The most scientific study which was done was in Germany and I have been unable to obtain a copy of their report. Their finding is what I posted above as to the effect on the venom.

Unfortunately I don't see there being any further studies done in the US for some time to come. We are the great land of protecting interests. All I will say is there are several very powerful people who have it in their power to stop any further publishing of this type of study for peer review and have done so. They have also been able to stop funding for further research. There is much politics that goes on in the scientific and medical community, unfortunately. The only other option would be a privately funded study (very expensive). To quote the great scientist Max Planck:
"An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: What does happen is that the opponents gradually die out."



Stun guns work very well for this purpose, however they are a little bit of overkill for this task, only 20 kv is needed and stunguns often provide 100 kv. The stungun causes the muscles all around to tense up which is rather an unusual feeling. There is also an involuntary jerk away from the sourse of the shock. Once the shock stops there is really no after effect, it doesn't hurt or cramp. Naturally the shock hurts more in areas of the body where there are more nerves (hands, face etc.) and much less on the arms and legs.

When you get a sting or bite and there is quite a bit of swelling the pain sensors are usually maxed out, and so the shock doesn't hurt quite as much. That being said, the voltage does often effect a larger area than the area of swelling. So you will definately feel the shock.

I can't say how a cattle prod feels, but I assume it is something like a stun gun.

I use a unit that was made by a missionary, who used to live in South Carolina. He made them for missionaries going into remote places of the world. It consists of an ammo box with a small engine flywheel and ignition coil (from a mower or whipper snipper) and a hand crank. It has two leads coming from the coil which carries the shock.

These units are a little cumbersome but they will always work when needed, as opposed to a stungun which has batteries to go dead. Also stun guns are banned over here in Australia, along with everything else. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My unit feels just like shocking yourself with a lawn mower (pulling the starter cord) Naturally the faster the pulses are together the more intense it is. It is not too bad actually, however the finger tips hurt a little, as anyone knows who has been accidentally shocked by a lawn mower. It is rather easy to hold the electrodes while receiving a moderate shock without feeling too much discomfort. Each pulse is rather like receiving a static electric shock.

A car ignition system is much hotter and will work well but is overkill ( feels like a stungun) I would use it if I had nothing else though.

I am happy to be able to say that there is a Wikidot page up now, which I am an admin for, that shows many of the papers referring to the electroshock therapy method. It also shows the devices that have been used and proposed devices, which are being worked on.

http://venomshock.wikidot.com/

The site is still being worked on and we will be adding new information, reviews and summaries of research. We are also adding information about the studies which did not have success and possible reasons why.

I would welcome your feedback on the site and any recommendations are greatly appreciated. I respect your criticism.

Macgyver.

I've dealt with venomous animals for years and as yet have only been bitten by a very few. The one that stands out the most was the bite from a Scolopendra subspinipes (very large centipede). This is the only species with a human death attributed to it. It bit me three times on the back when it got loose and ran up my arm. As soon as I got it loose and back in it's container, I went straight to the bite reports on arachnoboards to see what to expect. Most of the posts started out the same way "The most excrutiating pain I've ever felt" or "Don't get bitten by one of these". One guy even said he would rather get bit by a black widow again than take a shot from one of these again. After getting myself prepared for the worst, I was surprpised when not much happened. A little localized numbing and a little stiffness. There was a scar for almost a year that itched like crazy and stayed swollen most of the time.

My point with that story is that different people react in different ways to different substances. In my case, it could've been a dry bite but that wouldn't explain the presence of swelling at the site for may months after the bite. I'm sure it wasn't a full blown bite however there was some venom injected at least and there was almost no pain. In fact, the bite itself didn't even hurt even though it drew blood.

The differences in tolerance of the toxins between individuals isn't th only thing to note. The amount of venom and the toxicity of the venom is an important thing to consider. One of the guys I used to deal with used to get bitten pretty regularly and never sought medical treatment for any of the bites. After being bitten by an eyelash viper once, he told me that he would either get better or die. He got better and showed very little sign that he was in pain at the time.

Here in Alabama, there are very few snake bites to worry about for the average healthy adult. rattlesnakes are quite significant, but I've not heard of any confirmed fatalities attributed directly to the snakebite itself in a very long time. As for the spiders, I've never been able to find even a single case of fatality attributed directly to a black widow bite and brown recluses are equally dubious. That is not to say they are not nasty, the bites can cause extensive necrosis which can be permanantly disfiguring.

The whole thing with venom research is, it's very difficult to test due to endless variables in conditions. People have different reactions to the same venoms, animals aren't likely to be helpful by administering controlled doses of their venom, not to mention that age and health play a significant role in how a person reacts, and the fact that every venom is a different mix of nasties that can be different even in the same species.

I think this should be tested more thouroughly (as well as can be) but considering all the variables, there is no way to conclusively say that since it works on one group, that it will work for all. If it does do more good than traditional methods however, it should be implemented more often.

Took a brief visit to the Wikidot. Looks nicely done and shows the drawings I have seen--I guess from the scientific articles Macgyver kindly sent to me way back when when this subject originally came up.

High voltage DC and snake bites...sounds crazy, and although I'm always a skeptic in general, there's just enough evidence to say that it just might have merit. Unfortunately, I don't really see anything new on this site to change my mind, unless I tried reading some more of the actual articles referenced, but I think I've read the main ones already.

I hope more research can be done in this area. Sounds promising, however it's always very hard to do definitive human research on subjects where lethal compounds are involved. There just aren't enough "accidental" bites geographically close enough to a researcher, plus, witholding something like antivenin, when one exists, would be unethical. Unfortunately, trying HVDC + antivenin then makes skeptics say that positive outcomes were due to the antivenin. Can't win either way, unfortunately.

Macgyver, have you heard of anyone trying HVDC with other types of venomous creatures, like jellyfish? After watching a TV show about the lethal and excruciating pain of the sting of the tiny Irukandji jellyfish, anything that can help would be a great boon.

You are right Boacrow, there are many variables and animal studies are just about useless, only the very large pigs and goats that were used in tests were able to show a localised reaction. The studies that do show results are the human studies, where the reaction is localized. In the study from Ecuador the death rate went from 5% down to 0 and the morbidity went from 20% to 1%, that was in the same group of the population in a government sanctioned study.

Arney, at the moment there is not a lot more information of studies that you can read on there, than I sent you. We have more information which will be going up shortly. There will be summaries of studies etc. with references to the publications, and where we have permission we will put up the full text publication. There are still many more references there than I gave you before.

I look forward to studies being done in the US in the future as well. However, there have been trials which have been done all around the world in different countries that show this method works. It is just that if it isn't done in the US many doctors won't beleive it or take notice.

I am not sure about the jelly fish, Portugese Man O War etc., I have no personal experience with one, and at this point I am not aware of any trials being done. I have heard whispers about it working but I don't personally know of any accounts. I will have to ask the other administrator about what he knows. I would not be surprised if it does work.

Macgyver.

One way you might be able to perform your own test of sorts, although not very scientific, and certainly not very orthodox, is to join a forum that involves people who handle venomous animals and ask them to test it out for you. Just give them the criteria for the study and ask that IF anyone gets bitten, they try it out while waiting for real medical assistance. I would stress that it is not a substite for medical treatment, but you are interested in finding out the immediate after effects of a shock treatment for various bites. I'm tempted to try it out the next time I get bitten by something. I don't handle anything deadly much anymore so it's unlikely that I would die from anything I might handle at the moment. As I said, the results might not be exactly scientific, but they will be a good estimate of whether it works or not as the people in these types of forums often have bite reports and they are more likely to get bitten than most.

I am a member of a forum for tarantulas and other venomous invertebrates and they frequently get bitten. I might post it there and see what the consensus is. They may already have a post on it somewhere. I'll check and see.

I beleive you are correct about the voltage on the cattle prod, all the trials were done with 20kv or up to 100kv. A small internal combustion engine is the best source of HVDC for this purpose, especially if you need penetration of the electricity.

I don't have personal experience with marine envenomation, I am still waiting to hear back from a friend about it. I will let you know when I find out.

Macgyver.

Hot water for sting ray stings, eh? That's a new one. But does the hot water actually counter or inactivate the ray's toxin, or is it more for symptom relief? Like the various home remedies for jellyfish stings?

Too bad hot water doesn't work for all poisonous marine animals. As I mentioned in another post, if HVDC could treat the sting from something like the tiny but deadly Irukandji jellyfish, that would be a great achievement. On the TV show I saw about the Irukandji, a couple researchers went into the ocean to collect some specimens. They wore wetsuits and covered up all the exposed skin that they could, but both of them still got stung. One of them was stung by tiny broken tentacles (practically invisible) clinging to her wet suit while she was removing her gear. They were both in excruciating, whole body pain--one for days, the other for weeks. Even the maximum dose of morphine barely took the edge off. Wow, sucks to be them.

Ounce per ounce, sounds like Irukandji can inflict more pain on a person than any other creature out there. Well, and also kill you.

From WebMD on stingray strikes:
[color:"blue"] An easy and important initial treatment that can be started (sometimes at the scene of the injury) is immersion of the injured extremity in hot water (preferably 110-115°F). The water should be as hot as the patient can tolerate but should not cause burns. The water should be exchanged for more hot water as it cools, for an immersion duration of 30-90 minutes.
Very little has been written about the toxin left in wounds after a stingray injury. It is known that the stingray toxin is a protein and is very sensitive to heat. The patient should obtain very rapid symptomatic improvement with heat as the poison denatures and becomes neutralized. Some thought exists that the protein does not truly denature but that some sort of gateway effect occurs on the nerve conduction. Whatever the truth is regarding how heat works, it is a rapid, effective treatment to reduce pain almost instantaneously.
In addition, some practitioners also infiltrate the wound with a local anesthetic, such as lidocaine (lignocaine) or the longer-acting bupivacaine. Occasionally, oral or parenteral narcotics may also be given.
After the toxin has been deactivated by the hot water, attention to local wound care should begin because it is not uncommon for part of the stinging apparatus to break off in the wound.
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I'm not up on my toxins but would ths work for snake or spider toxins.