Good Evening Ladies(?) and Gents; This is my first post, Great forum! I've been lurking and learning for a long time. If this question has already been answered, please redirect me. My question; what is the next step beyond a BOB for use in extenced training or SHTF senario in which you must sustain for extended periods (>/= 72hrs.) perhaps while in transit. Looking at some of the UK woodscraft forums, they seem to like large military packs (Berghaus Monarc ect.) What are your thoughts/ what do you use. How big? Colors( subdued to camoflage or Joe hiker to blend in)? What is your load out? Do you use the same pack all seasons (adjustable volume to accomadate winter clothes) or do you have two bags smaller for summer / larger for winter? Where do you store it? Thanks in advance; Jim

Can you go out longer than 72 hours with a pack? Yes. But those packs are very heavy, or you are eating spirullena (sp, those algea pills) or maybe mainstays, and you have no real water reserve. I mean, maybe a paratrooper wouldnt' complain, but that's about it. (And even then 50 or so pounds of that is usually parachute, and they usually drop a lot of stuff at thier rally point.)

Realistically, after 72 hours, you need to be dug in. It's just a mater of practicality. Even a BIG pack is only going to hold you for 120-140 hours, and you can't even begin to pack that much water.

If I had an idea what precisely you had in mind, I could give you an answer that more in keeping with what you probably had in mind, but before you tell us more, write down everything you need for say, 120 hours. Don't plan on being able to get water that is potable for the first 48 hours. Add up the weight, and the bulk. And ask yourself if you can even pick it up, much less hump it for 12-16 hours at a stretch. If you can, you are cutting a corner someplace or have access to some seriously level after next tech.

Gents; Thanks for the response. I think about "survival" in generalities. Not planning for anything specific, just hoping that the skills and equipment I put together will cover the bases in what ever happens. My understanding of a BOB is to supliment our edc and allow us to escape whatever situitation we find ourselves in: Think light and fast. What I'm asking about is the step beyond the BOB. This is the bag you grab, when you have access to it, when you think you'll be gone for a while.I think of it in terms of a travle bag. Home is no longer tennable and I need to leave with my family. We will drive as far as we can and then walk. To my mind, as has been demonstrated yet again recently, shelters are not an option. So off we go to the hidey hole. If we can make it that far. The pack is to allow transport of the stuff we need to make this trip. How long will the situitation last? I plan for the long term, if it turns out to be shorter, nothing lost. Just wanted your thoughts Re. the packs you use for such applications. Thanks Jim

Backpackers can routinely go for 1-2 weeks with what is on their back. That said, water has to be found and food has to be light (think dehydrated). Any expedition sized backpack will fill the bill and you can cram 50-80 lbs if you needed.

Yes, and those guys train for it. Most of us have desk jobs and would be hard pressed to manage an 80 pound pack.

Long distance hikes are over (semi-)maintained trails. They are usually planned for good weather months. If you get sick or hurt, or the weather does something completely unexepected, you can abort or take a day off. You've worked your way up to it so you are warmed up. And usually your biggest hazards aren't human.

In a bug out, you are starting off cold. You might not have been on the trail in months, it might have been a month since you've even put this pack on. You should expect to have to deal with snow to your knees, or water to the hips- basically, the worst possible weather your area can have. You might need to negotiate fire escapes or maintence tunnels if you are in an urban setting, or take a goat trail down a cliff face. If it's a quake, you'll have to deal with rubble. You might get nailed in a police/military check point and bussed out with your one carry on item that MUST fit in your seat with you (that's the way most extractions from foriegn soil work if they can get the choppers or landing craft in, or chartered flights).

And I freely admit, I learned about bugging out from folks who've mostly done so in the third world, so that is the parameters I plan for. Things like your vehicle being commandeered at gunpoint, and allowed to take your ruck if you are lucky. And if you don't think someone would be carjacked for a nice big, off-road capable vehicle in say, a big quake, I'd say you might have too much faith in humaity.

Hiking the AT or the PT is good, it means you can move a long ways. But I've picked up those packs, tried them on, with the weight in them. They are heavy but not horrifically so, but I'm also a big boy. But I wouldn't want to have to do anything very active wearing one, becuase of the degree of limitation to your mobility and flexibility. And I'd really hate to have three minutes to decided what I need from my pack and have to leave the rest behind becuase it is the only way out; or worse, paint a bullseye on my back with it.

For your requirements, Aligator, it sounds like you are talking about an extension or annex to BOB, maybe something that you could put in the car and then use BOB if you have to ditch the vehicle? Or are you talking a superBOB?

The point that I was trying to make is that a 72 hr plus kit contains what............more food, extra batteries, change of clothes or additional clothes? the 72 hr kit has everything you need to survive for 72 hrs, including water if possible. To extend this what do you need.......more consumables. You won't be able to carry more water unless you have alternate transportation so you are going to have to find it along the way. Go backpacking meals and you get light albeit expensive. Toss in an appropriate sleeping bag and bivy/tent. You don't need to go 80 lbs, but what is the real delta if you go light on food and don't plus up the water?

I get the impression he just wants to know what would be a good backpack or the like with some decent capacity size beyond the BOB. I think he knows what he intends to stow in it. Me too. Could anyone help with that one? There are many on the market with great variance in pricing. Thanks

Gents; Thanks for the responses. Perhaps I can clarify. Call it what you will; super BOB, 72Hr.+ bag, long term bag, whatever. My thought is a bag, kept at home or carried in the car, and deployed when the situitation dictates that you must vacate your home (where you have sqirrled away most of your stuff) and travel by what ever means available to what ever destination you have arrainged, or you are for whatever reason more then 2-3 days from home under the theory that you might have to walk home. I am aware of the adustments needed for season(snow shoes, winter sleeping bags ect) which is why in my original post, I asked if you folks used a 2 pack system ( winter and then the rest of the year) or if you used an adjustable volume pack. I am aware of the rule of threes and I presume the contents of the pack would reflect them. I am endevoring to gain a level of knowlege that would embody the old defination of a "woodsman". Yes water only after air, shelter/fire. You can never carry enough ( kind of like ammo ) and sourcing is always questionable, but that is a given in any survival situation, Limiting factor long term, the availabillity of food. You can only carry so much and when its consumed you will have to procure it through "traditional " means. Yes, weapons( rifle/shotgun, bow, sling shot, rabbit stick ect), fishing gear, and professional ( Buckshots ) trapping gear will be included. Put another way, how do you folks do this? What do you have for when a BOB is just not enough and you can't access your stash from home? Am I blowing smoke here, is this somthing that hasn't been considered before or is it simply a senario that can't happen? Thank for your kind consideration Jim

Well, this is one of those differences in opinion in what goes in BOB- I want 72 hours of water, but will settle for 36 hours. That's 12 pounds of water, a conservative estimate, plus the weight of the water vessels. 24 pounds a small camel's worth of bulk if I'm carrying what I want to have. When he's assembled, my BOB is one I can only grudingly call a 72 hour pack becuase I know every source of water along my likely foot-evac routes.

I rate BOB's life by how long I can be self sustaining out of him. Water is the real weight in my box of stuff that is to go into the pack as needed. Without the water supply and the stuff on my belt, but with food, it's a twenty-five pound pack. Which with the water really is the most you want if you need to get out of dodge on the hard road, at least in my opinion.

Keep in mind, you have BOB, plus (hopefully) a ditch module you can grab if you have to dump him, your PSK, your EDC and a few toys slipped into your pockets. (I like layers, what can I say?) Add in a good pair of boots, the clothes on your back and the hat on your head, a sidearm if you are wanting one, a staff, and Murphy's fingernail clippings, and it comes up to a tidy weight. Maybe I've got a harder road than some, I don't know. I just know I plan for the worst that I can run from.

I think the other thing here might be difference of BOB philosophy- to me, BOB is the guy who gets you to your destination, he isn't your destination. If you don't know where you are going, you might want to be digging in, unless you think you can outrun the danger.

Gents; Thanks for putting up with me. My version: I agree with layers, on body EDC with a small bag to carry stuff that don't fit in the pockets, BOB, Long term pack and whatever you have put up at home. My concern is that I may not be able to access the stuff at home at least not immediatly, and may need more stuff then is normally contained in BOB (light and fast) with due consideration and adjustment for season. Thanks; Jim

Snares? Bows? So you are talking about living off the land in an apocolyptic scenario? Great drauma and romance in it, absolutely, the stuff movie and novels are made of.

Nothing personal, but don't try living off the land during a bug out OR in the longterm. Your BOB should get you to someplace where you are expected and is prepared for you. BOBs are for mobility, and that means you aren't hunting anything bigger than bunnies that mistakenly come across your path. You can't do snares unless you've got a fixed location, and effective hunting means knowing where the game is going to be so you can ambush it, which is not a short term situation. You have to stay on the move until you get to were you are going. Either that, or get you just outside of the effects of a localized even and shelter there. That is where the relief supplies will go, and if you need to start over, that is were the people with jobs and places to live are going to be.

If you want a redoubt, a retreat, that's great- build one, spend time there, get to know the locals, pay taxes. If you're a known face, you'll last longer. And make sure you leave the city before the grand evac order is given so you can avoid the rush/traffic jam. Make sure you have enough gas in your rig to get there without hitting a gas station, and you have everything you need either already there or in your one vehicle. But you can't build a retreat into a pack.

Heading for the hills is about the silliest thing you can do, becuase those of who live in the hills (a) aren't much better prepaired for a loss of logistics than city folk are, and (b) can't stretch that any further. That is becuase we don't have any mythical stockpiles- sure we've got game, but we've also got a decent population density and a lot of subdevelopment sprawl which has trashed the water table and torn up too much natural habitat. The game will be gone in under two months, along with the livestock, housepets, and the one seeing eye dog in my town. But for groceries, medicine, fuel, we get it the same way everyone else does- every other day or every two days in big trucks.

The stockpiles are in suburbia. If you're going to locust, which is what living off the land turns into when you have hundreds of thousands of people trying it, hit them. Your belly really will be full longer, you dont' have to walk as far, and you're a lot less likely to get shot for stealing someone's fire wood. (And I'm not kidding- wood is life if you have real winters and no other heat source.)

I hate to sound mean, but that is the simple and honest truth. If you want to see models of this, look through the third world- when the city folk head for the forest becuase the war has come, they hurt themselves and the people in the forest, but mostly themselves with the help of the people in the forest. And trust me, after 3 days without communications, power and gas, every place will be pretty third world. You want to be somewhere you can get to the central supply points, and that is no place where you can hunt and trap very well.

And realistically, there is no way to avoid being effected by an TEOTWAKI senario, which in all honesty is what it sounds like you are looking at. You aren't going to find the sacred valley which is free of fallout/ice pack/plague/whatever the media worry of the monthis. There just isn't one.

You're better off with a a gallon of water than with a bow, and an extra MRE than a dozen high end snares, in any realistic bug out. Which means that you are using come kind of infernal combustion vehicle or maybe horses. Those will let you carry more than you should on your back if you aren't in tip top shape. If you have to abandon the vehicle to live, that's the choice you have to make, but the only things you should grab from the car in that case is BOB and any family members who can't get out of the car on thier own. BOB is a layer, and you have to ditch him, hopefully you have a smaller kit that you can pull free in under 60 seconds or is on you in a different way. And you have to dump that or it gets snagged by the spirits of the water, land, air or fire, then you have your PSK and your belt items. And if you don't have that, hopefully you were able to save your boots, becuase that means you don't have pants anymore. Given a choice between covering my butt and my feet, I'll inflict the trauma on the world and protect my toes. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don't worry, gator- we put up with us. I'm grumpy, I'll let the other dwarves introduce themselves. Except for sleepy, he's not on very often.

Thanks, Much appreciated.

For the what to carry it with, rather than the what to carry, ignoring the other factors....

I still like the ALICE packs (with HSGI's ALI-Pad if I need to use the USGI frame) and anyone other than the Army's shoulder straps. CFP-90 sucks a bunch, but that's just becuase I've never seen one with the inner spars that were adjustable, to thick and stiff. If you could find replacement ones that could actually be fitted to the user, they'd be great. Mountainsmith, Kifaru (both thier hunting and thier military lines), Gregory is good. Even LL Beans bags are good- my brother swears by his, has since he was in Scouts. Dana and Ospery both seem to be highly thought of, and amoung hunting guides, Cabela and Gander Mountain's lines seem to have a following.

Outside of military issue, there are TONS of large expedition packs. I like an external frame pack, myself, but that is becuase they are more versitile and they keep your back cooler. Internal frames are lighter and less prone to snagging. I've heard for years that internals are more comfortable, but to me that says you aren't using a frame that fits your body. Which is the problem with milsurp frame packs- they need to buy a couple million, you can't have every grunt trying on packs until he finds one that fits. But since you only need to buy one or two, your best bet is to go to someplace like EMS or any of the other camping/hiking stores with an ok or better selection, and try some on. They'll put as much weight in it as you think you can manage, have them help you adjust it to your back, and spend half an hour browsing the store. Squat, kneel, bend over, maybe take the stairs. If after a half hour with the weight of your projected load plus a bit (10%, 20%, that's up to you, but trust me, it will get bigger) a pack that was comfortable isn't any more, it will feel like a death march.

(Didn't I type this someplace recently?)

I won't recommend one pack becuase that would be unethical of me. It is identical to recommending a chair to someone- you can't, you don't have thier spine. In this case, you also don't have thier shoulders, hips, knees and feet. Nor will I recommend shoes but by brand- I know what holds up, or what seems to hold up for others, but I can't in good faith tell you that model XYZ is going to be the one for you.

Raven; Large Alice or medium? Military design ( Kifaru/Eagle ect) or civi? What about color? Some say OD or Tan for cammo, some say mil look can get you shot in some senarios, and you should blend with the sheep. And where do you find decent large capacity external frame packs? Since Kelty stopped making the Super Toiga, I kind of gave up on the species My plan is to either drive with the wife (given enough lead time before the roads morph into parking lots) in which case color dosn't matter, or if not, we will E&E accross the Bronx and take a secluded bike, hike, deer, or mouse trail home. Long dam walk though Jim

I have several BOBs. All for different things. My big BOB is a light weight back pack from Outdoor products. It weighs 22 lbs with enough to survive for the longest term. I've used it for up to 6 weeks in the woods. Next is my regular BOB, it is smaller and weighs about 13 lbs loaded and I can do fine for about a week or a little longer. Then there's my baby BOB that I usually have near me at all times. It weighs about 8 lbs loaded and can sustain me for about 3 days or a little longer. What I look for in a back pack is, it has to be lightweight, have a lot of pockets and it has to be comfortable.

Is this what you're trying to ask us for?

http://www.eagleindustries.com/ProdDisp.asp?PartNoID=430

Ironraven and aligator, thanks for those last two posts. Those were helpful, at least to me. I've almost thought of packs as just things to keep stuff together in as opposed to totes, so internal vs external frame considerations hadn't really crossed my mind much. I'm hking up my knowledge demands, which is good.

Can't put straps on a frameless large ALICE, and I hate that frame. I use a medium. :P I've got a new one on the way, so I guess I need to by a bunch of new patches to blend in with the hippies and other fruitcakes...

As for color, oh, goods, not this question.... You want to look fairly innocent most of the time. Get something that makes you happy, and a neutral or dark jewel tone spare tire cover for a jeep or suv. It might need some minor modification, but it will keep your stuff dry and you less hasseled. Line it with camo if you want, so it is two sided. Looking tactical can at times be borrowing more trouble than it is worth. Remember, urban camoflauge means looking non-scary and keeping a low profile.

Folks, remember, as a result of the Katrina handling, don't be suprised if the govenors are are willing to bring in the Gaurd early and often if there is a problem. And FEMA will have thier escorts, they know they aren't trusted or liked. That means a lot of guys with guns who have more guys with guns on the other end of the radio, who will have orders to maintain order. Period.

Your pack is your shell, your hump, your fur. If it dies, you've got to choose which gear you carry in your hands, and what you leave behind. If it isn't comfortable, that means it is rubbing at your skin, which mean blisters and bleeding and infection where you really can't reach it alone, or you are doing muscle and joint damage. Or worse, you are messing up your spine. All of these can lead to you meeting Murphy before you are ready.

Similarly, a pack can limit where you can go. That might mean you can't take a certain path. Or you can't take it into a shelter with you, so your gear gets wet (not much is truely waterproof, just resistant), which means more weight, wasted rations and medical supplies, a sleeping bag that has negative insulation, et al. All of which can lead to you meeting Murphy before you are ready.

The funny thing is, I actually have a very good friend named Murphy who is probably lurking here. And waking up to his ugly face is good for a yelp.

How mobile are you with that 22 pound pack for six weeks? You must be setting up a base camp and foraging.

I'll stay in one place for a couple of weeks then move around, but it's mostly in the same area. Only a few miles difference. It just depends on where feels good. I like spending time in the woods, it's like home for me. My house is basically like a staging area for me. I stay home long enough to take care of business then I'm gone again. A 22 lb pack isn't that big of a burden if you get used to it. I mostly go solo so I don't have to go at someone elses pace. I take lots of breaks and take time to smell the roses.

Ah! Difference in philosophy about BOB. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Where most people would probably bug out from home or office, I would bug out to home. Same philosophy just different direction.

We got to get a philosophy section here! To me, it's all about tools. Just as stated elsewhere, Your mind is the ultimit weapon.Your body dose the minds bidding. The tools you choose augment your bodies abillities. So, first is: Honesty, Respect, Courage, Love, Selfsacrifice, and Honor for these you need to reason well. Then is knowlege of woods craft ( and a whole bunch of other things ).Then comes your choice of tools. Man is a creature of tool. We need tools to protect us from those things in our environment that can kill us. Whether you buy your tools or create your own tools, chooes well, because if a tool fails it can have rather drastic repercussions. Nature is at best ambivillant about our efforts at wilderness( or any other) living. With enough knowlege and a large enough group of us with enough old ones to teach us the old sustainable ways, we can do very well. But at any point, equipment failure, poor descisions, or simply your body being unable to do somthing... There aren't any garantees. Tomorrow is not promissed and no one get out of this life alive. The best I can do is the best I can do. And when the end comes thats OK too. Respectfully; Jim

Gents, Ok, so what else? I think that having a BOB/Go-Bag is great and after the basics are covered some of us probably carry enough to get by for rather longer then what it probable with the contents of your average bob, I dont want to get tangeled in semantics, but I also thing that having access to and a reliable/ ergonomic method of moving about with this stuff is important. Thanks for your kind consideration Jim

Hi,

I've always had a ditch society pack. Fully loaded it's 43 lbs.
Does anyone else keep one?

I've spent untold thousands on survival training but even I wonder if I could survive long term. One never knows until they try and my work won't let me have a year or two off to try.

I hope I'll never have to use it but if there is a plague or something really bad I'll leave for a few years (or as long as I can hold out).

Ditch society packs-Does anyone else keep one?
Or am I a particular type of crazy?

-Nim

For a few years, you need skills. Can't put those in a pack. That's for tools and a well built redoubt are for. But that's getting into black 'copter land.

Still, if I ever become insanely, filthy rich, one of the things I want to do is buy an old missile silo, and make it utterly water tight. And inside, printed on something that won't degrade for a few thousand years, there would be books starting with C-A-T is cat with the picture above, and working on up from there until you are into 1960 or so level technology. Most of the advanced stuff would be on something like microfilm that can stand the age, probably some kind of optically pure glass with buckytubes to form the text (no, I don't think cheap), along with readers that will work on candles. (It can be done, you use mirrors to keep the soot off the lenses and film- still working the patent search for it.)

And seal it, walk away.

Then again, I am the guy who suspects in a past life he worked in the Library at Alexandria, and probably died trying to evacuate the more interesting parts of the collection. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have a ditch society pack too, but I use mine. Mostly because I sometimes spend long periods of time in the wilderness. You really should use yours even if it's just for a weekend, even if all you do is check to make sure everything works. That way if you ever ditch society there won't be as many surprises. Experience really is the best teacher. I've been working on mine for years and still find things to add or take away.

How heavy is yours? Do you have a list of the contents?

I agree that they always change. Even if I'm not able to camp I go through it a couple of times a year.

The last time I weighed mine , it weighed about 22lbs. I think I've added a couple of things since then though. I'm a bit of a pack rat so I have a lot of stuff in it but you'd be surprised at how often I use everything in it.
I have plastic school boxes about the size of a cigar box that I seperate things into.
In 1 I have Tools:
eye glass repair kit with magnafying glass
needle nose pliers
wire cutters
box cutter
small matchbox with paneling nails and a few screws
scribe
2 magnets
hemostats
3 screw drivers 1 med sloted, 1 med phillips, 1 small sloted
leatherman
6 small wooden skewers
small roll of steel wire
cable ties variety of sizes
paper clips, saftey pins and a few round tooth picks
pencil
6 inch ruler
2 tubes super glue
roll of electrical tape
3 emory boards
large needle used to sew up feed sacks
awl
small tube of machine oil
sharpening stone
bic lighter
small box of matches in baggie
in another box I have personal items
soap/ wash cloth ( the wash cloth was bought at wal mart in the toy section about the size of 2 half dollars stacked, they grow in water. (glorified paper towel)
small bottle of lotion
comb
toothbrush,toothpaste,floss, listerine strips
1 package of baby wipes
small bottle of shampoo
2 disposible razors
small bic lighter, small box of matches in baggie
small mirror
I have a FAK in a Quantum artificial bait pouch
Just in my pack I have a spool of artificial senew
1 spool of cord
1 small roll of clear tubing/ a few connectors
1spool of cajun fishing line # 8
small stainless steel bowl
small insulated cup
1 jar chicken bullion
gallon sized baggie of various pkgs of gravies and seasonings, the just add water kind
large spoon, teaspoon, fork
folder with various survival tips in it, kept in a 2.5 gallon baggie
2 plastic cigar tubes filled with dryer lint and 3 trick candles in each for fire starting
1 of those magnesium fire starter thingys with a piece of a hack saw blade attatched
poncho
2 trash bags
Machete the real wide kind, I modified the handle and made it longer. I use it for everything , I have even cooked a fish on it.
1 medium spray bottle filled with lemon joy, good for cleaning and when sprayed around camp keeps the bugs away
space blanket, flannel sheet
hammock
crank radio
shake flashlight
hatchet
large kinfe
about 50ft para cord
1 roll of duct tape
thats all I can think of thats in it right now
I go through mine before every trip out and change it up according to where I'm going

That's a good bit of kit!

How did the fish turn out?

Cooking over an open fire is always good.