I know there is a thread out there discussing what knife to include in an altoids tin sized PSK, and I figured we could do one size larger and discuss SAS/Mess tin sized PSK's <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Let me first start off by saying I don't know much about knives... just that they can get really freaking expensive!

The most rugged knife in my SAS tin is a little gerber ridge knife (chosen for it's flatness), but I'm concerned about it's durability and the utility of something that size for general purpose work. Is it large enough to do the job if I have nothing else, and is the design durable enough? I'm not sure...

I was looking at Jensens "J.U.S.T" which can fit inside the tin. While it's utility as a hatchet is questionable (reference to a previous thread on the matter), it does seem to make good use of space, being as large as practical given the restrictive size of the tin (~4.76" x 3.5" or so).

I think I recall someone using a mora knife blade in their tin, and planning on fashioning a handle in the field for it, but I don't know if I'd want a knife with some assembly required...

As mentioned earlier, I don't know much about knives, so I'm not keen on the most useful blade shapes for general purpose outdoor work (shaving wood, batoning, skinning, and whatever else you may use a knife for out there), and ergonomics... what's that!? But I was bored and screwing around on MSPaint trying to squeeze the most edge in the smallest space while still having something to hang onto....



A rough depiction of the JUST is in there as well (top right).

Or would a more conventional approach be superior? Instead of trying to jam as much cutting edge as I can into the space, would a smaller blade and more conventional layout be better?



I'm no knife builder of course. What are your thoughts on the matter? Is the ridge knife fine, or is there something out there that would be better?

I wouldn't include a knife in a PSK in the first place. My opinion is that you should carry it seperately. If you lose your PSK, you still got your knife and if you want to do something with your knife, you don't have to make a mess of the tin. And you can use the space that the knive takes up much better.

If the knive in your tin is your back-up: I would remove it and replace it with a scalpel blade. The chanses that you lose your knife are slim, and if you do lose it, the scalpel blade is a acceptable back-up.

About knifes being very expensive: I use some good knives, the most expensive one was 20 Euro!
(my multi-tool costed much more, of course.)

'' The best knives are not always the most expensive ones.''

Make your own desicison and take care.

Jim

Really? Interesting...

Using that logic, you wouldn't have a firestarting method either, as you should be carrying one seperately anyway, and if you lose your PSK you still have it <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I carry my PSK to suppliment my EDC, but I still want it to be useful if I find myself with nothing else.

I have a Helle #56 blade from Ragnar's Forge (it's the one in the middle in this picture. I cut maybe 1/4" off the tang and it fits diagonally into my BCB tin. If I lose knife #1 then I have a reasonably effective backup, certaintly more sturdy than a scalpel. Thanks to Chris K. for the idea.

I understand not wanting to fashion a handle in the field but when dealing with the space limitations of a PSK, everything becomes a trade-off. I plan on wrapping the tang with paracord if necessary, a simple if inelegant solution. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Even though my first line blade is almost always my Leatherman supertool. I carry an old fashioned Buck folder that I've had for years in my work bag as backup. Same way that I carry a couple of extra pens and even a spare flashlight, just in case the ones I carry on my person get lost or fail to function. The word is "redundant" <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Burncycle:

Concider (??) the chances between you losing your knife and having more space in your tin for additional equipment.

In
My PSK
There's no space to add a knife, so I use a scalpel blade. It's a good and acceptable back-up, since the chance of losing your
knife is so slim.

It's a personal choice you're making between a knife-back up and other useful equipment.

Think about it, because when you're in a survival situation, it's your responsibility and you're on your own.<img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I wouldn't include a knife in a PSK in the first place. My opinion is that you should carry it seperately. If you lose your PSK, you still got your knife and if you want to do something with your knife, you don't have to make a mess of the tin. And you can use the space that the knive takes up much better.
[color:"red"] I have a knife in EVERY one of my kits as well as a knife and a SWISS tool on my person. If you take something out of a kit/tin, just take the time to put it back into good condition. [/color]
If the knive in your tin is your back-up: I would remove it and replace it with a scalpel blade. [color:"red"] Try using a scalpel blade as a knife when you are cold, shaking, it's dark (3AM), raining, and tired. I have, I'll stick with my knives. A knife the size of a Alox Classic or Money Clip SAK can be made very sharp, and IMHO, works far better than a scalpel. "ALL of the members of a SAR team I was on switched away from scalpels after seeing them in use in the field a few times."[/color] The chanses that you lose your knife are slim, and if you do lose it, the scalpel blade is a good back-up.
[color:"red"] Or a not so good back up.....!

But what do I know, I only have more years in SAR and Survival training than you've been alive.[/color]

You include a knife/ multitool in every kit? Well that's your choice. I respect that, please respect my choice and opinion!

JIM just like you said yourself, it's a personal choice. Personal choices are by definition personal, so having a blade in a PSK is neither right or wrong. It's just a personal preference to having redudancy or not.

A scalpel is in my opinion a very bad back-up. Having a much beter back-up knife in a PSK would be a more sensible approach.

"You include a knife/ multitool in every kit? "
No, I said a knife in every kit and a knife/swiss tool on my person.

Feel free to comment.

"A scalpel is in my opinion a very bad back-up. Having a much beter back-up knife in a PSK would be a more sensible approach. "
I agree, and IMHO, safer to the user.

Well, is it likely that you could lose your knife?

If your answer is yes: Add a (small) knife.

If it isn't: save the space by using a scalpel blade and then I could add other equipment.

I prefer the last one: I carry a knife on my keychain and a multitool on my belt (secured with pouch and gearkeeper)

It's, once again a personal choice and preference.
I'm respecting your opinion, please respect mine.

A PSK by nature is a concept of downsizing and compromise. There is a point of diminished returns. I remember a post on another website where empty .22 shells were whistles and the blade on a SAK the signal mirror. It had become a game of minutae and not realistic survival. If you choose to include a blade in your PSK kit do so. Like sleeping bags, In this real world YOU will be the one either warm or shivering in the thing, not a name on a forum half a continent away. That said, the blade will be limited in abilities just as the button compass will get you home, but not to a orienteering checkpoint. Small blades on full handles are nothing new. Oetsi's blade seems to have served him well. The late Chris Janowskie's Ranger knife was such a concept. Perhaps the best resolution to this question is FIELD TRIALS in a controlled environ.

I bought a bunch of Benchmade Benchmites (the red line version). I think I paid $30 for each and I stuck them in my kits. They are small and thin, but lock solidly and are relatively comfortable to use for their size. Plus you can engrave your name and address on them or any other info.

Ok, Ok! I can see this is a topic that causes all sort's of disagreements. In the interests of keeping the peace, can I point out to everyone that your tin has to contain all the bits that you CANNOT make easily. That means purification tablets, needles, emergency tinder, fire lighter etc. Any cutting edge you carry is going to be your back up to your back up to your back up. I should also point out that the original tins were designed for E&E. So the contents were picked for concealability as much as for their utility. Our requirements are somewhat different. In terms of knives, I have a scapel blade in mine and a swiss classic in my otterbox kit. And I am in deeeep [censored] if I ever have to resort to either of them.

I won't get into the whole should or shouldn't debate because there is no right answer. The only people that may find a right answer will be using their kits and either thankful to have the knife, or deeply regretting the decision not to.

A flat knife like the Jensen doesn't have to go into the tin though. It could be held on the outside with tape, ranger bands, paracord wrap, etc. The edge could be protected/guarded a lot of different ways but if a skeletal handled knife was chisel ground the edge could rest against the tin and be safe (much like the KISS knife).

Regarding the Jensen J.U.S.T. You may want to do some searchs over at BladeForums for Jensen Elite Blades. Jensen may be out of business, and he is definitely hard to reach all of a sudden. There is some grumbling about knives and money owed, so if you can get a hold of him do some research first. Getting another knife maker to make one for you may be your best bet.

The Douk Douk comes to mind as far as folders go. It is nice and flat, but I think the small is just a bit to long to fit into an Altoids tin diagonally.

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/2292/doukdoukrev.htm

http://www.covecutlery.com/item.cfm?ItemsID=323

If you can swing the price, PJ Tomes makes some very flat folders that are supposed to be very strong. The one linked to below has Ti handles but I think I've seen stainless steel in the past.

http://www.tomesknives.com/model%201-F.htm

He has these little production pieces he designed. I've never seen one in person but two of them are very flat too. The D2 steel seems promising.

http://www.tomesknives.com/production.htm

Let us know what you decide. I've been trying to decide what to do in this regard for quite a while.

I have never been a fan of the tin-box survival kits, but they are very effective. I always include a knife in my PSK. I personally like a good folding/locking knife for my smaller kits, but the J.U.S.T. would be an excellent choice (IMO). I like the design of the knife you drew with the longer handle and shorter blade, I would have to play with one but it looks promising!

As for the controvesy... my PSKs serve one of two purposes; When I am trail running or mountain bike (or similar activities where weight is essential) my PSK is my only survival equipment. My other kits are designed to carry emergency/backup equipment when I am in the field... in both senerio's, if I am in my survival kits, there is a problem.

In the field my PSK is always on me, not in a pack, but on my first line gear. If I loose the rest of my kit I will still have my PSK. I have never tried to get my kits stupid light, having been in a few situations where dumping my pack was my only option, I decided that my field PSKs will be a little hardier than others make theirs.

For me it is a matter of how often I need a survival-style knife. The answer is basically never, in an urban environment. I use smaller, multi-purpose swiss army knives or multi-tools instead.

So I have a semi-PSK that contains a mini-RSK. The point of the kit is to have a single package that I can throw into a small rucksack or large coat pocket without much thought. If it doesn't have a decent knife in it, I probably won't have a decent knife on me.

When I'm hiking in the great outdoors, I have multiple knives. In my pack you'll find a Cold Steel SRK. In my pocket, a Spyderco Native (just bought this one - really like it!) In my larger survival kit in the pack, some old Cold Steel something-or-other. Forgot exactly what it is. About a 3-1/2" folder with liner-lock. An "UltraLock" or something like that. Model no longer made. I don't like it much - it currently serves as a backup - good enough for that role.

In my pocket PSK - the Altoids tin - I don't keep a real knife (wouldn't fit). I have three Exacto blades. These would be my final fallback if I managed to lose my other knives!

Once again... the voice of reason shines through <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />(although, as long as I got in on this, I don't see much use in a scalpel blade either, unless things get bad enough to slit my wrists, but then again, that goes against the whole fight for survival mindset, doesn't it?).

Troy

Controlled enviroment? Where's the fun in that?

Scalpel or x-acto blades are in all our PSKs becuase they fit in the Altoids tin. That's different than what Burn is talking about. Everythink in a PSK is redundant to a redunandancy. I have x-acto blades in almost all my tins, becuase they really don't have any bulk or mass. But if I'm using one, it's becuase (a) the Ka-bar is missing, (b) the Leatherman is gone, (c) the Victorinox Climber I carry on my belt is someplace else, (d) the Micra and everything else on my keyring is out of reach, and (e) the Vic Camper I keep in my bigger tin is on it's own without me.

For a mess tin kit, I like to go with a SAK. Big enough to do most things with, you have a number of options with a saw, and you get to have something big enough to hang onto.

Baring that, there are a ton of options. The Hibben throwers (the older ones) in the small size, if you can get a good edge on them might work in your size restrictions. The Aitor Skinner II is a classic, when you can find them. There are a number of other, "skeletonized" knives out there, particularly "neck knives" that would work well in a mess tin. The Becker Necker might be a little big, but Boker has one that might work, I can't remember it's name right now.

If you look around, particularly at ren faires, you can find a custom smith who will make you what you want for a decent price.

UPDATE: The Boker model is the Magnum Escape. Very reasonably priced, under $20 if you look around. You might also check out the Spyderco "Spot", it is very similiar to the second sketch you posted.

I was under the impression that the scalpel blade was more for lancing blisters & abcesses, removing splinters, shrapnel, bits of aircraft, etc. rather than use as a knife. I once got bit by a cat. The bites got sealed up, hot & swollen, obviously infected. I used the incision & drainage method that was the only way before antibiotics were discovered. This cleared up by the second day. I have had blisters on my feet that were so painful that walking was impossible. Opening & draining solved that although it is not the official way. The medical people want you to leave them alone to avoid infection. Probably good advice if you have a sedan chair and bearers to carry you.

That Jensens knife looks pretty cool do you have a web link for it?

Hi All,

How about a fixed 'blade' the Bark River Mikro Slither. It's just 10cm or 4 inches long! So that should nicely fit your BCB survival tin.
I hope it's allright to post the image of the review found at: review


Anyone got any experience with the knife? Its blade is exactly the same as the Mikro Canadian exept for the thickness.

It's still on my wishlist, so I haven't tested it yet.
<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Luca

Yes it is. Also used during WW2 by P.O.W's to tailor clothes, forge papers etc. If anyone wants to understand the logic behind the SAS tin. Go look at the Imperial War Musieum's display on POW's escape kit's and lenth's that H.M. Goverment went to in order to get extra gear to them in Red Cross food parcels etc. Quite enlightening. Got a few idea's that are of use to us as well.

Here was their page for it: http://www.jenseneliteblades.com/just.htm

Unfortunately, as someone mentioned in an earlier reply, the company had some problems delivering what they promised on time (or at all) so they've shut down for the time being.

looks good!

Luca,
That's a great knife suggestion, but hotlinking pictures on someone else's site is frowned upon on the web. Maybe just links to the pictures might be better, so that the other sites bandwidth usage isn't going up every time someone opens this thread.

I hope that doesn't come across "preachy," I'm just trying to let you know.

I have one and like it alot. VERY sharp. Very sturdy for such a small blade. I'm not sure how it'd fit in a tin (not sure the exact size of the SAS tins) but it's definetly a good last bet blade. I carried mine as a neck knife for about a year, but I decided not to carry a neck knife these days. All BRKT products are good workmanship, and the customer service is outstanding.

Another good option might be the Simonich Knives Bitteroot, it's a wonderful little necker and cuts amazingly well for such a small knife.

http://simonichknives.com/midtech.htm

Specs from the site:

Blade - 1.75" S30-V or Talonite
Overall - 4"
Blade Style- Clip Point
Finish - Satin Stone Wash
Weight - .8 oz
Sheath - Kydex Neck Sheath

I have the first BRKT Nano Slither. Jimmy Stewart thinned the handle for me and it is now a part of my modified Ritter AMK PSP, replacing the scalpel blade. I sometimes add a Alox SAK Classic, SAK money Clip, or Alox Bantam SAK to my PSP/FAK's in addition to the Nano Slithers.

I have the same Gerber Ridge Knife. Took the clip off of the back to make it even thinner.

Some knives that I have found nice for small to medium sized kits are made by Gene Ingram. All of his work is very well executed, and considering that they are customs knives quite well priced.

This Naked Pocket model is ideal for the slightly larger than altoids kits. This one has a slim leather sheath but could be put in kydex to save a bit of thickness. This one is in A2 with about a 1.5" blade.



I have this same pattern with micarta scales which increases the usability a bit over the naked version. This one in D2 also with a 1.5" blade.



For the mess tin sized kits this Lacer works quite well. I do the lacing on these knives for Gene so I am a tad bit partial to them, but the leather lace makes for a slim but grippable knife. This one in D2 with kangaroo lace and about a 3" blade.



I have a few other Ingram’s…..



His EDC model and SLK are also sized nicely for kits (green bone handled ones in this image).

Gene Ingram’s website can be found here:

<a href="http://geneingramknives.blademakers.com/" target="_blank">http://geneingramknives.blademakers.com/[/url]</a>

I found the small Svord gent’s peasant knife an excellent folder for my PSK. It is a non locking 1 7/8” blade (+ve for UK legal stuff) but with a straight razor like tang so the blade won’t fold back under use like an SAK.
Its handle/knife is very flat so perfect for tight packing:
Total 10.5cm long (of which the thin tang is about 2.5cm)
2cm at its widest & 5mm thick for the body.

It’s spent most of its time waiting patiently in my PSK but faired very well box and tape cutting during a house move. No hard use feedback!

The blade body has a convex profile but a decent flat bevel on the edge makes for easy sharpening, also the knife is listed as carbon steel but I am pretty sure it’s an ok stainless grade.

www.svord.com

The larger locking SL looks like it would pack in a kit very well also.

Dougb