine, fuel, we get it the same way everyone else does- every other day or every two days in big trucks.

The stockpiles are in suburbia. If you're going to locust, which is what living off the land turns into when you have hundreds of thousands of people trying it, hit them. Your belly really will be full longer, you dont' have to walk as far, and you're a lot less likely to get shot for stealing someone's fire wood. (And I'm not kidding- wood is life if you have real winters and no other heat source.)

I hate to sound mean, but that is the simple and honest truth. If you want to see models of this, look through the third world- when the city folk head for the forest becuase the war has come, they hurt themselves and the people in the forest, but mostly themselves with the help of the people in the forest. And trust me, after 3 days without communications, power and gas, every place will be pretty third world. You want to be somewhere you can get to the central supply points, and that is no place where you can hunt and trap very well.

And realistically, there is no way to avoid being effected by an TEOTWAKI senario, which in all honesty is what it sounds like you are looking at. You aren't going to find the sacred valley which is free of fallout/ice pack/plague/whatever the media worry of the monthis. There just isn't one.

You're better off with a a gallon of water than with a bow, and an extra MRE than a dozen high end snares, in any realistic bug out. Which means that you are using come kind of infernal combustion vehicle or maybe horses. Those will let you carry more than you should on your back if you aren't in tip top shape. If you have to abandon the vehicle to live, that's the choice you have to make, but the only things you should grab from the car in that case is BOB and any family members who can't get out of the car on thier own. BOB is a layer, and you have to ditch him, hopefully you have a smaller kit that you can pull free in under 60 seconds or is on you in a different way. And you have to dump that or it gets snagged by the spirits of the water, land, air or fire, then you have your PSK and your belt items. And if you don't have that, hopefully you were able to save your boots, becuase that means you don't have pants anymore. Given a choice between covering my butt and my feet, I'll inflict the trauma on the world and protect my toes. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don't worry, gator- we put up with us. I'm grumpy, I'll let the other dwarves introduce themselves. Except for sleepy, he's not on very often.

Thanks, Much appreciated.

For the what to carry it with, rather than the what to carry, ignoring the other factors....

I still like the ALICE packs (with HSGI's ALI-Pad if I need to use the USGI frame) and anyone other than the Army's shoulder straps. CFP-90 sucks a bunch, but that's just becuase I've never seen one with the inner spars that were adjustable, to thick and stiff. If you could find replacement ones that could actually be fitted to the user, they'd be great. Mountainsmith, Kifaru (both thier hunting and thier military lines), Gregory is good. Even LL Beans bags are good- my brother swears by his, has since he was in Scouts. Dana and Ospery both seem to be highly thought of, and amoung hunting guides, Cabela and Gander Mountain's lines seem to have a following.

Outside of military issue, there are TONS of large expedition packs. I like an external frame pack, myself, but that is becuase they are more versitile and they keep your back cooler. Internal frames are lighter and less prone to snagging. I've heard for years that internals are more comfortable, but to me that says you aren't using a frame that fits your body. Which is the problem with milsurp frame packs- they need to buy a couple million, you can't have every grunt trying on packs until he finds one that fits. But since you only need to buy one or two, your best bet is to go to someplace like EMS or any of the other camping/hiking stores with an ok or better selection, and try some on. They'll put as much weight in it as you think you can manage, have them help you adjust it to your back, and spend half an hour browsing the store. Squat, kneel, bend over, maybe take the stairs. If after a half hour with the weight of your projected load plus a bit (10%, 20%, that's up to you, but trust me, it will get bigger) a pack that was comfortable isn't any more, it will feel like a death march.

(Didn't I type this someplace recently?)

I won't recommend one pack becuase that would be unethical of me. It is identical to recommending a chair to someone- you can't, you don't have thier spine. In this case, you also don't have thier shoulders, hips, knees and feet. Nor will I recommend shoes but by brand- I know what holds up, or what seems to hold up for others, but I can't in good faith tell you that model XYZ is going to be the one for you.

Raven; Large Alice or medium? Military design ( Kifaru/Eagle ect) or civi? What about color? Some say OD or Tan for cammo, some say mil look can get you shot in some senarios, and you should blend with the sheep. And where do you find decent large capacity external frame packs? Since Kelty stopped making the Super Toiga, I kind of gave up on the species My plan is to either drive with the wife (given enough lead time before the roads morph into parking lots) in which case color dosn't matter, or if not, we will E&E accross the Bronx and take a secluded bike, hike, deer, or mouse trail home. Long dam walk though Jim

I have several BOBs. All for different things. My big BOB is a light weight back pack from Outdoor products. It weighs 22 lbs with enough to survive for the longest term. I've used it for up to 6 weeks in the woods. Next is my regular BOB, it is smaller and weighs about 13 lbs loaded and I can do fine for about a week or a little longer. Then there's my baby BOB that I usually have near me at all times. It weighs about 8 lbs loaded and can sustain me for about 3 days or a little longer. What I look for in a back pack is, it has to be lightweight, have a lot of pockets and it has to be comfortable.

Is this what you're trying to ask us for?

http://www.eagleindustries.com/ProdDisp.asp?PartNoID=430

Ironraven and aligator, thanks for those last two posts. Those were helpful, at least to me. I've almost thought of packs as just things to keep stuff together in as opposed to totes, so internal vs external frame considerations hadn't really crossed my mind much. I'm hking up my knowledge demands, which is good.

Can't put straps on a frameless large ALICE, and I hate that frame. I use a medium. :P I've got a new one on the way, so I guess I need to by a bunch of new patches to blend in with the hippies and other fruitcakes...

As for color, oh, goods, not this question.... You want to look fairly innocent most of the time. Get something that makes you happy, and a neutral or dark jewel tone spare tire cover for a jeep or suv. It might need some minor modification, but it will keep your stuff dry and you less hasseled. Line it with camo if you want, so it is two sided. Looking tactical can at times be borrowing more trouble than it is worth. Remember, urban camoflauge means looking non-scary and keeping a low profile.

Folks, remember, as a result of the Katrina handling, don't be suprised if the govenors are are willing to bring in the Gaurd early and often if there is a problem. And FEMA will have thier escorts, they know they aren't trusted or liked. That means a lot of guys with guns who have more guys with guns on the other end of the radio, who will have orders to maintain order. Period.

Your pack is your shell, your hump, your fur. If it dies, you've got to choose which gear you carry in your hands, and what you leave behind. If it isn't comfortable, that means it is rubbing at your skin, which mean blisters and bleeding and infection where you really can't reach it alone, or you are doing muscle and joint damage. Or worse, you are messing up your spine. All of these can lead to you meeting Murphy before you are ready.

Similarly, a pack can limit where you can go. That might mean you can't take a certain path. Or you can't take it into a shelter with you, so your gear gets wet (not much is truely waterproof, just resistant), which means more weight, wasted rations and medical supplies, a sleeping bag that has negative insulation, et al. All of which can lead to you meeting Murphy before you are ready.

The funny thing is, I actually have a very good friend named Murphy who is probably lurking here. And waking up to his ugly face is good for a yelp.