Fist off, I want to say thanks to everyone here for sharing. I have been lurking for awhile and have learned a lot from this forum.
So here is my fist post.

Background: I am the Cubmaster for the local Cub Scout Pack and am attending our Webelos (5 graders) over night. I am leading the hike this Saturday and working with them on their Naturalist and Forester requirements.

Before the hike, I want to give a brief talk on being prepared and what they should carry.
Here is what I am planning to discuss but I am posting here for your comments if there is anything else I should mention.

-Rule of 3 (you can survive is bad weather for 3 hrs, you can survive without water for 3 day, you can survive 3 weeks without food).
-Water, try to take more than you think you will need
-SAK (must have earned the Whittlin’ Chip (a Scout requirement for caring a knife)
-a PSK (Whistle, band-aids, duck tape, mason string, a LED flashlight, safety pins, etc)
-hat and bandanna
-garbage bag or poncho
-go hiking with a buddy, two buddies would be better
-map and compass; know how to use them
-if you get lost, think S.T.O.P. –use whistle (3 blasts) use garbage/poncho for shelter, protect 98.6

Is there anything else I should mention?
Thanks in advance for your comments,
Dave

Rule #1: Always listen to your Scoutmaster.
Rule #2: When in doubt, refer to rule #1.

The whole purpose of this is to teach them how to be on their own and be responsible for themselves. Actually tell them that, and perhaps it'll sink in and they'll go back home with more than just the skills you taught them.

Remind them that the only stupid question is one that isn't asked. In other words: if you don't know or ain't certain, ask! I would also suggest that you show, tell, demonstrate etc and get them to practice before you do the hike. An emergency is not the best place to learn.

Tell them upfront that if they get lost: "STAY PUT!!!!". Young people, (and some adults too), are mortally afraid of being ridiculed by their peers. So afraid in fact that they will blindly stumble about lost, hoping against hope that they will somehow find their way out. All the while of course they are only getting themselves deeper into trouble. Let them know that if they happen to get lost there will be no laughter once they are found, and make sure that everybody knows this rule will be enforced! <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />(stern face.)

Hope you have a great time hiking. I go with our Scout troop about once a month, and it gets easier after a while, really <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A couple thoughts on the list you had:
- Although you don't necessarily "need" food for a short day hike, I would suggest you always bring some. The water is more important obviously, and you have it covered. The food is more for a psychological boost on a day hike, especially if you have a steep area, or a rough stretch of weather. Also, it's nice when you reach a goal, like a summit, or are just taking a break, to pull out an energy bar, some trail mix, or pemicin. Trust me, you'll have more fun hikes if they all have some simple snacks. On longer hikes in cool weather, we make sure they all bring a cup, and one of us adults brings a lightweight stove to heat up water for cocoa.

- You mentioned a poncho or garbage bag, I would also recommend that they bring or wear an insulating layer, like a fleece jacket or pullover.

- Along the same lines, make sure they all are wearing clothing appropriate for the conditions. If you're hiking, make sure they have reasonable hiking boots, with decent wool/synthetic hiking socks, not cotton athletic socks. Liners are great too, and will help avoid the blisters for the newbies.

- Insect repellant is pretty important in some areas. In the northeast, we have mosquitos and ticks to contend with. It can really put a damper on your trip if you don't have it. You can lather them up before the trip, and then have them carry a couple of the insect repellant towelettes to refresh after a lot of sweating.

- Sunscreen and sunglasses, if appropriate for your conditions.

- Make sure that they have some blister related items in their FAK, like moleskin.

- You might want to have one or two people, or a leader, carry some sort of bivy sack. If one of the boys falls into the water, or should get hurt and need to be still until you can get help, it's good to be able to keep them warm.

I'll think about it more, but, those are things that come to mind right away. Have a great trip!

It looks like you have covered the basics. A few Q's come to mind:
How long before the hike will you be giving this talk? Will the kids be able to change the stuff they're carrying? If you give the talk just before you start walking it may be too late to change what's in their pack. If you give it after you've left for the overnight it will be difficult to change out those cotton socks for wool or to grab a sweater they thought wouldn't be needed.

Have subjects like navigation already been taught at the Webelo level, or is the knowledge about how to use a compass and map a prerequisite for the hike? Knowing how to use a map and compass is easier said. . .

It's been a long time since I was in the scouts.

You've got a good list there. Maybe add direction-finding without a compass (using a watch dial or sticks and shadows). Something else to consider is what not to take. When we went to Philmont (Scout Ranch in New Mexico for the non-scouts among us), before we left on our week-long trek, we had to empty the contents of our packs out on our ground sheet. The leaders helped us get rid of the things that we wouldn't need. All of us ended up taking along some things that we were told we wouldn't need (too many socks and underwear, etc) and we suffered for that decision. Having a backpack that's too heavy equals lots of complaining and discomfort no matter how short the hike. Kinds gets in the way of learning anything. Emphasize minimalism and creativity in packing, kind of like the amazingly small, yet capable PSKs some of the members have shared on this forum. Oh yeah, one more thing that really works great...reward them for something they observe (finding an animal track, identifying an edible plant, pointing out poison ivy, etc) by tossing them a ziploc of homemade GORP. It's amazing how much attention to their surroundings they pay! Have a great time!

For gear, start with the Scout Outdoor Essentials listed on page 224 of the Boy Scout Handbook:
<>Pocketknife
<>First aid kit
<>Extra clothing
<>Rain gear
<>Water bottle, filled!!
<>Flashlight
<>Trail food
<>Matches & Fire starters
<>Sun protection
<>Map & Compass

In addition I'd include:
<>Whistle on a lanyard
<>Insect repellant
<>1/2 roll of Toilet Paper in bag
<>Something bright orange for signaling - this can be an orange trash bag, an large orange bandanna, etc... A lost Scout huddling under his dark green poncho can be VERY hard to find without some kind of bright flag displayed.

The pocketknife can be stowed in their bag and left there if they don't have their Whittling Chip card. I personally like boys to have two knives - one Swiss Army Knife with scissors and a locking blade knife. Personal first aid kit contents are described on page 289 of the Boy Scout Handbook. For Webelos you wait on the mouth barrier and eye protection. As mentioned by someone else, extra clothing should include a synthetic jacket and hat - enough to get someone through the night if needed. For a young Scout a nylon (not plastic) poncho such as those available from Campmor.com is fine. The water bottle(s) should provide at least one quart of water and be filled BEFORE leaving home. The flashlight (AA-sized) should have new batteries or extra new batteries should be carried too. Trail food is important on a hike - bring enough for a snack plus extra if needed. Matches and fire starters should be stored in a waterproof container (doubled ziploc bags). Sun protection should include a brimmed hat, sunscreen, and lip balm. A very simple baseplate compass is sufficient for Scouting, though in many parts of the country adjustable declination is very useful. Leaders should provide each Scout with a map of the area before heading out, unless other arrangements are made ahead of time. Even simple park maps are better than nothing. Make sure the whistle is on some kind of lanyard. Check with your local highway department for orange plastic bags - they are great!

As others have said, the most critical thing to teach them is to be ready to accept that they are lost and to stop, put out the signal flag, and stay put - help will be on the way soon.

The Scouts need to be told to have fun, keep their essential gear at hand at all times, to use the buddy system, and to let leaders know where they are at all times. Leaders need teach the Scouts, enforce expectations (the essential gear does no good sitting inside the tent), and take headcounts on a regular basis.

Ken K.
(4 years Cubmaster, 5 years Den Leader, and now an Asst. Scoutmaster)

Two words:

CELL PHONE!!!



What is that?

Three words for you, Jim:

LEAVE.
IT.
HOME.


Why in the world would you want to teach kids to be sloppy and stupid? It's like teaching navigation with a GPS before they've ever even seen a compass and map.

Cell phones don't always work. Depending on your terrain, you might be in a blind spot. And it is actually possible to just be out of range. Along with all the other issues, like parents not wanting thier kids to have cell phones.

Personally, as part of an USK and as urban EDC, I feel cells have they have thier place. As part of a car kit, certainly. But don't depend on it, ever, they die too easy.

And I admit to having a small anger management issue towards people who's total PSK is a cell phone. In some parts of the US, they charge morons who bite off more than they can chew and then expect to be saved becuase they make a phone call. In the places that don't, I understand that a lot of SAR groups would like to be able to. Personally, if you are underequipped and didn't plan, and expect a cell phone bail you out, I feel you that since thinking and carrying the right equipment was incovenient for you, finding you should be at the convience of the searchers.

The things make people complacent and careless. I swear, if you have a cell phone with you in the wilderness, even the most experinced people I know who are under 50 suddenly loose about 20 IQ points. The older guys are fine, they remember when it didn't take an hour to get an ambulance to some of the place I go becuase there was no ambulance in this area even in town. But the rest, they get dumb, they take chances they wouldn't if they knew they were on thier own. They take stuff out of thier packs, like extra water and emergency food, the spare thermal layer, all fairly critical stuff, becuase they have thier cell phone. They at least have thier skills to fall back on; most people don't.

I suppose if I had to look at this issue from a positive light, I suppose that Darwin's Mighty Chainsaw could theoretically shapeshift into a cell phone.

Oh, and 98.6 degrees Farenhiet (sp) is human body core temp.

Besides,
How many 5th graders have, or should have a cell phone?

If you do take a cell:phone on a hike, turn it off, or leave it on silent. Last thing I want to hear while hiking is a $%^&^% cell phone ringing, or hear and see someone on a cell phone yammering away. <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

While I agree that the leader should have a cell phone for bonafide emergencies, teaching scouts to be self-reliant means teaching them to bring the gear they need and planning ahead. Going to a cell phone at the first problem is a good way to teach them that they are not responsible for themselves -- just the opposite of what Boy Scouts should teach.

I suppose a PLB is a stupid idea?!? Survival means using every tool at your disposal. I agree that people should not depend (or be taught to depend) on a cell phone and should develop core skills. Maybe we should stop carrying lighters, matches, and ferrocerium rods. Nothing but a shoe string (and that's cheatin') to make a fire bow because a lighter might not work every time. Don't rely on any one tool, but don't pass up one either if it is available and easy to carry.

Development and teaching of core skills is crucial, but omitting a modern tool is careless when talking about a bunch of Cub Scouts. These are Cubs, and as with animal cubs need to be taught and protected by their sires and elders. If they were in a rough spot I would much rather they have a working cell phone than not; if the cell phone didn't work, I would want them to have as much knowledge as possible to survive on their own. When dealing with kids, especially someone else's, bringing them home is the main goal. When they are older scouts they can go out and put themselves to the test, after they have developed enough proven skills. I would make a rule, though, that any scout using their phone to receive calls or chat would not be allowed on the next outing.

I carry a phone all the time now when I hike, turned off in a waterproof bag. It never gets used but it is there with my other survival gear, most of which has never been used in an emergency either.

You've just said exactly what I was thinking. There's an old saying " When in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout." A cellphone lets them scream. Being lost is frightening enough for 6' of mean. How much more frightened do you think a 5th grader is going to be? Look at it as a chance to teach them how to use a cellphone in responsible fashion. If I was leading that group, I wouldn't turn down a Sat-Phone either.

My Weblo scout just left for camp. I tried to follow the basics and double ziplocked the following kit from things at home before he left. Anything he has, he knows how to use.

*Camillus Boy Scout Lockback Folding Hunter - he does know how to use it safely. Has an official sheath (cordura) and I made him a functional, adjustable, bright orange lanyard tied with a Reeve coil. In my "everybody-has-one" opinion, SAKs and non-lockers are dangerous for kids (and some grown-ups).
*Matches in orange waterproof container
*PJ-soaked cotton balls in orange waterproof container.
*Large garbage bag wrapped compact with rubberband
*Large bright red bandanna (didn't have orange)
*25 ft of 15 lb. test line w/ 5 hooks and 5 sinkers - in a pill dose size ziplock - kids should already know how to fish with this
*Candle stub wrapped in aluminum foil - pill size ziplock
*Bandaids, adhesive sutures, anitseptic wipes in pill size ziplock
*Silva map compass and I told him to ask (demand) for a map.
*Pealess, orange safety whistle w/ lanyard
*Signal mirror
*P-52 can opener on keyring
*Canteen full of water
*Space blanket in a ziplock
*AA flashlight in ziplock
*4 large safety pins in pill zip lock
*2 large rubber bands
*10 ft of mason string
* 2 - 3 feet of 1 inch wide duct tape wrapped on tiny rod
* fresnel lens

He will carry it all on a hike. Whistle around his neck. Knife on belt. Everything except canteen into a waist pack.

You did great Dad!!!!

Some thoughts ...
-Hopefully he has rain gear
-Hopefully he has a warm jacket (fleece?)
-I might have added some 4" & 3" gauze pads to his FAK - mostly to handle big knee scrapes; he's already got the duct tape. I find a small pack of baby wipes useful for cleaning wounds when soap isn't available.
-Hat, Sunscreen, & Lip balm
-Insect Repellant

Yep, I did omit to list that I put a couple of gauze pads in the little FAK. Jacket (Gee, only 100 deg F here right now), poncho, chapstick, sunscreen, repel, and BIG hat, are all norms required by his Mom.

I don't know that I would be quite so hard on poor Jim. A Cell Phone certainly has it's place and for MOST americans, it IS the only thing they have for emergencies. But I remember when my wife (then my girlfriend) got a bag phone for her car when a girl disappeared on the same highway she took to college. There are times when Cell Phones truly serve a purpose other than annoying the crap out of us at restaurants, theaters, in lines, and even in school. I've seen PLENTY of 5th graders with cell phones (usually better than the one I have!) and as long as the scouts had them packed away with the batteries charged, but turned off, I see no problem with including them in their gear. I can think of a lot of situations where this would be FAR better than other outcomes and at that age, sometimes fear overwhelmes reason pretty easily and just knowing they have it could be helpful.

True that the signal might not reach them and the whole excursion shouldn't ever touch the cell except in an emergency, they should still be informed of their usefulness and the rules of engagement for using them. And with the GPS tracker units in them now, if they can get to high ground and get a signal even for a brief moment, they might be able to send their location to the cell company. Or maybe get out a text message.

I assure you that when my little scout grows old enough to be out there, he'll be trained in using it properly and have one with him. It's a tool, just like a whistle, a knife, or a firestarter. Used improperly, it can be painful. Used with care and training, and the understanding that it might not always work, I think it's useful.

In fact, I'd use it as a training exercise since you could show them that they can get their little tails out of trouble without relying on others and show them how to think and why it's important even WITH a cell phone.

Also I think he didn't know 98.6 since it's in F and not C. Silly Imperial measurements. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

For most people, yes, a PLB is a bad idea in my opinion. They have thier place, but if that is ALL you ever have, I'm not going to feel bad about whatever happened to you. PLBs, based on thier very nature, are best for things like aircraft, boats, and those who are going into the back of beyond. You know, places where there are usually only two ways in- by air, or walking/sailing a few days.

There is an old expression- failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. People are used to thier movies on demand and thier 20 minutes or its free pizza delivery. That's the kind of mentality that I see over and over when someone has a cell phone in the woods. The "Oh, if I get hurt, I'll call 911" theory is great if you are someplace where it works, like a metropolitan center. And if you are taking kids on a camping trip in Central Park, maybe it is valid. Where I camp, and where they take scouts around here, it isn't. Even if you were in range of the nearest cell towers, you have no LOS.

My opinions are based on having spent my life in a place where that idea doesn't work with landlines. YES, you do shout for help, but don't be suprised if you have to make due with just you, yourself and thou for a while before the cavalry shows up. If you can't, welcome to Statisticsville. That's why I am opposed to the complacency and unwillingness to manage your own life that seems to be a side effect of being able to push a button on a cell phone to summon help.

But that kind of mentality is the part of why todays children are, by the standard of a lot of us, screwed up. They are used to being able to shout for help and a "trained professional" will be there in minutes to bail them out. A cell or a radio for a leader, that's fine, as a back up. I'd recommend that strongly for the reasons you state and some you didn't. But a cell as a standard part of a kit, no, and absolutely NOT in the kit during a controlled and managed exercise being conducted for the purposes of actually teaching kids something more that praying to the radio gods for salvation.

Case in point- back a few weeks ago, I was in an outdoor store. It's only a few hours from here to Mt Washington by road. Some fool flatlander was buying boots to hike Washington. It isn't a super hard hike if you are in shape, but when the clerk asked this fellow if he had a back up plan, the fool pulled out his cell phone. Me and the guy behind the counter have known eachother for a long time. He can't laugh or he'd get fired; I could after asking a few more questions. New boots, no map, no sleeping bag, no shelter, no stove, but he had his cell and ipod. For those who don't know Washington, there isn't much shelter or natural fuel after about the halfway point, and it probably has the worst weather east of the Mississippi The rain that most of us have been getting in New England has been off and on freezing rain up at the top of Washington, with highs in the 40s at the peak. Now, it isn't a technical climb- you can follow the road, there is one that goes all the way to the top (and back down, if your brakes are good). But it is long, and you are exposed almost the entire way, and there isn't a lot of traffic on that road.

This clown was probably fine for a little day trek someplace were you can dial 911 and have a broken leg under an x-ray in under an hour. On Washington, forget it. I haven't heard of anyone going missing in the past few weeks. Maybe he got a clue after being mocked; maybe he has friends who bought him one. Maybe he got a quarter of the way up, decided that Washington was more than he could deal with. Maybe someone saw him with his thumb out on the side of the road and took pity on him. Maybe he scrubbed becuase it is the middle of the rainy season. Maybe he didn't tell anyone his plans and the mountains claimed him. I dont' know; I do know that he wasn't equipped last I saw him.

From the way I understood Jim's post, I thought that what he was suggesting was that every kid have a phone. And if I misunderstood, I'm sorry, Jim. But I stand by my claim that cell phones have no business being on in the woods or as part of the core equipment for emergencies. They are not reliable- if it has batteries or takes fuel, it will eventually fail you in a situation where that failure will kill you if you don't have a back up.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just a dumb country boy with an engineering degree that was heavy on communications and electronics as part of the minor. No, I wouldn't know anything about cell phones and thier malfunctions other than my lack of trust of any of the unholy contraptions of these new fangled times.

The old "when in danger" quote is such a bad idea. I've long suspected that it was rather tounge in cheek from someone who didn't much like the clueless.

Running circles wastes energy. Running in rough terrain is a bad idea period unless speed is critical and only if you know the terrain- remember, fast is slow, smooth is quick. Instead, if you are misplaced, sit down and think.

Screaming and shouting might have a small statistical probability of attracting attention after the first few shouts of "Hey, guys!", but after that, it will reenforce the panic. Instead, listen to see if you can hear anything and THEN sound off. Or better yet, blow a whistle or at least bang some rocks together or thump a hollow log with your walking stick.

All panic and waste of energy do is make your mental and physical condition worse and suck up time that would have been better spent doing something constructive. If you want to teach kids how to be a sacrfice to Darwin, feel free. I'd rather teach them something useful. I think I'd start with "STOP". Or maybe "Don't Panic".

Or show them a picture Otzi, and point out that if they don't listen up and get thier brains in the game, in a few hundred years, if they are lucky, they might look that good. Then run down the list what he had, and what they have that is equivelent. Other than body armour, he had everything he needed on his last day.

I would counter that with people with cell phones are more likely to be careless. They do amazing things. They decide that is it too hot to carry all that extra water. They choose to take extra rolls of film, rather than thier blood sugar kit. They take the ski trail that is a little out of thier league. They climb down the cliff to check out the spiffy rock, even though they've never been on a rope in thier life and don't have one. They don't turn back when the weather suddenly does something that was unexpected. They try to hug the pretty moose while thier husband takes the picture. They go kayaking in the rain, after two weeks of rain. They don't take spare clothes, extra gas or spare parts for thier snowmobile for a night run when it is expected that it will drop to -40.

All these are true stories, taken from newspapers in Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine over the past few years.

They got dumb. These people are not of the utterly clueless. Many of them are experinced outdoors people. Some of them have taken the survival courses that various agencies and schools offer. Many of them are well educated. None of these stories were about people who were mentally handicapped or intoxicated. Only the moose hugger was displaying an utter lack of understanding.

All of them had a cell phone, though. They had it for "emergencies"; in most of these cases, the folks were quoted as saying they thought they were safe, they had thier phone. People are too used to thinking that the cell phone is a safety line. It isn't. It is a collection of parts made in the third world controlled by firmware written by the lowest bidder that needs batteries that historically have really spotty quality control and functions by line of sight over relatively short range. In a smaller sentance, it's a gizmo of questionable pedigree. Any "safety" it provides is an illusion.

Take a look at Ors' post about the miniskirt. She had a cell phone. She'd always been able to call for help. She'd never had to do anything for herself. She'd never had to think, or learn from her actions. So she endangered herself, a few hundred strangers, and our friend. But she could dial a cell phone, so in her mind, she was safe.

If you think you have a safety net, you are more likely to take risks. That is a documented function of human psychology- people take more risks if they think they will be safe, it's like the magic feather. You gamble all you can, that's the way humans are. With this roll, it isn't just your own life you are throwing the dice on. In most of those situations, bystanders or emergency people were endangered by this cell phone induced stupidity. In some of those stories, they were hurt; in one, someone other than the silly person died.

If I shoot myself in the foot becuase I decock a single action and my thumb slips, that's one thing. If I shoot someone else becuase I didn't know it was loaded and wasn't practicing muzzle control, that's another. I see no difference between that, and being stupid becuase you have a cell phone. It is sloppiness of thought, carelessness. And an utter lack of respect for yourself, for your fellow man, and for Nature.

And I'm just at a loss how you can get yourself out of trouble with a cellphone without relying on others.

QUOTE: "one more thing that really works great...reward them for something they observe (finding an animal track, identifying an edible plant, pointing out poison ivy, etc) by tossing them a ziploc of homemade GORP. It's amazing how much attention to their surroundings they pay! Have a great time! "

This is a great approach that I use with my kids or my cub den on outings. I create a "bounty" for spotting various animals. 25 cents for the first kid to spot (and adult verify) a squirrel. 50 cents for a red tailed hawk. $1 for a deer etc. The bounty goes up by how rare the animal is in the area. Maybe $5 for a bald eagle. $10 for a mountain lion. $100 for an alaskan kodiak bear (they don't live here, but if one is spotted it would surely be worth the bounty). I've yet to have to pay out anything over the $1 amount, but I am always ready to pay up and the boys are much more aware of thier surroundings.

Good luck, TR

Well, in Holland almost every kid has a cell-phone and you'll get a signal almost everywhere. Of course I don't know about the situation in the US.



My opinion is that a cell phone could be a useful signalling device, but of course it could fail. There are a lot of reasons why it could fail, but there are examples all over the world of people being rescued by calling with their cell-phone. And since we usually all carry it: Why not?

I wouldn't rely on a cell phone as ''the core equipment for emergencies'', that should be your PSK and EDC, but it can be, and is (with me) a part of the equipment for emergencies.

Been there, done that, not very nice experience <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I've carried my cell while hunting for the last 3-4 years, meaning I've survived without one for 30+. I leave it switched off for obvious reasons. I'd say that a good 90% of the time I have no signal. But it would never occur to me to leave it home. Like any other tool there are situations where it will be useless, but if I need it I'd rather have that extra 10% than not. Certaintly on a scout trip the leader(s) at least should carry one. I think it would be borderline negligence not to.

Cell phones also serve as a good way for leaders to keep in touch with each other while driving to the destination and if something splits up the group (such as patrols have different activities or a Scout needs medical attention). For short distances we use FRS radios, but for longer distances we use cell phones ... where the signals are available.

We ask the Scouts to leave cell phones and most other electronic devices (except maybe GPS's if they have them) at home.

Familiarity breeds contempt. While a cell phone may be a supplement to your survival kit (as it is mine), by bringing it into the discussion as standard emergency equipment, use of the cell phone will inevitably morph into being primary emergency equipment and other gear will be left behind. People will start carrying two cell-phones so they have a back-up. The goal is to teach self-reliance and responsibility -- not how to exceed your limitations and still survive by the grace of Verizon.

'raven, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your asessment of stupid people. However I find it interesting that you choose a gun analogy toward the end. It made me think of the old standby: "guns don't kill people... people kill people". I think that can be used as a metaphor for cellular technology. The cell phone is a tool, and maybe one of dubious quality (although not ALL cell phones are created equally; of that I'm certain) but it all comes down to the user, their training, and their attitude.

I wasn't saying it should be their only equipment. I'm saying it should be stowed in a pack, charged full, but turned off. They should be trained on it's use and the fact that it will most likely NOT work. They should already have training in survival, shelter, water, etc. And I don't know about you, but my cell is just about the smallest piece of equipment with me most of the time (except for what's in my pockets). In a pack with tent/bag/water/food/clothes, I doubt anyone would notice it.

I think it comes down to the people. In all of the cases you mentioned, they sounded like 2 bit ass-clowns desperate for a clue (or a visit from Darwin and that Mighty Chainsaw of Natural Selection you mentioned <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). I heartily agree with you that technology tends to help people become complacent and stupid. I see - or rather, hear - people wearing their MP3 players at full blast, yammering on the phone while driving at 75 eating a cheeseburger, and plenty of other annoying activity.

But I don't associate either the phone or the MP3 player with the behavior, I associate that bit of stupidity with the people in question. I'm saying that this might be an opportunity to teach the scouts something that could benefit them forever; that technology can't always save our hide, and even if it can, it's bound to cause someone else a lot of grief because of our stupidity.

A cell phone is a tool. It's far too often used, to paraphrase your comments, as a crutch. I'd rather teach my son that it's not the end-all of survival equipment. Maybe not even "survival" equipment to begin with. But it's one tool in an arsenal of items that can be used to save one's life. I'll continue to be amazed and chagrinned at those who go for a hike with just their cell phone and new boots, but tell me this... given all your disdain for the cell phone, would you do the right thing if you carried one? Of course! You know why? Because you've made it clear that you understand that it's a potentially lethal convenience, just one that happens to be able to save your bacon once in a while. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think you've hit the nail on the head that we should be able to survivie without a cell phone.

What I'm afraid of is the group of kids that decide to go out in the backwoods because one of them has a new phone... so without understanding what they are getting into, they assume that will be all they need. Group think among that age is pretty common. If we don't explain this to them at some point, who will? I see the age and the fact that they are Scouts as being the perfect time to get them thinking intelligently about this.

People are stupid. Cell phones aren't.

Bingo! That's 98% of what I've been trying to say.

That, I'm still not conviced that cell phones don't cause brain damage. Maybe not long term, but while they are on, as I said, people get dumb.

The issue of "lostness" is all in the head. You know where you are. Just don't know quite where the ground underfoot is relative to where you'd like be. So technically, unless you are stuffed in a duffle bag and dumped someplace, or something similiar, humans aren't lost.

Just misplaced. And that doesn't sound that threatening, now does it?

Actually, cellphones are pretty dumb computers.

So, rather than saying that cells make people dumb, maybe overcomplacent might be a better term?

We are heading at the same point. We are just taking different paths. You mention group think amoung kids. Taking away thier phones and thier musics and all the trappings of that life puts them off balance. Even the symbolic isolation can be powerful. I've found when I have I have to deal with kids, if you can get them outside of thier comfort zone, just a little, they are more likely to learn and think for themselves.

And if they panic a hair at the idea of being behind the ultimate firewall, good. It has made the simulation more realistic, and more memorable. If they think "well, worst comes to worse, there is the phone", they will stop when thier hands get sore while using the hand drill to make fire. Take the illusion of safety away, and you'll eventually get smoke, if not a spark, out of that drill.

Without the crutch, they've got two choices: learn how to be comfortable or be miserable. People like being comfortable. I won't force them to learn. But if they choose to come over on thier own, with the understanding that price of ending your misery is learning how to get yourself out of this situation, they will remember it longer, in my opinion. Just like I won't make them eat, but when they get hungry, they'll catch some grasshoppers like the others did and ask me what needs to be done before they eat them. And I'll explain to them about pulling the heads off, and the discription of a tapeworm will out squimish thier reluctance to basically turn Jimminy Cricket inside out. And reduce thier appitite, so the grasshopers are more filling.

Yes, I learned to swim by being thrown off a dock into a pond. And no, this has nothing to do with why no one asks me to babysit. That has to do with me considering "Enter Sandman" a lullaby.

You are making huge assumptions about people that carry cell phones into the bush. There is a big difference between an educated, responsible person carrying a cell phone, and an idiot with nothing but a cell phone.

http://www.equipped.org/onyrown.htm#without_it

I would assume that you agree that Doug Ritter is an educated and responsible individual, and it appears that a cell phone is part of his "don't leave home without it" gear. He acknowledges its limitations, but I don't think anyone on this forum is saying there aren't limitations.

The idiot that relies on nothing but the cell phone would probably have gone out with nothing in the days before cell phones. People are either smart enough to prepare or they're not. It isn't like they sit down to learn skills and gather equipment, and then say, "Hey I have a cell phone I'm wasting my time." An irresponsible ignoramus with a cell phone, or without, is an irresponsible ignoramus. Not taking advantage of a technology that could be a valuable tool and save lives, because some people are dumb enough to carry nothing but that tool, doesn't make any sense. It falls under the same logic as "people with guns commit crimes, therefore gun owners are all criminals, and guns should be outlawed." The cell phone doesn't make somebody a careless and complacent boob, but their mindset does. You prepare or you don't.

I never said that everyone should carry a PLB either. That is a leap.

BTW People have been saying that the kids today are screwed up for generations, and possibly for all of human history. That generation of kids grows up like every prior generation, and then goes on to say it about the next. IIRC you are into role playing games and Ren Fairs. I played a lot of RPGs growing up and had several of my friends parents forbid their participation lest they become delusional devil worshippers. That made me one of those screwed up kids that they probably talked about. I have yet to sell my soul, and the extent to which I am delusional is debatable, but I have yet to crawl into the storm drains and stab someone while yelling about orcs. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (I'm sure you remember the Tom Hanks TV movie where his character did something similar and was institutionalized all because he played D&D. Every RPG player I knew hated that movie.)

Please understand, I do respect your point of view. There are plenty of people that head into the woods wearing cotton pants, a t-shirt, and carrying nothing but car keys and a cell phone. I just don't think the cell phone made them that way.

Dave,

Thank your for your service with BSA!

I have been there with the Webelos on overnight camping with a hike in the morning. It will be great for you to expose them to the idea of being prepared for emergencies. Just don't expect them to carry through with anything you tell them. They normally can't buy many of the things you are talking about, they are little kids.

The best you can hope for is to make them all carry whistles and learn to stop if they are lost and blow the whistle three times. If it is not a snack or soda the boys tend to not carry things.

massacre,
That is basically what I am trying to say. I guess I should finish reading the thread before I reply. It would have saved me a lot of typing.

In my original post I never said that a cell phone should be used as a crutch or relied upon as the sole piece of emergency gear.

Yep... one thing I think we are all in agreement on is that going into the bush with only a cell phone for survival is going woefully unprepared.

Gad,
Non lockbacks too dangerious? How did we survive in the scouts 30+ years ago when NO ONE carried a lockback - we had the old "5 blade" boyscout knives, in carbon steel. You learned - if there is pressure on the blade, it doesn't fold, don't pull back on it

Sigh

And my troop never bothered with offical Totting chip cards - when the Scoutmaster/JASM/Sr Patrol Leader said "He's ready" - you were ready , but then again, most of us had a pocket knife we carried every day BEFORE we got to the boy scout level.

That reminds me - time to teach my 9 YO daughter how to sharpen a knife - and to get her a pocket knife for her next birthday. By 10 YO, it was MY chore to keep all the smaller kitchen knives razor sharp, and by 12 or so, ALL the kinves...

Never felt so naked as the month I spent a few back on Grand Jury - no PSK, no knife, no nothing. Gad, we were bleeping helpless (did slip a few badaides in my wallet)

Yep, I see where yer coming from. I carried non-lockers a long time. Times have sure changed, the more modern the world gets, the more dependent people get on things modern. Being safety concious is a good thing though, always remember that.

I do think kids are sheltered too much in American society as a whole as compared to when I was a kid, but all of the new dangers out there dictate that it be done.

You can always make a mistake and pull back on the blade or use your thumb on the blade by mistake. Why take that chance with a child? Why don't you go read what Doug Ritter has to say about non-locking folders?

You're right, MOST of the idiots who carry just a phone probably had nothing 20 years ago. But I've seen people have a bout of the dumbs and leave behind a kit becuase they have a cell phone, people who never would have left it behind if they didn't. Not just a survival kit, but also car kits.

I also think things have been taken out of context, and I might not have explained myself as well as I would have liked. I understood (correctly) Jim's post to refeer to the scouts having cell phones during survival training. I can't stress how strongly I am opposed to that- it is like having a graphing calculator at a 6th grade math test. When they have completed thier training, which would be paralleled by land navigation and other training, I would have been unhappy to see the phones but so long as they were off I could deal with it. But not while learning, no way, same as a hand held shortwave transmitter, GPS or a case of highway flares. If you earned the badges, fine, I can see all of these someplace like the more remote parts of Philmont or if hiking in Alaska. But not while learning.

Part of why I might not have made myself as understandable is I hate and despise cellphones. I don't own one. If I have to have one for a job, the company is either paying for it or it is going to be the cheapest plan possible. I'm not fond of phones to begin with and one that follows you is just too much for me. That might be why I came on strong and lost my point.

As for each generations saying that the one after it is worse, it can be proven. College entrance requirements have dropped for fifty years, and primary and secondary education "way points" have degraded as well.A few years ago, I had the opertunity to take a test that my high school, which has always been ag and tech focused, gave to before you could graduate. In 1927 they required math that (at that time) I hadn't seen in 3 years of calculus with side trips into stats, trig, and discrete. Even with a book of math tables, I could not do it. The average high school graduate can't find the US on a world map, nor can they tell you the names of the countries the US borders on- I can forgive missing Russia becuase there is just enough water that there really is a tiny strip of international waters, but come on, Mexico and Canada should be right on the tip of the tounge. But the discussion of why and what is wrong is a little off topic. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Modern? The Romans made what we would now call liner or framelock folders, with a brass cross spring. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Yes, things are reinvented often. Point well taken.

Ironraven,

I pretty much agree with everything you've said regarding cell phones and people's dependency on them. True, there are people that rely heavily on a cell phone instead of common sense, but the same could be said for almost anything we (as in the people on this forum) carry daily. Do we depend on having a compass rather than using the sun or the stars to tell direction? Why do we carry lighter, matches, and a magnesium rod to start a fire, rather than starting one from scratch? Even a knife, paracord, plastic sheeting, and iodine tablets, compasses, etc, all of that would seem like pretty modern luxuries for a Native American who survived for generations without any of those items. What we think of as being prepared, might be someone else's idea of being gear dependent.

All I'm saying is that it's just the natural evolution of gadgets. It can be really useful to have in an emergency, but it's no replacement for basic skills. I personally don't own one, but I will borrow one on occasion if I think it's really necessary. for example, if driving on a long trip. I carry that in addition to the right equipment, but a working cell phone out in the middle of nowhere when your car breaks down is worth more than all the knives and signal flares you can carry.

I think we've gone a bit off topic now, it might be a better subject for another thread. To answer the original question, I think you've covered most of the bases. You can only teach so much knowledge to a group of boy scouts at one time, no need to go into every detail. The Boy Scout Handbook covers a lot of this stuff pretty well, so anything you teach them in addition to this will be great.

ironraven
Your post about math reminded me of something I read the other day:

Teaching math


Last week I purchased a burger and fries at Wendys for $3.58.

The counter girl took my $4.00 and I pulled 8 cents
from my pocket and gave it to her. She stood there,
holding the nickel and 3 pennies. While looking at the
screen on her register, I sensed her discomfort and
tried to tell her to just give me two quarters, but
she hailed the manager for help. While he tried to
explain the transaction to her, she stood there and
cried.

Why do I tell you this?

Because of the evolution in teaching math since the
1950s:

Teaching Math In 1950

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His
cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his
profit?

Teaching Math In 1960

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His
cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What
is his profit?

Teaching Math In 1970

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His
cost of production is $80. Did he make a profit?

Teaching Math In 1980

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His
cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20 Your
assignment: Underline the number 20.

Teaching Math In 1990

A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is
selfish and inconsiderate and cares nothing for the
habitat of animals or the preservation of our
woodlands. He does this so he can make a profit of
$20. What do you think of this way of making a living?
Topic for class participation after answering the
question: How did the birds and squirrels feel as the
logger cut down their homes? (There are no wrong
answers.)

Teaching Math In 2005

Un ranchero vende una carretera de madera para $100.
El cuesto de la produccion era $80. Cuantos tortillas
se puede comprar?

A lot of modern tills have exactly 7 buttons on them. $1, $5, $10, $20, $50, $100, Cheque and Card. No button for exact money. If you want to be nasty to a Sales Assistant, give them the EXACT money. Then enjoy the look of panic.

Ok, I didn't read the whole thread, so this might have been mentioned. It might be targeting younger children than your group but the concept is very good: Hug A Tree

RCMP Hug A Tree

Add to the "STAY PUT"...if searchers are looking for you, they are your friends.

(From the incident where the Scout who, not too long ago hid from rescuers because he was trained "Not to Talk to Strangers")