Good Evening Ladies(?) and Gents; This is my first post, Great forum! I've been lurking and learning for a long time. If this question has already been answered, please redirect me. My question; what is the next step beyond a BOB for use in extenced training or SHTF senario in which you must sustain for extended periods (>/= 72hrs.) perhaps while in transit. Looking at some of the UK woodscraft forums, they seem to like large military packs (Berghaus Monarc ect.) What are your thoughts/ what do you use. How big? Colors( subdued to camoflage or Joe hiker to blend in)? What is your load out? Do you use the same pack all seasons (adjustable volume to accomadate winter clothes) or do you have two bags smaller for summer / larger for winter? Where do you store it? Thanks in advance; Jim

Can you go out longer than 72 hours with a pack? Yes. But those packs are very heavy, or you are eating spirullena (sp, those algea pills) or maybe mainstays, and you have no real water reserve. I mean, maybe a paratrooper wouldnt' complain, but that's about it. (And even then 50 or so pounds of that is usually parachute, and they usually drop a lot of stuff at thier rally point.)

Realistically, after 72 hours, you need to be dug in. It's just a mater of practicality. Even a BIG pack is only going to hold you for 120-140 hours, and you can't even begin to pack that much water.

If I had an idea what precisely you had in mind, I could give you an answer that more in keeping with what you probably had in mind, but before you tell us more, write down everything you need for say, 120 hours. Don't plan on being able to get water that is potable for the first 48 hours. Add up the weight, and the bulk. And ask yourself if you can even pick it up, much less hump it for 12-16 hours at a stretch. If you can, you are cutting a corner someplace or have access to some seriously level after next tech.

Gents; Thanks for the response. I think about "survival" in generalities. Not planning for anything specific, just hoping that the skills and equipment I put together will cover the bases in what ever happens. My understanding of a BOB is to supliment our edc and allow us to escape whatever situitation we find ourselves in: Think light and fast. What I'm asking about is the step beyond the BOB. This is the bag you grab, when you have access to it, when you think you'll be gone for a while.I think of it in terms of a travle bag. Home is no longer tennable and I need to leave with my family. We will drive as far as we can and then walk. To my mind, as has been demonstrated yet again recently, shelters are not an option. So off we go to the hidey hole. If we can make it that far. The pack is to allow transport of the stuff we need to make this trip. How long will the situitation last? I plan for the long term, if it turns out to be shorter, nothing lost. Just wanted your thoughts Re. the packs you use for such applications. Thanks Jim

Backpackers can routinely go for 1-2 weeks with what is on their back. That said, water has to be found and food has to be light (think dehydrated). Any expedition sized backpack will fill the bill and you can cram 50-80 lbs if you needed.

Yes, and those guys train for it. Most of us have desk jobs and would be hard pressed to manage an 80 pound pack.

Long distance hikes are over (semi-)maintained trails. They are usually planned for good weather months. If you get sick or hurt, or the weather does something completely unexepected, you can abort or take a day off. You've worked your way up to it so you are warmed up. And usually your biggest hazards aren't human.

In a bug out, you are starting off cold. You might not have been on the trail in months, it might have been a month since you've even put this pack on. You should expect to have to deal with snow to your knees, or water to the hips- basically, the worst possible weather your area can have. You might need to negotiate fire escapes or maintence tunnels if you are in an urban setting, or take a goat trail down a cliff face. If it's a quake, you'll have to deal with rubble. You might get nailed in a police/military check point and bussed out with your one carry on item that MUST fit in your seat with you (that's the way most extractions from foriegn soil work if they can get the choppers or landing craft in, or chartered flights).

And I freely admit, I learned about bugging out from folks who've mostly done so in the third world, so that is the parameters I plan for. Things like your vehicle being commandeered at gunpoint, and allowed to take your ruck if you are lucky. And if you don't think someone would be carjacked for a nice big, off-road capable vehicle in say, a big quake, I'd say you might have too much faith in humaity.

Hiking the AT or the PT is good, it means you can move a long ways. But I've picked up those packs, tried them on, with the weight in them. They are heavy but not horrifically so, but I'm also a big boy. But I wouldn't want to have to do anything very active wearing one, becuase of the degree of limitation to your mobility and flexibility. And I'd really hate to have three minutes to decided what I need from my pack and have to leave the rest behind becuase it is the only way out; or worse, paint a bullseye on my back with it.

For your requirements, Aligator, it sounds like you are talking about an extension or annex to BOB, maybe something that you could put in the car and then use BOB if you have to ditch the vehicle? Or are you talking a superBOB?

The point that I was trying to make is that a 72 hr plus kit contains what............more food, extra batteries, change of clothes or additional clothes? the 72 hr kit has everything you need to survive for 72 hrs, including water if possible. To extend this what do you need.......more consumables. You won't be able to carry more water unless you have alternate transportation so you are going to have to find it along the way. Go backpacking meals and you get light albeit expensive. Toss in an appropriate sleeping bag and bivy/tent. You don't need to go 80 lbs, but what is the real delta if you go light on food and don't plus up the water?

I get the impression he just wants to know what would be a good backpack or the like with some decent capacity size beyond the BOB. I think he knows what he intends to stow in it. Me too. Could anyone help with that one? There are many on the market with great variance in pricing. Thanks

Gents; Thanks for the responses. Perhaps I can clarify. Call it what you will; super BOB, 72Hr.+ bag, long term bag, whatever. My thought is a bag, kept at home or carried in the car, and deployed when the situitation dictates that you must vacate your home (where you have sqirrled away most of your stuff) and travel by what ever means available to what ever destination you have arrainged, or you are for whatever reason more then 2-3 days from home under the theory that you might have to walk home. I am aware of the adustments needed for season(snow shoes, winter sleeping bags ect) which is why in my original post, I asked if you folks used a 2 pack system ( winter and then the rest of the year) or if you used an adjustable volume pack. I am aware of the rule of threes and I presume the contents of the pack would reflect them. I am endevoring to gain a level of knowlege that would embody the old defination of a "woodsman". Yes water only after air, shelter/fire. You can never carry enough ( kind of like ammo ) and sourcing is always questionable, but that is a given in any survival situation, Limiting factor long term, the availabillity of food. You can only carry so much and when its consumed you will have to procure it through "traditional " means. Yes, weapons( rifle/shotgun, bow, sling shot, rabbit stick ect), fishing gear, and professional ( Buckshots ) trapping gear will be included. Put another way, how do you folks do this? What do you have for when a BOB is just not enough and you can't access your stash from home? Am I blowing smoke here, is this somthing that hasn't been considered before or is it simply a senario that can't happen? Thank for your kind consideration Jim

Well, this is one of those differences in opinion in what goes in BOB- I want 72 hours of water, but will settle for 36 hours. That's 12 pounds of water, a conservative estimate, plus the weight of the water vessels. 24 pounds a small camel's worth of bulk if I'm carrying what I want to have. When he's assembled, my BOB is one I can only grudingly call a 72 hour pack becuase I know every source of water along my likely foot-evac routes.

I rate BOB's life by how long I can be self sustaining out of him. Water is the real weight in my box of stuff that is to go into the pack as needed. Without the water supply and the stuff on my belt, but with food, it's a twenty-five pound pack. Which with the water really is the most you want if you need to get out of dodge on the hard road, at least in my opinion.

Keep in mind, you have BOB, plus (hopefully) a ditch module you can grab if you have to dump him, your PSK, your EDC and a few toys slipped into your pockets. (I like layers, what can I say?) Add in a good pair of boots, the clothes on your back and the hat on your head, a sidearm if you are wanting one, a staff, and Murphy's fingernail clippings, and it comes up to a tidy weight. Maybe I've got a harder road than some, I don't know. I just know I plan for the worst that I can run from.

I think the other thing here might be difference of BOB philosophy- to me, BOB is the guy who gets you to your destination, he isn't your destination. If you don't know where you are going, you might want to be digging in, unless you think you can outrun the danger.

Gents; Thanks for putting up with me. My version: I agree with layers, on body EDC with a small bag to carry stuff that don't fit in the pockets, BOB, Long term pack and whatever you have put up at home. My concern is that I may not be able to access the stuff at home at least not immediatly, and may need more stuff then is normally contained in BOB (light and fast) with due consideration and adjustment for season. Thanks; Jim