Hello,

I was at a sports store today and saw many on clearance. Mostly Motorola.

I would basically want to use it when I go camping? Any suggestions? Or a website that does ratings?

P.S I have started to build my EDC and PSK. Everything based on THIS FORUM. So I thank EVERYONE for their fine support and suggestions. And thank Mr Ritter also for this fine site.

Chicago,

You were probably seeing the Motorola branded GMRS and FRS handheld radios. If they have 22 channels with PL, or private line codes, then they are the GMRS/FRS combo radios. GMRS allows for up to a 10 mile range depending upon multiple variables. You need a license for GMRS, which can be done on-line through FCC.gov The FCC charges $80 USD for the license and you cannot use certain frequencies along the Canadian border due to potential harmful interference. For more information on these units try www.gmrs.org and www.frs.org I hope this helps.

Stargazer

You probably found the FRS/GRS radios, a lot of times they get labeled as CB's.
I just bought a new one for my truck, Cobra 25, it was a little smaller than the popular cobra 29's and has NOAA weather monitoring as well.
I'm going to pick up a handheld for camping and hunting and such.

I like the motorola units.. Before buying, I would double check to make sure that they can take ordinary AA or AAA batteries. Some of the units now only do a proprietory rechargeable.. The rechargeable is fine for everyday use, but it's always better to be able to use regular batteries in emergencies.

Get a longer range model -- 8,10, 12 or 14 mile. These ratings are optimistic and drop off with interference from trees, buildings, etc. A belt clip and charger are nice festures.

TRO

Unfortunately many folks are not getting the GMRS license from the FCC and using the "blister pack" radios from their local electronics aisle anyway. Plus, many manufacturers are marketing them as "FRS / GMRS" radios. (I think eventually we will see the GMRS license requirement go away, similar to what happened with the MURS VHF frequencies after radio makers flooded the market with cheap models.)

Something else to consider is eventually going for your ham radio license. The ARRL has a good section for new folks:

http://www.arrl.org/

When CB radio was introduced in the early sixties, an FCC license with an assigned call sign, was required. (Still have mine.)
When the CB boom hit, the feds finally gave up and eliminated the license requirement.

"There is nothing so frightening as ignorance in action."

Let me make a suggestion that's just slightly off topic. Get your amateur radio license. I promise you it isnt that difficult, and you would have a more reliable, or at least more likely, audience on the other end in case something dire occured, whether it was an individual incident, such as running out of gasoline, or something more pervasive. See arrl.org for how to proceed. KI4OBM Or send me a private email and I will help you. Otherwise, there is nothing wrong with the advice previously posted regarding the CB's. And I have nothing against these other modes of communication, by the way. Greg

It's hard to find a pure FRS (Family Radio Service) radio anymore, but they're 14 channels (or less) and 1/2 watt (or less). No license requirement at all.

The most common is the combination FRS/GMRS radio with 22 channels and up to 5 watts. Though a license is technically required for GMRS, I have never heard of it being enforced. They're a great value these days. Make sure to get ones with the full five watts (many have less). I like ones that take AA or AAA batteries rather than rechargables. The hard-to-find feature I look for are ones with real on-off switches, like a volume knob that doubles as the on-off. Those actually disconnect all power when they're off. The ones that have push-button on-off switches have some little microprocessor running all the time, so they'll slowly kill their batteries.

Ham radio is a reasonably good option. It can get expensive, but you've got the ultimate flexibility.

And with Ham radio, if you buy the RIGHT radios, you can have a GMRS/Ham radio - the trick to this is to get a GMRS approved radio that can go into the ham band - NOT the other way around. Easiest way is to use commercial grade radios (aka things like GE/Erricson/Ma-com MPAs or MRKs or Motorola Sabres etc) - right now, they can be had cheap

As someone else already pointed out, those radios in the stores are likely 22-channel hybrid radios that operate both on the Family Radio Service and the General Mobile Radio Service. As GMRS radios, you do require a license from the FCC to operate them. That's $80 for a 5-year license that covers you and your family. If you want an inexpensive radio for just occasional use and want non-family members to use these radios (legally) with you, it may not make sense financially or hassle-wise to go this route.

For short range communication with people in your group, like around the campsite or car caravanning, as an alternative, I would suggest that you look for a 14-channel FRS-only radio. No license is required to use a FRS radio so there's no additional cost beyond batteries, and you can lend one to anyone without worrying if they have a license, too. Short range, they perform just as well as the hybrid radios, and even though hybrids use higher power, the actual range is not necessarily much farther than FRS in many circumstances. I stick to using FRS-only radios because they are license-free and meet my communication needs, particularly in making things easy for the other person to use a radio legally. If your spouse or friend that you want to talk with isn't willing to pay for a GMRS license, study for a HAM ticket, or doesn't want to bother with using call signs and using simple radio protocol, then GMRS or Amateur (HAM) radio isn't really an option and FRS fits the bill.

Unfortunately, FRS radios are all but extinct in retail stores because they are all discontinued (except for the high-end Icom IC-4088A's, I believe), but you can still find stores on the Internet and eBay that still have used or brand new units. Especially on eBay, the prices are inexpensive. You can search the eBay two-way radio listings here. When looking, remember that any ad that says "FRS/GMRS", 22-channel, or claims a range greater than 2 miles is not a FRS-only radio.

Cobra brand FRS radios are by far the most common ones on the Internet and eBay these days. Not sure why there's such a huge inventory of them still, and I don't have any personal experience with them. Personally, I dislike the way their FRS Microtalk's look anyway. Motorola's are usually a good bet, and unlike most Cobra radios, most Motorola's use 3AA rather than 3AAA for longer battery life and good for those of us who try to standardize our gear on one size of battery, like AA's. For solid, basic Motorola radios that can still be found easily, I would recommend the FR60 or the T5200, but any of their Talkabout series are fine, like the T250, but are harder to find brand new. I recently saw an eBay listing for a pair of FR60's for like $5. Kenwood's generally get very good reviews. Their UBZ-AL14 and AM14 are also good, basic radios but harder to find cheap than Cobra's or Motorola's. Hope that helps.

Don't get the old ones that only had 14 channels - make sure you get one of the newer ones that have sub-channels. Otherwise you will constantly get interrupted if your around a lot of other people.

I'm too cheap to get my own cell phone. (though I've got one for the wife) so we have used the T5200 Motorola for 3 or 4 years now. Not just camping/hiking as we use them in Wal-Mart & at amusement parks, etc. If whatever you get is really cheap & you're planning on using it a lot like we do then I would recommend getting 3, 4 or more of them. Reason is once the kids bounce them off the parking lot a couple times they will eventually stop working. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I don't recommend the Motorola FR50 or T5100 precisely because they don't have "sub-channels". Ugh, I hate how manufacturers want people to believe that their radios have hundreds of sub-channels. So misleading...

But that's a feature that many people really miss if they don't have it, so thanks for pointing that out.

There aren't any "sub-channels" in FRS/GMRS radios. There are frequencies and there are "interferance eliminator" codes.

The frequencies are as follows:

These seven frequencies (MHz) (channels) are shared between FRS & GMRS. An FRS-approved radio can only broadcast at max 0.5 Watt. Most hybrid radios broadcast on these frequencies at a higher power, which is why use of hybrid radios require a GMRS license:
1 462.5625
2 462.5875
3 462.6125
4 462.6375
5 462.6625
6 462.6875
7 462.7125

The next seven frequencies (channels) are for FRS use only. FRS radios can only broadcast at 0.5 Watts max. GMRS radios may not broadcast on these frequencies. Hybrid radios tend to broadcast on these frequencies at only 0.5 Watt.
8 467.5625
9 467.5875
10 467.6125
11 467.6350
12 467.6625
13 467.6875
14 467.7125

The following seven frequencies (channels) are for GMRS use only. FRS-approved radios will not broadcast on these frequencies. Hybrid radios can broadcast on these frequencies, which is also why a GMRS license is required.
15 462.5500
16 462.5750
17 462.6000
18 462.6250
19 462.6500
20 462.6750
21 462.7000
22 462.7250

Some feel that a hybrid FRS/GMRS radio CAN be used without a GMRS license if ONLY channels 8-14 are used for broadcasting. Last I had heard the FCC hasn't given a clear interpretation on this usage.

FRS radios tend to have 14 frequencies (channels) and nonremovable antennas.

GMRS radios tend to have 14 frequencies (channels). The first seven are the same as those on FRS radios. "Real" GMRS radios tend to have removable antennas.

Hybrid GMRS/FRS radios tend to have 21 frequencies (channels). Channels 1-7 and 15-21 tend to broadcast at higher power (1-2 Watts), while channels 14-20 tend to broadcast at 0.5 Watts or less. To my knowledge, all hybrid radios have non-removable antennas.

The interference eliminator codes work differently. A radio will only respond (play) if the broadcast also includes a particular eliminator code frequency. The idea is that if you are using frequency 1 (462.5625 MHz) with code 5. Your radio will only "play" broadcasts that are on frequency 1 with code 5. Other folks can use frequency 1 too, and if using a different code then you won't have to hear them talking. The problem is that you are both using frequency 1, so if you both try to broadcast at the same time then you will be interfering with each other (crosstalk). Some radios show a symbol on the display when the selected frequency is in use, even if on a different code, but few users look at the display before broadcasting. Less fancy radios require the user to press a monitor button to listen the the "raw" frequency and determine if anyone else is broadcasting attempting to broadcast. Most users don't do that either.

Many users recommend simply not using the codes at all (sometimes this can be done by setting the radio to code 0). This means you'll hear every broadcast on the frequency you're uisng, but the benefit is that there is little chance of broadcasting over another user (crosstalk).

Another thing to keep in mind when selecting a radio is that reception distance tends to be a factor of antenna height much more than of broadcast power (Wattage). GMRS users who want longer distance but cannot access a repeater will tend to raise a remote antenna high up in a tree or on top of a building and then connect to that antenna. Picture throwing a rope over a nearby tree and pulling an antenna high up a tree to act as a "base station". FRS and Hybrid users don't have that option, since their antennas are not removable.

It's crazy how wishy-washy the FCC regs are about these hybrid radios. The regs about GMRS radios are maddeningly unhelpful when it comes to hybrids, but I also look at it from the other side of the hybrid coin--the FRS side. The regs say that a radio type accepted exclusively for FRS does not require a license. Obviously, hybrids that can transmit on FRS and GMRS channels are not exclusively type accepted for FRS, therefore some other rule must apply to the operation of these hybrids, right? Well, the only "other" applicable rules are for GMRS. And the FCC regs do say that a radio operated under GMRS rules require a license. That's my logic anyways.

But then you run headlong into the contradictory situation that GMRS radios are not allowed to transmit on FRS-only channels. OK, you say, it's also a FRS radio. But it's not exclusively type accepted for FRS, so it can't be operated license-free. So what does that mean? Do you need some non-existent FRS license to use channels 8-14 on a hybrid? Oy, it makes your head spin.

For those who say you don't need a license if the person only uses non-GMRS channels, it's totally unrealistic to think that your average consumer is going to buy a 22-channel radio that claims an 18-mile range and then voluntarily limit themselves to just 7 low-power channels, knowing that 99% of them don't want to voluntarily purchase an $80 license. Besides, the same 99% of them won't even look at the manual to know which of the 22 channels are the FRS-only ones! It's like selling an assault rifle capable of full auto to any Joe Blow off the street and telling him that no licensing and background check is required by the government if he refrains from flipping up that little lever on the side that makes it fire full auto.

As far as the manufacturers go, at least Motorola's website clearly states that their hybrid radios are GMRS radios and require a license. I looked at Cobra's website and in the extensive descriptions of each radio, they bury one little line about how FCC licensing info can be found in the manual. So I downloaded one of the manuals and Cobra's stand is that no license is required if you only use FRS channel 8-14. YMMV

Excellent points!!!

Here is a good article that addresses the FCC-created hybrid mess - at least that's the view of us GMRS licensees.

http://www.popularwireless.com/gmrsbppfaq.html

Ken K.

FWIW, after doing some research about GRMS radios, I decided the Icom IC-F21GM Radio with the optional P-208 AA battery pack was the best compromise. Better than average quality, but not super expensive. Just go ahead and get your GRMS license. It's only $80 (IIRC) and covers your family. It is not locked to any specific radio.

-john

I have a Garmin Rino GPS/Radio that has both FRS and GMRS channels. I may be criticized for saying this but I am not going to buy an $80 license on the off-chance that I may have to use GMRS sometime in the future. If I do use it it will be an emergency, and in that case the Black Helicopters of the FCC are more than welcome to come and snatch me up. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I suppose if you aren't going actually use the radio your approach makes sense. But otherwise, why buy a 4/5W radio that you can only use .5W?

-john

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what your question is. Legality aside, as far as I know nothing is preventing me from using any of the channels. I bought my unit primarily for the GPS but also occasionally use the FRS to keep in touch with my hunting buddies. The GMRS capability is there in the unlikely event that I need more range. I'm thinking you would be reasonably safe from prosecution using GMRS without a license in an emergency--at least I would hope so. But if not it is still a fair trade.

The "true emergency" angle is a big trump card in the licensing discussion and there's not much argument against that. And I can certainly see the logic in those who say no license is required if only FRS-only channels are used. If someone is educated enough about the topic to knowledgably defend that claim using the flawed FCC regs, then I respect that.

Do you have a Rino 5xx? Nice unit. And it's even a "more real" GMRS radio compared to the "bubblepack" hybrids because it has the full complement of 22 FRS/GMRS channels, plus the 8 GMRS repeater frequency pairs. (But a non-detachable antenna) If that's not a GMRS radio, then I don't know what is. I noticed that the FCC licensing info is buried way back on page 113 of the Rino manual. What average person is going to get that far in the manual, or even care at that point?

I don't blame users so much as I blame manufacturers and the FCC for letting this mess happen. I know, a somewhat esoteric, niche mess, but a mess nonetheless. I just thought of another analogy besides my full auto one.

Picture this: It's like taking a powerful prescription-only medication like Oxycontin, but then the drug company combines it with an over-the-counter medication like Tylenol so that it can advertise the new combo pill as being really good for pain and making you feel better--much better than plain old Tylenol. Then they convince the FDA to let them sell the pill over-the-counter to anyone who wants it. Hey, folks! Buy my pill! Powerful pain-killing effect! No prescription necessary! Not surprisingly, it sells like hot cakes and with such high volume, prices come way down compared to prescription Oxy and the company even stops making plain old Tylenol to concentrate on this new combo pill. But note the details: Inside each box is a microscopic-print package insert telling users that if they use a pill splitter to break the tablet and only take the Tylenol half, then they don't need a prescription. But if the buyer wants to take the Oxycontin, then they first need to go get a prescription from their doctor before they can swallow the tablet. Ridiculous sounding, isn't it? Who's going to do that? But as I see it, that's basically the current legal and economic situation with these FRS/GMRS hybrids today and the confusing situation that consumers find themselves in.

You're mixing apples and oranges.

The wattage tells you how much power the radio transmits with. It tells you absolutely nothing about its reception.

However, the more power the guy you're talking to is transmitting with, the more likely you are to hear him, generally speaking.

Now, I'm putting on my Nomex flame-proof suit for my next comment.

The consumer-grade of these radios are toys, period. Their antennas tend to have negative gain (they are what's called a "dummy load") and are generally not replaceable. Antennas are among the most important component on a radio. I can hit distant repeaters on 1 watt with a good antenna that are unreachable with 5 watts and a crummy one.

They also have a vast array of incompatiable subaudiable tones for "privacy" (they have no privacy) and their marketing is full of outright lies. And they almost never, if ever, come even remotely close to their advertised range, even given the most perfect environmental conditions.

I think these radios are great for kids to play with or for communicating between cars following one another on the highway, but outside of very limited domains, I think the consumer models of these radios should be absolutely avoided for any serious purpose.

If you really want one, get the professional GMRS models made by Motorola, not the ones you'll find at Walmart. I believe someone recomended some models earlier in this thread.

I think your analogy is a good one. I remember reading the license warning when I was buying the unit, but to be honest I wasn't overly concerned with it since I knew I'd rarely, if ever, use those channels. It's like buying a Viper--"of course I'll never exceed the posted speed limit. No sir. Not me." <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'm not familiar with the 5xx. I just have the 110. It's pretty basic but it gets me there and back again. Even it has more features than I'll ever use.

So will the HAM radio features be different than the walkie talkie features on NEXTEL phones?