Ultracaps? Oh sweat light. Some of those things are measured in double and triple digit farads, and have discharge times near enough to zero that if you ground one, the cloud of vapor that used to be you will flash into plasma!

Yeah, I'm exagerating a little, but seriously, those things scare me. They make the monsters in a cathode ray display look like a kids toy, and one of those once tossed me a few feet. I dont' try to fix monitors any more. Literally tens of thousands of watts, it is a canned lightening bolt. I'm not sure if I'd rather have those or blasting caps in my car. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Well, they are working on putting them to use as batteries with nano technology (carbon nanotubes increase surface area to the point where they have the same power for size as batteries). The advantages are near instantaneous recharge and incredible lifetimes. I'm no EE, but I thought that it completely depends on how they are built to discharge, but I've been warned before not to touch capacitors unless I wanted to have my heart 30 feet out of my chest. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mal, I'm really not trying to be a pain, but would you do that on a conventional vehicle without (a) turning off the ignition switch or (b) pulling the 12V supply, much less (c) chocking/blocking the wheels? Killing power in the 12V circuit kills power to the relay that closes the circuit for the lines that run from the battery, within the battery housing.

The big wires are run under the floor, not through the door or roof, IIRC, and that is across the board. Again, check with a local dealer, but logically speaking, there is absolutely no reason to run wire further than you have to. The most cost effective path is under the floor. I've never heard of situation where you had cut through the underside of a car to extract someone. If it is that bad, you probably don't have a patient.

And if the crash is bad enough to cut the cables of the high voltage system, odds are the air bags have deployed. That kills the power to the relay for the main power. I belive the Toyotas are supposed to have a secondary accelerometer in the relay itself, to open it if there is more than a certain number of Gs.

I just raided my brother's bookmarks he left on my dad's computer. (The questionable joys of having to move back home.) Some of this might interest a number of us:
http://www.firehouse.com/extrication/archives/2001/july01.html (general)
http://www.extrication.com/ERG.htm (has links to manufacture's emergency guides)
http://techinfo.toyota.com/public/main/erg.html (toyota eremgency response guides only)
https://www.serviceexpress.honda.com/rjanisis/HYBRID.asp (honda's)
http://www.carsp.ca/hybrids.htm (from our strange sibling to the north)
http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrids-fires-emergencies.html (links at the bottom to everyone ERGs)

He had them organized in the same section as his stuff of HazMat. He carries the lookups on placards and what to do for various forms of odd HazMat in a binder that he keeps in his truck by his turn out bag. I think he's added the appropriate parts of the ERGs for the hybrids to that. As you said, first rule is protect your crew. And if that means you take two minutes, you take two minutes, same as at an unidentified hazmat.

That might not be a horrible idea- if the HazMat centers are willing, the could give a brief on the kills for the hybrids when the are called. Not sure if people would want a placard on thier car, but it's an idea.

Sorry, man, I'm not trying to belittle your concerns. I'm just saying that from what I've learned, the risks are mitigatable with training. If I'm right on the heavy lines being under the floor, then you should be able to do an extraction as normal.

I've given it thought, becuase as I've said, I know guys with them, I know too many (if that's possible) cops, firefighters and EMTs, and I'm big on alterntive fuels.

You want scary- a propane powered car with six 5 pound bottles in what was once the trunk. THAT is an FAE rolling down the road. And there is talk of using LP as an alt fuel in some circles.

I'm just a CE with an unhealthy interst in mechanical and electromech stuff. :P

Discharge time is regulated by the time constant, which in turn is defined by the overall circuit's resistance and capacitance and the nature of the electrolyte. I can't remember the exact formula. But I do know to fear anything that is measures it's max wattage with five or six (or more) figures. I've had lighting strike within a hundred meters of me, that wasn't fun. Having lighting strike within me, NO WAY! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yea, I've noticed other countries get all the diesel vehicles. Ford makes a diesel version of the Ranger pickup, Jeep makes a diesel Wrangler, ect.

As to the diesel, we have started getting the good stuff. In the United States there are now two types of diesel for sale at the pumps, LSD (Low Sulfur Diesel) and ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel). Soon you will only be able to buy the ULSD variety. ULSD is the equivalent to the Euro spec stuff.

Now, our diesel emissions standards are going to be getting tougher. In 2007 diesels will require an EGR setup and catalytic converters, even on the big rigs. I believe after 2007 we will see more diesels as the new restrictions will be put into effect. I think a lot of companies have been waiting until they go into effect to release their new diesel vehicles. I know Jeep has been waiting to bring out their Grand Cherokee 3.0L Diesel (the engine is a Mercedes designed 50 state legal bluetec diesel).

Or the guy next to you in the Vette Z06, Viper, or Ford Gt. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

That being said, I own a 2003 Ford SVT Cobra (Convertible) and it is a great car. Scary fast, handles well, and even has two back seats. The only thing I don't like about it is the insurance......it's a killer. It took my insurance guy two weeks to find a company that would insure me, and another week to find one that would insure me for less than $9,000. I've got a perfect record with a CDL too! I finally found someone who would insure me for $4,000 if I took a $1,000 deductible. I would be scared to see what the insurance would be on the GT500 with the 110hp it has on me (well, when I was stock, now a stock GT500 couldn?t touch me <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Not at all, this is great conversation

My scenario was an immediate need, compromised airway or similar where the responder pokes his head in the drivers window to see what can be done. Time permitting, yes you are absolutely correct, all those precautions should/would be taken.


Great, thanks, I'll take a look at them. I'm sure the manufacturers are doing what they can for education. Just remember, this is brand new technology. People who have been resonding to accidents for decades are now faced with an unknown. Their first reaction will be to wait, rather than chancing adding themselves to the patient count.

Exactly. I wasn't saying that it would preclude aid, just delay it. My point was that I don't want a vehicle (right now) that might delay aiding me if I'm the driver/patient.


Again, absolutely. Trainign for this is no different than training for delivering a baby in the field. The first time you come across that situation, you're going to take a step back. The tenth time, you'll have no hesitation.

I guess what got lost in this is that I was looking at owning a hybrid through the eyes of EMS. I wasn't saying that EMS won't be able to respond, I was saying I don't want to be the hybrid owner that gets a delayed response (how little it might be) because the technology is still new, and the education hasn't run it's course yet.

Adding my 2¢. One would suspect that the hybrid car engineers would use the same type of impact sensing relays, currently used to operate electric fuel pumps, to operate the contactors (really big relays) for the electric drive system. DIY electric car building guides strongly using using them (in pairs) so that in the event of an impact, the high current system is disabled. (Just don't use ones from late '80's Fords - they'd cut off when you closed the trunk lid!)

Oh and a fun thing for all you first responders out there, there is an outfit "upgrading" hybrid battery systems from NICad to Lithium Ion. There is a reason the car makers aren't using Li batteries yet, large Li batteries pose a significant exolpsion risk. They are working on ways to better contain the cells to make them safer because Li batteries offer significantly better performance in compairison to NiCAD's..

If it's not one thing it's another...

JimJr

I just wish my friend who'd wrecked his first Prius had been allowed to do what we wanted. The insurance company said no to the propsal of having a dozen geeks decend on the carcass with tools in hand. At least that was what he told us, but since the first time I met it I'd been wanting to talk it apart, so who knows. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If they'd been cool with it, I would have been able to send you video of the hybrid autopsy.

As I pointed out, I can't think of a reason why there should be any issues from an electical point of view. Even if the training doesn't work for everyone in your agency, timeframe wise, it might be possible to have one of the techs from the local dealer's garage to a walk through on where the electrical systems are, in terms of "can you cut through the door post" and the like.

And I understand the concern about hybrids and electrics being sneaky at slow speeds. I've been suprised a few times. But if you listen, there is whine to the electic motors. It is very high pitched, if you can hear it, you will be able to remember it once you've heard it. I also forget that most people, unlike me, don't keep blocks in the trunk of the car. (Too many places that seem "flat" really aren't, and block the tires on the other end if I've got a flat.)

I would say it is like working a scene and discovering a firearm, or a powerline. Treat it as dangerous, and do what you feel you need to.

Lion cell retrofits? That would up the ante a little, particularly if thier housing was ruptured or in a fire. I hope they are using good ones.

For those that don't know, most cell phones and PDAs use lithium-ion, at least the higher end and more recent ones. Remember when there was the stuff about the Nokia's bursting into flames about a year ago? That was caused by cheap, bad, scary lithium ions that were aftermarkets to replace dead or lower power batteries, often older NiCads cells.