Three words for you, Jim:

LEAVE.
IT.
HOME.


Why in the world would you want to teach kids to be sloppy and stupid? It's like teaching navigation with a GPS before they've ever even seen a compass and map.

Cell phones don't always work. Depending on your terrain, you might be in a blind spot. And it is actually possible to just be out of range. Along with all the other issues, like parents not wanting thier kids to have cell phones.

Personally, as part of an USK and as urban EDC, I feel cells have they have thier place. As part of a car kit, certainly. But don't depend on it, ever, they die too easy.

And I admit to having a small anger management issue towards people who's total PSK is a cell phone. In some parts of the US, they charge morons who bite off more than they can chew and then expect to be saved becuase they make a phone call. In the places that don't, I understand that a lot of SAR groups would like to be able to. Personally, if you are underequipped and didn't plan, and expect a cell phone bail you out, I feel you that since thinking and carrying the right equipment was incovenient for you, finding you should be at the convience of the searchers.

The things make people complacent and careless. I swear, if you have a cell phone with you in the wilderness, even the most experinced people I know who are under 50 suddenly loose about 20 IQ points. The older guys are fine, they remember when it didn't take an hour to get an ambulance to some of the place I go becuase there was no ambulance in this area even in town. But the rest, they get dumb, they take chances they wouldn't if they knew they were on thier own. They take stuff out of thier packs, like extra water and emergency food, the spare thermal layer, all fairly critical stuff, becuase they have thier cell phone. They at least have thier skills to fall back on; most people don't.

I suppose if I had to look at this issue from a positive light, I suppose that Darwin's Mighty Chainsaw could theoretically shapeshift into a cell phone.

Oh, and 98.6 degrees Farenhiet (sp) is human body core temp.

Besides,
How many 5th graders have, or should have a cell phone?

If you do take a cell:phone on a hike, turn it off, or leave it on silent. Last thing I want to hear while hiking is a $%^&^% cell phone ringing, or hear and see someone on a cell phone yammering away. <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

While I agree that the leader should have a cell phone for bonafide emergencies, teaching scouts to be self-reliant means teaching them to bring the gear they need and planning ahead. Going to a cell phone at the first problem is a good way to teach them that they are not responsible for themselves -- just the opposite of what Boy Scouts should teach.

I suppose a PLB is a stupid idea?!? Survival means using every tool at your disposal. I agree that people should not depend (or be taught to depend) on a cell phone and should develop core skills. Maybe we should stop carrying lighters, matches, and ferrocerium rods. Nothing but a shoe string (and that's cheatin') to make a fire bow because a lighter might not work every time. Don't rely on any one tool, but don't pass up one either if it is available and easy to carry.

Development and teaching of core skills is crucial, but omitting a modern tool is careless when talking about a bunch of Cub Scouts. These are Cubs, and as with animal cubs need to be taught and protected by their sires and elders. If they were in a rough spot I would much rather they have a working cell phone than not; if the cell phone didn't work, I would want them to have as much knowledge as possible to survive on their own. When dealing with kids, especially someone else's, bringing them home is the main goal. When they are older scouts they can go out and put themselves to the test, after they have developed enough proven skills. I would make a rule, though, that any scout using their phone to receive calls or chat would not be allowed on the next outing.

I carry a phone all the time now when I hike, turned off in a waterproof bag. It never gets used but it is there with my other survival gear, most of which has never been used in an emergency either.

You've just said exactly what I was thinking. There's an old saying " When in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout." A cellphone lets them scream. Being lost is frightening enough for 6' of mean. How much more frightened do you think a 5th grader is going to be? Look at it as a chance to teach them how to use a cellphone in responsible fashion. If I was leading that group, I wouldn't turn down a Sat-Phone either.

My Weblo scout just left for camp. I tried to follow the basics and double ziplocked the following kit from things at home before he left. Anything he has, he knows how to use.

*Camillus Boy Scout Lockback Folding Hunter - he does know how to use it safely. Has an official sheath (cordura) and I made him a functional, adjustable, bright orange lanyard tied with a Reeve coil. In my "everybody-has-one" opinion, SAKs and non-lockers are dangerous for kids (and some grown-ups).
*Matches in orange waterproof container
*PJ-soaked cotton balls in orange waterproof container.
*Large garbage bag wrapped compact with rubberband
*Large bright red bandanna (didn't have orange)
*25 ft of 15 lb. test line w/ 5 hooks and 5 sinkers - in a pill dose size ziplock - kids should already know how to fish with this
*Candle stub wrapped in aluminum foil - pill size ziplock
*Bandaids, adhesive sutures, anitseptic wipes in pill size ziplock
*Silva map compass and I told him to ask (demand) for a map.
*Pealess, orange safety whistle w/ lanyard
*Signal mirror
*P-52 can opener on keyring
*Canteen full of water
*Space blanket in a ziplock
*AA flashlight in ziplock
*4 large safety pins in pill zip lock
*2 large rubber bands
*10 ft of mason string
* 2 - 3 feet of 1 inch wide duct tape wrapped on tiny rod
* fresnel lens

He will carry it all on a hike. Whistle around his neck. Knife on belt. Everything except canteen into a waist pack.

You did great Dad!!!!

Some thoughts ...
-Hopefully he has rain gear
-Hopefully he has a warm jacket (fleece?)
-I might have added some 4" & 3" gauze pads to his FAK - mostly to handle big knee scrapes; he's already got the duct tape. I find a small pack of baby wipes useful for cleaning wounds when soap isn't available.
-Hat, Sunscreen, & Lip balm
-Insect Repellant

Yep, I did omit to list that I put a couple of gauze pads in the little FAK. Jacket (Gee, only 100 deg F here right now), poncho, chapstick, sunscreen, repel, and BIG hat, are all norms required by his Mom.

I don't know that I would be quite so hard on poor Jim. A Cell Phone certainly has it's place and for MOST americans, it IS the only thing they have for emergencies. But I remember when my wife (then my girlfriend) got a bag phone for her car when a girl disappeared on the same highway she took to college. There are times when Cell Phones truly serve a purpose other than annoying the crap out of us at restaurants, theaters, in lines, and even in school. I've seen PLENTY of 5th graders with cell phones (usually better than the one I have!) and as long as the scouts had them packed away with the batteries charged, but turned off, I see no problem with including them in their gear. I can think of a lot of situations where this would be FAR better than other outcomes and at that age, sometimes fear overwhelmes reason pretty easily and just knowing they have it could be helpful.

True that the signal might not reach them and the whole excursion shouldn't ever touch the cell except in an emergency, they should still be informed of their usefulness and the rules of engagement for using them. And with the GPS tracker units in them now, if they can get to high ground and get a signal even for a brief moment, they might be able to send their location to the cell company. Or maybe get out a text message.

I assure you that when my little scout grows old enough to be out there, he'll be trained in using it properly and have one with him. It's a tool, just like a whistle, a knife, or a firestarter. Used improperly, it can be painful. Used with care and training, and the understanding that it might not always work, I think it's useful.

In fact, I'd use it as a training exercise since you could show them that they can get their little tails out of trouble without relying on others and show them how to think and why it's important even WITH a cell phone.

Also I think he didn't know 98.6 since it's in F and not C. Silly Imperial measurements. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

For most people, yes, a PLB is a bad idea in my opinion. They have thier place, but if that is ALL you ever have, I'm not going to feel bad about whatever happened to you. PLBs, based on thier very nature, are best for things like aircraft, boats, and those who are going into the back of beyond. You know, places where there are usually only two ways in- by air, or walking/sailing a few days.

There is an old expression- failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. People are used to thier movies on demand and thier 20 minutes or its free pizza delivery. That's the kind of mentality that I see over and over when someone has a cell phone in the woods. The "Oh, if I get hurt, I'll call 911" theory is great if you are someplace where it works, like a metropolitan center. And if you are taking kids on a camping trip in Central Park, maybe it is valid. Where I camp, and where they take scouts around here, it isn't. Even if you were in range of the nearest cell towers, you have no LOS.

My opinions are based on having spent my life in a place where that idea doesn't work with landlines. YES, you do shout for help, but don't be suprised if you have to make due with just you, yourself and thou for a while before the cavalry shows up. If you can't, welcome to Statisticsville. That's why I am opposed to the complacency and unwillingness to manage your own life that seems to be a side effect of being able to push a button on a cell phone to summon help.

But that kind of mentality is the part of why todays children are, by the standard of a lot of us, screwed up. They are used to being able to shout for help and a "trained professional" will be there in minutes to bail them out. A cell or a radio for a leader, that's fine, as a back up. I'd recommend that strongly for the reasons you state and some you didn't. But a cell as a standard part of a kit, no, and absolutely NOT in the kit during a controlled and managed exercise being conducted for the purposes of actually teaching kids something more that praying to the radio gods for salvation.

Case in point- back a few weeks ago, I was in an outdoor store. It's only a few hours from here to Mt Washington by road. Some fool flatlander was buying boots to hike Washington. It isn't a super hard hike if you are in shape, but when the clerk asked this fellow if he had a back up plan, the fool pulled out his cell phone. Me and the guy behind the counter have known eachother for a long time. He can't laugh or he'd get fired; I could after asking a few more questions. New boots, no map, no sleeping bag, no shelter, no stove, but he had his cell and ipod. For those who don't know Washington, there isn't much shelter or natural fuel after about the halfway point, and it probably has the worst weather east of the Mississippi The rain that most of us have been getting in New England has been off and on freezing rain up at the top of Washington, with highs in the 40s at the peak. Now, it isn't a technical climb- you can follow the road, there is one that goes all the way to the top (and back down, if your brakes are good). But it is long, and you are exposed almost the entire way, and there isn't a lot of traffic on that road.

This clown was probably fine for a little day trek someplace were you can dial 911 and have a broken leg under an x-ray in under an hour. On Washington, forget it. I haven't heard of anyone going missing in the past few weeks. Maybe he got a clue after being mocked; maybe he has friends who bought him one. Maybe he got a quarter of the way up, decided that Washington was more than he could deal with. Maybe someone saw him with his thumb out on the side of the road and took pity on him. Maybe he scrubbed becuase it is the middle of the rainy season. Maybe he didn't tell anyone his plans and the mountains claimed him. I dont' know; I do know that he wasn't equipped last I saw him.

From the way I understood Jim's post, I thought that what he was suggesting was that every kid have a phone. And if I misunderstood, I'm sorry, Jim. But I stand by my claim that cell phones have no business being on in the woods or as part of the core equipment for emergencies. They are not reliable- if it has batteries or takes fuel, it will eventually fail you in a situation where that failure will kill you if you don't have a back up.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just a dumb country boy with an engineering degree that was heavy on communications and electronics as part of the minor. No, I wouldn't know anything about cell phones and thier malfunctions other than my lack of trust of any of the unholy contraptions of these new fangled times.