I understand the treatment of snake bite is a VERY controversial topic in medical and survival circles, and I am not an expert, however I would like to pass on my experiences.

Let me first give a little background information.

I heard many years ago that some missionaries in the third world were using high voltage DC shocks to treat snake bite when antivenom was unavailable. Being a curious sort of chap I decided to do some research into the subject. After some time I was able to track down most of the published, and some of the unpublished, information that is out there and this led me to a Dr Ronald Guderian.

Ron was a missionary doctor in Ecuador during the early 1980's and is the one who did the first study into electroshock therapy for snake bite. I was able to get hold of Ron and after spending some time answering my questions he was nice enough to send me a copy of his unpublished report. The report covered the successful treatment of 322 accidental snake bite victims with a 100 percent recovery rate. The snakes involved were mainly the deadly fer-de-lance and bushmaster snakes. Most treatments were administered within 20 minutes of the bite taking place and the longest time was 180 minutes. Treatment was 4-5 very short shocks to each bite mark and the pain subsided within 15-30 minutes. Any swelling regressed within 48-72 hours. The sooner the treatment the sooner any swelling subsided. In some cases a follow up treatment was needed the next day. Some lab studies were conducted on small animals (rats etc.) in the US and the treatment was found to be ineffective. This is assumed by Ron to be because it is impossible to get a localized reaction to the venom in rats. I mean come on! that's what the venom is designed to kill!

Now for my experiences.

I lived in middle Tennessee for 12 years and I saw more snakes there in just a few years, than I did in my childhood of 18 years in Australia. We had lots of Copperheads and Rattlesnakes around the yard and farm. So when I saw our cat, a female Maine Coon, come up to me with a swollen eyelid and meowing very loudly I suspected a snake. Upon closer examination I found the two fang marks and by that time her eyelid had turned inside out. We later found and killed the 3 foot long copperhead that was around her little cat house.

I had dealt with snake bites, at a vet clinic that I worked at in the past, and I knew that it was very serious. I took our cat and wrapped her up in a towel and then gave her one shock from a modified weed eater flywheel and magneto that we had lying around the house (we used it for bee and scorpion stings). I can tell you I have never seen a cat move so fast in all my life!

I wasn't sure that I had given her enough of a shock and I knew there was no way she would let me shock her again. So I remembered something I had read about vitamin C over here in Australia. They had great success with treating snake bite with high doses of injectable or oral vitamin C (the oral takes quite a bit longer). Vitamin C is a very powerful anti-toxin. I knew that this wasn't the way to conduct a scientific test of electroshock therapy, but I was very partial to the cat and I wasn't about to use it as a guinea pig!

I grabbed the cat and took her to the clinic and gave her a shot of vitamin C under the skin.

By that night the swelling had completely gone down and she was back out hunting as if nothing had happened. There was a slight discoloration of the skin and the hair dropped out around the fang marks.

Since that time our friends at a local Mennonite community have used cattle prods to treat snake bite and Brown Recluse spider bite with great success. On the one occasion when someone refused to shock the spider bite they went to the hospital and had very serious injury from the bite. It seems to work very well for pain and swelling from bites and stings even after long periods have elapsed since the initial bite or sting has been inflicted.

It is very important to use ONLY PULSED HIGH VOLTAGE DC electricity, the type found in lawn mowers, cars (a little too powerful for some), chainsaws, weed eaters, motorbikes, outboard motors and stunguns or cattle prods. Power from the mains is DANGEROUS and will not work.

According to Ron the shock works best if the shock is administered straight through limb where the bite is, and then in an x across the bite.

I apologize for such a long posting but I hope my experiences and the information will prove helpful.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't understand this.

How can the electric shock neutralize the poison??? Is there some kind of scientific theory about HOW it works?

Sue

Good question. There have been many theories about what actually takes place in the venom. The current opinion which seems to be supported by German research is this.

Venom is made up of a complex string of proteins which has a slight positive charge, and the tissue in our bodies has a slight negative charge. Seeing unlike charges attract each other, the venom is attracted to the body's tissue. The pulsed DC electric shock alters the ionic charge on the venom and as a result the venom can no longer attach itself to the tissue to distroy it. The body is then able to dispose of the deactivated venom through the normal channels of free radical scavangers etc. in it's own sweet time.

The German researchers were able to deactivate and reactivate the venom during their experiments which disproved previous theories which proposed that the venom was actually being broken down by the charge.

The Vitamin C when injected under the skin near the site of the bite acts as a very potent anti-toxin or anti-oxidant, read"garbage eater". It is one of the things our body normally uses to clean up trash in our system. Giving the body a large dose of it seems to rapidly speed up the process of the disposal of the venom.

If this study was scientifically done and the results were "100% recovery for 322 victims", shouldn't we have seen it published by now? I'm more than a little skeptical. That's certainly a miraculous success rate - worthy of front page headlines (and not just on the National Enquirer!) The early 80's was a quarter century ago, plenty of time for the study to have gone through peer review and been published. "Grab a sparkplug and take a vitamen" is not a treatment I'd be inclined to follow without some type of medical/scientific review confirming the study's conclusions. It just sounds ... weird <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like a dry bite. (ie no venom injected)

Not all venom is the same. I'd love to see your source document (or a pointer to it), becuase the treatment for a nerve agent (shuts down and shorts out the nervous system) is very different from a necrotic agent (it eats tissue, basically digestive juices) from a blood agent (stops oxygen from being properly carried by the blood) from a paralytic agent (you are aware of everything as your muscles fall asleep, including the diaphram and/or heart). The only time that I can think of a shock being any good is the last case, where if you keep the heart and lungs going, eventually the body metabolises the toxin. In every other case, I can think of how it would do harm, but not help.

If I had to take a guess, it's becuase most bites are blanks. No toxin. The shock just makes you feel better, and might do something for swelling.

Did a quick google: http://www.google.com/search?hs=k68&...amp;btnG=Search

Several articles, including NYTimes and Time. But then I hit upon this one.... http://www.endurance.net/RideCamp/archives/past/03/30/msg00410.html

Sorry, wish it were better news. Probably a blank on your cat. Vitamin C was just helping it with scurvy <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I kid, that may have had some effect and the shock may have calmed the swelling/pain a bit.

Thanks for the interesting comments. Thats what I love about this forum, members think for themselves.

Concerning dry or almost dry bites in Ron's study, all the victims had intense pain and all those who he got to after 30 minutes had localized swelling. Might I add that an ALMOST dry bite from a fer-de-lance is very dangerous! A puncture wound without venom would hurt but would not cause immediate intense pain, and swelling would take some time to develop through bacterial means.

The bite on my cat was definately not a dry bite. The site was just above the eye and to the right side of the face. The swelling I observed was rapid, the side of her face was swollen and the eyelid on that side had nearly turned inside out. The swelling had started to move up her neck and there was very little feeling in the upper neck and face. From my studies it seems swelling from snake bites takes at least a week and often longer before it starts to go down. Also when swelling is observed with snakebite it usually continues to progress for many days. The swelling in my cat stopped as soon as she was treated and proceeded to go down within a few hours. The next day she REALLY felt the follow up shot of vitamin C I gave her <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />, however she didn't feel the first one at all.

The report on the study that Ron did was given to me personally by him and was from the Department of Clinical Investigations, National Center of Tropical Medicine - extension Quito, Hospital Vonzandes, Quito Equador. I do not beleive it is available on the web and I have no knowledge as to weather it has been published in the US or not. I do not have his permission to distribute it without his consent, as I'm sure you can understand.

However there have been other studies published in the Oklahoma State Medical Association Journal July 1992, and June 1991. And comments in The Lancet July 26 1986. All of these showing very positive results from the treatment.

No further studies have been done in the US ( to my knowledge) seeing two have already been done. These lab studies were done on rats and mice who are the snakes natural prey and it is almost impossible to get a reaction that is not systemic in rats and mice. So the studies proved very effectively that this treatment doesn't work on rats and mice. This does not prove however, that it is not effective in much larger mammals and humans. All the studies that I have come across, which were done on humans, show that it does work. Also my personal experience, as well as the experiences of close friends show it to be very effective.

If the shock helps with the pain and swelling then that means it has to be working against the action of the venom in some form or fashion.

Refering to the links, the stun gun manufacturers did use the studies to try and generate sales; unfortunately that is the price we pay for living in a capitalistic society. It has no bearing on the effectiveness of the treatment, or on the integrity of the studies, which were in no way connected to any stun gun companies. Ron's study was done with a car coil connected to a 12 volt battery and some misc components which produced a constant, pulsed 15-18 kv with less than a milliamp of current.

Ron also told me that this treatment works on both haemotoxic and neurotoxic venom, although the study did not involve neurotoxic snakes. My and my friends experience has only been with haemotoxic snakes namely the Timber Rattler and Copper Head.

Ron used antivenom as well as the electroshock later on when antivenom was available (it usually was not) as well as large doses of antihistamine to counter allergic reactions to the antivenom. The study was done PRIOR to the antivenom being available. I assume his use of the antivenom was for protocol (legal) reasons, even though the shock therapy worked by itself.

Now I know most of us who go out into the woods will every now and then get stung by a bee or wasp at some time. So give it a try when you do, and prove it to yourself. The story which put Ron onto doing this was a medical journal article talking about a farmer who was very allergic to bee stings who shocked himself on an electric fence to stop his allergic reaction.

Ron tried it and used it because it worked for him. Not because he had stock in stun gun companies. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> he was out to save lives.

Thats why I and my friends have used it, simply because we tried it and it worked for us. I started out using the electric shock for bee and wasp stings which I am told have a very similar protein makeup to the venom of some snakes. The pain went away very quickly afterwards and any swelling started to subside (I get quite a large welt with bee stings) I also had none of the painful sensitivity to the sting area that with me hangs around for months afterward.

I would have given some credence to the treatment if the mechanism of the electrical shock were in some way denaturing the venom proteins (this is how meat tenderizer works with jellyfish and insect stings – the enzyme papain denatures the venom proteins). However, you state they were able to “reactivate” the venom, which would tend to discount that theory. My question is, how did they recovery the venom and test it to determine “reactivation”?

The use of strong electrical current in various medical treatments has some merit. A European group of medical investigators used electrical probes placed strategically in patients with lung cancer to reduce the size of the tumors without major damage to surrounding tissue. It is similar in effect to radiation therapy in which sub-lethal exposure to radiation is directed though multiple intersecting lines. Where they converge and provide a lethal is at the tumor location. Electrodes placed on the surface of the skin and activated will cause the contraction of local muscle fibers and can be used in conjunction with physical therapy for increasing/maintaining muscle tone.

I am not totally ready to “myth bust” this one quite yet. I am reminded of the Australian Investigator Dr. Barry Marshal, who for many years put forth his theory that a bacterium was a leading cause of stomach ulcers. The medical community consistently criticized him and considered him a medical quack. It was not until he ingested and was able to fulfill Koch’s Postulates (not something I would recommend) that he was able to prove Helicobacter pylori was the cause of a significant incidence of stomach ulcers, worlwide.

Pete

I'd like to read those articles. Do you have any links? As 'Pete said, I'm not ready to mythbust this either. I'm just saying what I found. I find it intriquing if it were true, and I can tell you that if I get bitten by something venomous and have no other means, I'm damn well sure I'm going to at least try it. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I also remember the some of the more "fringe" ideas turning out to be true. The stomach ulcer/bacteria link, HPV/Cancer link. It was thought by most western medicine that some more 'holistic' approaches to reduce viral and bacterial counts in order to control cancer were complete bunk, but it turns out they might be a very strong vector.

I can think for myself, and if there is some scientific evidence behind it, I'd like to see the published data (on humans). If he's unwilling to publish said data, I will assume the facts are either fabricated or stretched out of proportion. Scientists publish postulates which are backed up by experimentation. Sounds like he has that data (even if the process is unknown). There's no problem saying "I've observed this behavior when experimentally applying this treatment, and I have one or two ideas of how it could be working."

This gives other doctors and scientists ample information to replicate experiments and determine results. I'll withhold judgement until I know more, but if you know the Doctor personally and even if the report hasn't been published in larger journals, it should be available in a peer review situation. Please Ask Dr. Ron to provide that information as I think it would be an impressive solution for a lot of people. This would also open up further experimentation by others to determine effectiveness against all types of venom and from other stingin/biting creatures like bees, jelly fish, fire ants, wasps, mosquitos, scorpions, and maybe other histamine related items like poison oak, ivy, etc.)

I'm wondering if that snake bite doctor on TV (the one with the long hair and rectangular glasses, I think Discovery or TLC?) knows about this and if he's tried it experimentally. Seems like he's a pretty savvy cat when it comes to snakes, and my guess is that some human somewhere will allow a small electric jolt to see if it cures him right up.

Anecdotally this sounds great. I just want to see some proof. I doubt any other logically thinking reader here would disagree with that standpoint.

And this is absolutely no affront to you Macgyver - I'm glad you brought it to our attention! I hadn't even heard of this. That's one of the other great things about this board.

Paramedic pete, good question.
Massacre, no affront taken. I like proof too!

For those who are medically minded this is the explaination (quoting Ron's report) " In vitro studies have demonstrated loss of enzymatic activity of the coagulase and phosphatase enzymes when placed in an electric field. SDS-Page protein electrophoresis does not show any alterations in the protein of the crude venom following shock. However, upon purification of the phosphoesterases from the crude venom, the "inactivation"of the enzyme by electrical shock disappears." This is from the german experiments that were done.

Also an explaination can be found in The Lancet December 6 1986 page 1335 (available from any good main library). And check out Ron's publication concerning 34 cases of snake bite in The Lancet July 26 1986 page 229.

Just a correction, I assumed the 322 person study was done in the early eighties, although there was no start and finish date given. Ron has informed me that the study period was from 83/84 to around 95.

I now have made a pdf of the lancet publications and the oklahoma state med. ass. journal articles if any members would like copies send me a PM with your e-mail addresses. Warning- It is 12mb though! I m not aware of any links to these publications online. The Publications which they put out are available from the Oklahoma State Medical Association (you have to call).

As far as peer review goes in actual fact the review is funneled through just a couple of people for each area of expertise. If they are not open minded to certain things (history has shown that all the great advances were strongly resisted) Then no further studies can be accepted for peer review. Those of you who are wise, read between the lines here.

This First Aid method seems to work best when used within a short period of time after the bite has been inflicted. The more time that elapses the less local the reaction is and the harder it is to treat effectively. This would be more noticeable with very fast acting venoms. If the blood has stopped clotting it sure would help having some antivenom and benadryl handy!

Something I cannot stress enough is that this process cannot be touted as a treatment or cure for snakebite, but a first- aid treatment only. (this is for legal reasons) That way everyone is covered.

I had problems with my supposed "unlimited" email size limit so I have set up a temporary PRIVATE link to the PDF files of the studies, if any members want to download copies send me a personal message and I will send you the link.

Post the link here, if you could.

I watch a lot of shows on the Discovery Channel... Or rather listen to them while I'm working...

Every once in a while I'll hear something so interesting that I will stop what I'm doing and turn my attention to the television. I pick up a lot of interesting ideas and good information at times. However and somewhat unfortunately, it also means that I miss a lot of show titles, and I forget to check the digital guide for this information, so please forgive the fact that I can' remember the particular show I saw the following on.

There was a show on last year in which they talked about electrical shocks used for venomous spider bites such as the Brow Recluse's. Several doctors were using modified personal protection devices to shock the site of venomous spider bites to neutralize the poison.

They mentioned that scientific studies were being done to test the theory currently, but other than the positive personal accounts given by doctors and patients not much more was given.

In another interesting part of this show it was mentioned that in some cases, over time, Brown Recluse Venom would in some way reactivate and cause damage, even years after the initial bite. So, some of the people interviewed carried their own shockers with them... Weird...

Now my grandfather would wake up, and almost every morning shock himself with an electric fence charger he kept in the kitchen.

Many years later we found out that he had been doing this since he was diagnosed with cancer that he refused treatment for.

The doctors didn't understand how he managed to live so long in what most would call a normal lifestyle with such an advanced case of cancer. And when I say normal, of course I mean minus the self imposed electric shock treatments... HAHAHA

Who knows if those shocks did anything or not, but he claimed he felt better afterward, so we all just kind of cringed and hoped he wouldn't accidentally electrocute himself. <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Granted, I should mention that this man, when told how much he was going to be charged to have some of his teeth pulled so he could be fitted with dentures, went home and pulled those teeth himself with a pair of pliers. OUCH!

DISCLAIMER: Don't try any of the above on yourself just because you read something about it in a forum... In a post by a graphic designer of all things... LOL

Just a correction to my previous post, about how vitamin c works.

No studies have been done as far as I know of concerning the use of vitamin c and snake bite so the mechanism can only be theorised. I was talking to a doctor yesterday, who is much more knowledgable than myself, <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> and he said that the ascorbic acid (vitamin c) would not digest the venom but must be somehow de-activating it also.

Nicodemus, thanks for the info it sounds curious. At least one of the Oaklahoma State Medical Association studies was partially envolving brown recluse spider bite as well. The Mennonites in our area used cattle prods to treat these bites with great sucess.

Also I saw a program on discovery years ago about a rattlesnake roundup in texas where one of the guys got bitten. They showed the paramedics outside with a stun gun shocking him well around the bite. The next day he was back at the roundup with very little wrong with him.

The latest info i have received had been from Dr Sean Bush. For most envenomations of snakes in the US, the primary tx is calm down, clean the wound, seem medical attention...........most of the time an average adult can usuallly withstand a bite. Course it all depends on the amount of venomation injected. He noted the various treatment modalities out there. But for the most part, due to the tachycardic state most victims are in due to the "shock " from being bitten, usually the venom is in full steam by the time anyone could ever consider really trying to reverse anything. Shock therapy and the old familiar saywer extractor both and contribute to as well and hinder the help your seeking. Both can cause localized necrosis of the area due to cellular disruption due to current altering the tissue membranes and or from the negative pressure of a suction device. The only current treament for anything lately i've heard is for Elapid (coral) snakes and that is to keep the wound at heart level and wrap it if its a limb with an ace wrap..
With any form of treament, the best place to start is considering the type of venom itself, wether it be hemotoxic or neurotoxic, etc...
Course if your in "aussie" country and its a Taipan envenomation...........well pray, and start bustin ass toward a hospital!

Ascorbic acid has some really interesting properties that I don't remember completely. It's part of how anti-oxidents work in the first place. Basically, it's "huggy", that's why it neutralizes the taste of iodine (and chlorine, so I've been told) in so treated water. Still looking to see if it just a mask, or if it also effects the absorbtion of the iodine. If it does, that might be the logic behind this theory, but anything taken (oral, DSMO patch, IM or IV) after the bite I just don't see as being into the system fast enough.

Still, I haven't read those papers yet. I'll pass them along to the folks I know who can put things like PhD and MD after thier names.

Actually it is interesting that all the research points to the HVDC shock stopping necrosis of the wound instead of contributing to it. The sawyer extracter however, may do as you say. It is interesting that most of the "experts" who say HVDC for bites is harmful, or won't work, either haven't used the method or have waited way too long before using it.

If you have ever done this to yourself, you realize that the shock treatment when administered properly (read very short bursts) does not cause shock to the system at all. There are bunches of doctors and experts out there who say it is a waste of time, when they have never used HVDC as first aid. Those (mostly doctors who have no other options, ie. in the third world) who do try it, become believers very quickly.


It takes quite a long time for the vitamin c to work against the venom if you take it oraly. However if you inject it under the skin or into the mustle near the bite site it should go into the lymph system. That is exactly where the venom is residing and travelling, so it has a very good chance to mingle with the venom and combat it. Also we are talking about large levels of vitamin c, 15-20 ccs (for a grown person).

There is a good link on the subject of vitamin c (albeit anecdotal) at http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/vitc.htm

For those who are the research types, this is the information of the studies that have been published.

The Lancet, July 26 1986 pp 229
"HIGH VOLTAGE SHOCK TREATMENT FOR SNAKE BITE"

The Lancet, December 6 1986 pp 1335
"BIOLOGICAL BASIS FOR HIGH VOLTAGE SHOCK TREATMENT FOR SNAKE BITE"

Oklahoma State Medical Association journal Vol. 83, January 1990 pp 9-14
"Treatment of Venomous Bites by High Voltage Direct Current" by Carl D. Osborn, MD

Oklahoma State Medical Association journal Vol. 84, June 1991 pp 257-260
"Treatment of Spider Bites by High Voltage Direct Current" by Carl D. Osborn, MD

Oklahoma State Medical Association journal Vol.85, July 1992 pp 331-333
"Multiple HVDC Shocks as First Aid or Therapy for Venomous Bites and Stings" by Carl D. Osborn, MD

I was able to review the scientific articles provided by Macgyver. Seems like such an unlikely idea, doesn't it? I scratched my head over it when I read Macgyver's original post, but at the moment, I'll concede that the method seems to have merit.

I still have some serious reservations, at least based on reading this particular set of articles. The fact that no one really understands how high voltage direct current (HVDC) affects the venom is one. There are theories given and observations, but no definitive explanations yet. And the second is that none of these articles reports the results of truly scientific experiments, in the sense that you compare people with bites who were treated and not treated with HVDC. Or even lack of a good animal study that supports HVDC. Those are pretty serious gaps in our knowledge and without filling in those holes, the medical community will never accept this technique.

However, the fact that Drs. Guderian and Osborn have reported on successfully treating over 600 patients is hard to ignore, too. And based on that and the fact that even a prestigious medical journal like the Lancet would even consider mentioning it in its pages, if I were bitten in some jungle by a lethal snake and days away from the nearest hospital, I think I would give it a try. On the other hand, if I simply saw an infomercial on TV where the guy claims to have successfully treated 600 people with his patent-pending electric venon zapper, I would pass.

So, Macgyver, you say you've done this a number of times. What kind of set up are you using? And since I've never been shocked with a stun gun or cattle prod, how does it feel? Like the shock from static electricity? In one of Dr. Osborn's articles, a poor kid was stung by a wasp on the bridge of his nose and his face was swelling badly. The modified stun gun was used on his face! Now that's gotta hurt! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The most scientific study which was done was in Germany and I have been unable to obtain a copy of their report. Their finding is what I posted above as to the effect on the venom.

Unfortunately I don't see there being any further studies done in the US for some time to come. We are the great land of protecting interests. All I will say is there are several very powerful people who have it in their power to stop any further publishing of this type of study for peer review and have done so. They have also been able to stop funding for further research. There is much politics that goes on in the scientific and medical community, unfortunately. The only other option would be a privately funded study (very expensive). To quote the great scientist Max Planck:
"An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: What does happen is that the opponents gradually die out."



Stun guns work very well for this purpose, however they are a little bit of overkill for this task, only 20 kv is needed and stunguns often provide 100 kv. The stungun causes the muscles all around to tense up which is rather an unusual feeling. There is also an involuntary jerk away from the sourse of the shock. Once the shock stops there is really no after effect, it doesn't hurt or cramp. Naturally the shock hurts more in areas of the body where there are more nerves (hands, face etc.) and much less on the arms and legs.

When you get a sting or bite and there is quite a bit of swelling the pain sensors are usually maxed out, and so the shock doesn't hurt quite as much. That being said, the voltage does often effect a larger area than the area of swelling. So you will definately feel the shock.

I can't say how a cattle prod feels, but I assume it is something like a stun gun.

I use a unit that was made by a missionary, who used to live in South Carolina. He made them for missionaries going into remote places of the world. It consists of an ammo box with a small engine flywheel and ignition coil (from a mower or whipper snipper) and a hand crank. It has two leads coming from the coil which carries the shock.

These units are a little cumbersome but they will always work when needed, as opposed to a stungun which has batteries to go dead. Also stun guns are banned over here in Australia, along with everything else. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My unit feels just like shocking yourself with a lawn mower (pulling the starter cord) Naturally the faster the pulses are together the more intense it is. It is not too bad actually, however the finger tips hurt a little, as anyone knows who has been accidentally shocked by a lawn mower. It is rather easy to hold the electrodes while receiving a moderate shock without feeling too much discomfort. Each pulse is rather like receiving a static electric shock.

A car ignition system is much hotter and will work well but is overkill ( feels like a stungun) I would use it if I had nothing else though.

I am happy to be able to say that there is a Wikidot page up now, which I am an admin for, that shows many of the papers referring to the electroshock therapy method. It also shows the devices that have been used and proposed devices, which are being worked on.

http://venomshock.wikidot.com/

The site is still being worked on and we will be adding new information, reviews and summaries of research. We are also adding information about the studies which did not have success and possible reasons why.

I would welcome your feedback on the site and any recommendations are greatly appreciated. I respect your criticism.

Macgyver.

I've dealt with venomous animals for years and as yet have only been bitten by a very few. The one that stands out the most was the bite from a Scolopendra subspinipes (very large centipede). This is the only species with a human death attributed to it. It bit me three times on the back when it got loose and ran up my arm. As soon as I got it loose and back in it's container, I went straight to the bite reports on arachnoboards to see what to expect. Most of the posts started out the same way "The most excrutiating pain I've ever felt" or "Don't get bitten by one of these". One guy even said he would rather get bit by a black widow again than take a shot from one of these again. After getting myself prepared for the worst, I was surprpised when not much happened. A little localized numbing and a little stiffness. There was a scar for almost a year that itched like crazy and stayed swollen most of the time.

My point with that story is that different people react in different ways to different substances. In my case, it could've been a dry bite but that wouldn't explain the presence of swelling at the site for may months after the bite. I'm sure it wasn't a full blown bite however there was some venom injected at least and there was almost no pain. In fact, the bite itself didn't even hurt even though it drew blood.

The differences in tolerance of the toxins between individuals isn't th only thing to note. The amount of venom and the toxicity of the venom is an important thing to consider. One of the guys I used to deal with used to get bitten pretty regularly and never sought medical treatment for any of the bites. After being bitten by an eyelash viper once, he told me that he would either get better or die. He got better and showed very little sign that he was in pain at the time.

Here in Alabama, there are very few snake bites to worry about for the average healthy adult. rattlesnakes are quite significant, but I've not heard of any confirmed fatalities attributed directly to the snakebite itself in a very long time. As for the spiders, I've never been able to find even a single case of fatality attributed directly to a black widow bite and brown recluses are equally dubious. That is not to say they are not nasty, the bites can cause extensive necrosis which can be permanantly disfiguring.

The whole thing with venom research is, it's very difficult to test due to endless variables in conditions. People have different reactions to the same venoms, animals aren't likely to be helpful by administering controlled doses of their venom, not to mention that age and health play a significant role in how a person reacts, and the fact that every venom is a different mix of nasties that can be different even in the same species.

I think this should be tested more thouroughly (as well as can be) but considering all the variables, there is no way to conclusively say that since it works on one group, that it will work for all. If it does do more good than traditional methods however, it should be implemented more often.

Took a brief visit to the Wikidot. Looks nicely done and shows the drawings I have seen--I guess from the scientific articles Macgyver kindly sent to me way back when when this subject originally came up.

High voltage DC and snake bites...sounds crazy, and although I'm always a skeptic in general, there's just enough evidence to say that it just might have merit. Unfortunately, I don't really see anything new on this site to change my mind, unless I tried reading some more of the actual articles referenced, but I think I've read the main ones already.

I hope more research can be done in this area. Sounds promising, however it's always very hard to do definitive human research on subjects where lethal compounds are involved. There just aren't enough "accidental" bites geographically close enough to a researcher, plus, witholding something like antivenin, when one exists, would be unethical. Unfortunately, trying HVDC + antivenin then makes skeptics say that positive outcomes were due to the antivenin. Can't win either way, unfortunately.

Macgyver, have you heard of anyone trying HVDC with other types of venomous creatures, like jellyfish? After watching a TV show about the lethal and excruciating pain of the sting of the tiny Irukandji jellyfish, anything that can help would be a great boon.

You are right Boacrow, there are many variables and animal studies are just about useless, only the very large pigs and goats that were used in tests were able to show a localised reaction. The studies that do show results are the human studies, where the reaction is localized. In the study from Ecuador the death rate went from 5% down to 0 and the morbidity went from 20% to 1%, that was in the same group of the population in a government sanctioned study.

Arney, at the moment there is not a lot more information of studies that you can read on there, than I sent you. We have more information which will be going up shortly. There will be summaries of studies etc. with references to the publications, and where we have permission we will put up the full text publication. There are still many more references there than I gave you before.

I look forward to studies being done in the US in the future as well. However, there have been trials which have been done all around the world in different countries that show this method works. It is just that if it isn't done in the US many doctors won't beleive it or take notice.

I am not sure about the jelly fish, Portugese Man O War etc., I have no personal experience with one, and at this point I am not aware of any trials being done. I have heard whispers about it working but I don't personally know of any accounts. I will have to ask the other administrator about what he knows. I would not be surprised if it does work.

Macgyver.

One way you might be able to perform your own test of sorts, although not very scientific, and certainly not very orthodox, is to join a forum that involves people who handle venomous animals and ask them to test it out for you. Just give them the criteria for the study and ask that IF anyone gets bitten, they try it out while waiting for real medical assistance. I would stress that it is not a substite for medical treatment, but you are interested in finding out the immediate after effects of a shock treatment for various bites. I'm tempted to try it out the next time I get bitten by something. I don't handle anything deadly much anymore so it's unlikely that I would die from anything I might handle at the moment. As I said, the results might not be exactly scientific, but they will be a good estimate of whether it works or not as the people in these types of forums often have bite reports and they are more likely to get bitten than most.

I am a member of a forum for tarantulas and other venomous invertebrates and they frequently get bitten. I might post it there and see what the consensus is. They may already have a post on it somewhere. I'll check and see.

I beleive you are correct about the voltage on the cattle prod, all the trials were done with 20kv or up to 100kv. A small internal combustion engine is the best source of HVDC for this purpose, especially if you need penetration of the electricity.

I don't have personal experience with marine envenomation, I am still waiting to hear back from a friend about it. I will let you know when I find out.

Macgyver.

Hot water for sting ray stings, eh? That's a new one. But does the hot water actually counter or inactivate the ray's toxin, or is it more for symptom relief? Like the various home remedies for jellyfish stings?

Too bad hot water doesn't work for all poisonous marine animals. As I mentioned in another post, if HVDC could treat the sting from something like the tiny but deadly Irukandji jellyfish, that would be a great achievement. On the TV show I saw about the Irukandji, a couple researchers went into the ocean to collect some specimens. They wore wetsuits and covered up all the exposed skin that they could, but both of them still got stung. One of them was stung by tiny broken tentacles (practically invisible) clinging to her wet suit while she was removing her gear. They were both in excruciating, whole body pain--one for days, the other for weeks. Even the maximum dose of morphine barely took the edge off. Wow, sucks to be them.

Ounce per ounce, sounds like Irukandji can inflict more pain on a person than any other creature out there. Well, and also kill you.

From WebMD on stingray strikes:
[color:"blue"] An easy and important initial treatment that can be started (sometimes at the scene of the injury) is immersion of the injured extremity in hot water (preferably 110-115°F). The water should be as hot as the patient can tolerate but should not cause burns. The water should be exchanged for more hot water as it cools, for an immersion duration of 30-90 minutes.
Very little has been written about the toxin left in wounds after a stingray injury. It is known that the stingray toxin is a protein and is very sensitive to heat. The patient should obtain very rapid symptomatic improvement with heat as the poison denatures and becomes neutralized. Some thought exists that the protein does not truly denature but that some sort of gateway effect occurs on the nerve conduction. Whatever the truth is regarding how heat works, it is a rapid, effective treatment to reduce pain almost instantaneously.
In addition, some practitioners also infiltrate the wound with a local anesthetic, such as lidocaine (lignocaine) or the longer-acting bupivacaine. Occasionally, oral or parenteral narcotics may also be given.
After the toxin has been deactivated by the hot water, attention to local wound care should begin because it is not uncommon for part of the stinging apparatus to break off in the wound.
[/color]

I'm not up on my toxins but would ths work for snake or spider toxins.

almost everything in this thread talks about Mocasins, Copperheads, and Rattlers. would this work for a coral snake bite also? I know the venom works in a totally different way.

There are some who say that the electro shock thing is not a good idea...

Here is one...

As for me, the jury is still out...

Hmm, this description from WebMD is similar to the information about HVDC--no one really knows what's happening. There are theories, but apparently little or no definitive scientific evidence to explain how it works. Nevertheless, with both hot water and HVDC, experience seems to demonstrate that there is some merit to the method.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure which treatment seems more far fetched at first blush--using hot water or electro-shock to treat a bite/sting. Science can often be surprising and weird. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That's the treatment the hospital down on Galveston Island, Texas uses for stingray strikes. I haven't needed it but two of my friends did (seperate occasions). The both bring chemical handwarmers to the beach with them now for this very reason.

-Blast

Hi Old Bald Guy , it is good you are keeping an open mind. Much of what they say there is misleading and some is just not true, notice that they talk in generalities, could , may and apt to. They have not even tried it themselves or talked to anyone who has used HVDC in an appropriate manner. The points that were mentioned there were not issues at all with the ongoing trials in Ecuador.

Great care must be taken when using HVDC (read very short shocks) on the head and around the heart area. I don't recommend either, (especially from a stungun or car spark lead). That being said, it takes much more voltage than is necessary for this purpose, to cause problems to the heart and head. Is seems that it is a long duration of the shock that causes problems with the heart.

There are many out there who say that it doesn't work or that it is downright dangerous, but they are just parroting off what they have heard from someone else. Many medical "experts" don't do any research themselves but will accept the conclusions of any "official" small animal study without examining the merits or method of those studies. And those same "experts" will ignore 100% sucessful human trials done in another country, because it has not been done in the US. This is at best unscientific.

Just because there are lab tests which have been published does not mean that the conclusion was correct. Just think of the debate that has raged over weather to use a tourniquet or light pressure, or to cut and suck the wound with a snake bite.

For this reason, and the fact that many people will not take the time to read the studies for and against the subject (or are able to understand them), I will be going through them and writing reviews and summaries of the information for the site.

I find the hot water thing very interesting, I know that some people use a special little heater that looks like a lighter to heat the area of bee and wasp stings. It heats up the skin warm enough to deactivate the venom but not enough to burn. It really does work. Bee stings are similar to snake venom, so it is possible that it may help, I have no experience with this. I think that as the venom of a snake goes further in than a bee sting it may not be treated as effectively by heat.

Nighthiker I couldn't agree with you more.


Macgyver.

Coral snakes are elapids just like cobras. They have a different type of venom than viperidae (rattlesnakes, moccasins and copperheads) although it is still a lethal concotion of protiens. I'm not sure how it would react to a good dose of current. I'm not really familiar with the western species (Arizona coral snake) but the eastern coral is extraordinarily difficult to find. In fact, of all my years hunting snakes, I have only seen one in the wild and it was a roadkill. Considering the uncommon nature of human/coral snake interaction, the fact that a full grown adult is very small compared to most species, and the fact that they have short, fixed fangs and therefore have to chew the venom into the victim, I would say the likelihood of being bitten by one is about as likely as winning the lottery while being struck by lightning during a full solar eclipse while watching the aurora boriealis in Hawaii on February 29th. Just kidding. It is highly unlikely that someone would get bitten by one unless they actually pick one up or stick their hand somewhere it doesn't belong. I think the most likely way to find out about elapids are to find someone in a country where they are prevalent or ask someone at the zoo to let one bite them so you can hit them with a stun gun. I'm sure the likelyhood of that is pretty slim too. If you find out though, I would love to know.

I would think that hot water would have no effect on snake or spider venom since they are ectotherms that don't become active until the temperature rises. The fact that they are most active when the mercury rises would indicate that heat wouldn't have an effect although I could be wrong. Snakes have enzymes in their stomachs that digest their food and if the temperature iisn't high enough, the food will rot in their stomachs. So at least for snakes and spiders, heat might actually help the venom along (just a thought, I really have no idea whether it would or not).

Boacrow, Ron Guderian said that the HVDC method had been used with success with Neurotoxic snakes.

Macgyver.

"... keeping an open mind..."

My mind is so open that sometimes I am accused of being an airhead. I remember years ago reading about the outboard motor shock thing being used in South America, and thought "wow, what a deal." If I were ever bitten by a nasty one (as almost happened to me with a fer-de-lance years ago), 'specially if hours or days from a hospital, I would be zapping myself for all I was worth. You can't argue with success. I just wanted to throw in something from the other side of the fence...

I generally do not use absolutes, but in this case I will say categorically: DO NOT USE HEAT (immersion or otherwise) for a snake/insect bite in which the toxin’s effect is systemic or away from the site of invenomnation. Applying heat to invenomation site for toxins that will affect the heart, nervous system or are hemotoxin in nature will only hasten the effects and could be lethal.

Pete

Pete, thanks for stressing that, it's a very good point. The only time I have seen heat used is with VERY localised stings from bees etc. and it was very localised heat. If the venom has become systemic, icreasing the circulation could be a really bad thing. It would also make it harder to treat with HVDC, where a localised reaction is a must. I must agree with you DO NOT USE HEAT ON A SNAKE BITE <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Macgyver.